A few good and a few dumb questions of SC

[tlars]

I think I read enough here to be able to ask a few questions without embarrassing myself. I ordered a Flying cloud FB and a Mercedes GLE 450 to tow it. I appreciated the comments suggesting we will likely move up in size in a few years but we spent many years sailing the great lakes and a 40 ft sailboat has less usable space than a 23 FB. We are dreaming of the queen island bed and bathroom that's absolutely spacious. We pack light so I'm comfortable with the Mercedes capability. But it's not too late to cancel so again 700 tw 7700 TC. Payoad 1623 and curb weight of 4891. My wife dog and I weigh 330 and don't plan on having much more than lunch and rain gear in the car.

We plan to use the Flying cloud as a travel trailer as opposed to camping. We expect many one nighters so it would be nice if coupling and uncoupling was easy.

I'll buy a Hensley or Pro Pride if I can't get sway undercontrol by other means.

Following your asdvise I contacted Can Am RV. They approved of the 450/23FB compination and recomended a Eaz liff elite with TWO sway control units.

I recently read a Campaddict.com review of hitches. They really trashed the add on sway control packages and favored the Equalizer among others.

So here are the questions.

If friction is used for sway control, should one not have a way top turn it off?

Do any of these hitches use sacrificial material or metal for friction. It seems like most rely on steel on steel.

Husky looks like they have a hitch similar to Equalizer but my application fits the Husky better. Are they truly comparable? are there others?

Many hitch companies have products vary similar to EAZ liff Elite with sway control. The sway control units look nearly identical. Is there one better or are these units pretty much the same.

Is Can-Am's recommendation for two sway control units out of the ordinary? Is this a red flag? Why don't I see any hitch companies recommending this?

Should I be concerned about ground clearance? No plans for off roading or lifting the trailer suspension.

What is the frame cross sectional size for a FC 23FB

The manufactures of the add on sway controls recomend backing into a jack knife to check clearances. I assume this has to do with geometery of the A frame. Will this be an issue on the Flying Cloud? Anyone using these on a Flying Cloud?

My dealer sells only equalizer hitches. I would assume they would install anything I want. Right?

It makes sense to me that there should be independent control of the Sway control and the Weight distribution. Am I wrong?

I assume that the most flexible bars as light as possible and yet do the job will put the least stress on the trailer. Right or wrong?

Round bars are more flexible? wider range of motion without spiking?

I don't mind installing several hitches to get it right. Are there dealers that would alow me to exchange hitches if my first choice does not work out?

Thanks in advance for the help.

[dbj216]

Gee, I didn't know what SC was. Now I know what you wanted to discuss. Here is my experiences from towing my Airstream for 15 years.

Do any of these hitches use sacrificial material or metal for friction. It seems like most rely on steel on steel.

I've never seen one.

Is Can-Am's recommendation for two sway control units out of the ordinary? Is this a red flag? Why don't I see any hitch companies recommending this?

I've never seen this. Why not just install a Hensly or ProPride and forget sway all together.

My dealer sells only equalizer hitches. I would assume they would install anything I want. Right?

You can likely install the hitch yourself. Dealer shop rates are expensive. Dealers would likely install the hitch of your choice for a good price.

It makes sense to me that there should be independent control of the Sway control and the Weight distribution. Am I wrong?

The bolt one friction slides do give independent control.
Maybe this is what Can Am was referring to.

I assume that the most flexible bars as light as possible and yet do the job will put the least stress on the trailer. Right or wrong?

Weight distribution to transfer tongue weight to the front axle of the tow vehicle takes a bar and a lift adequate to do the job. The required load would be the same independent of the bars used. Smaller bars give more spring action.

I don't mind installing several hitches to get it right. Are there dealers that would allow me to exchange hitches if my first choice does not work out?

Note likely. The hitch would become used once you drove 100 yards with it. You might be able to sell it privately.

I've towed with a Reese Dual Cam, a Equalizer, a Blue Ox and a ProPride. I like the ProPride the best as there is NO sway. The others are good too. Reese and Equalizer are rather noisy in my experience. The Blue Ox is my second choice. Maybe others will do a better job of answering your questions. Some of the questions I have no experience with.

[CBWELL]

I have used a Husky Centerline for several years and love the hitch. Very stable and good sway control. Only reason I went to a Hensley is because brother-in-law gave it to me. Price was right!! The Husky has only one downfall, and that is when unhitching, your TV and trailer must be almost perfectly in line. If I had to unhitch at an angle, I removed the torsion bars before backing in.

[Bubba L]

Originally Posted by dbj216

Gee, I didn't know what SC was. Now I know what you wanted to discuss. Here is my experiences from towing my Airstream for 15 years.

Do any of these hitches use sacrificial material or metal for friction. It seems like most rely on steel on steel.

I've never seen one.

Is Can-Am's recommendation for two sway control units out of the ordinary? Is this a red flag? Why don't I see any hitch companies recommending this?

I've never seen this. Why not just install a Hensly or ProPride and forget sway all together.

My dealer sells only equalizer hitches. I would assume they would install anything I want. Right?

You can likely install the hitch yourself. Dealer shop rates are expensive. Dealers would likely install the hitch of your choice for a good price.

It makes sense to me that there should be independent control of the Sway control and the Weight distribution. Am I wrong?

The bolt one friction slides do give independent control.
Maybe this is what Can Am was referring to.

I assume that the most flexible bars as light as possible and yet do the job will put the least stress on the trailer. Right or wrong?

Weight distribution to transfer tongue weight to the front axle of the tow vehicle takes a bar and a lift adequate to do the job. The required load would be the same independent of the bars used. Smaller bars give more spring action.

I don't mind installing several hitches to get it right. Are there dealers that would allow me to exchange hitches if my first choice does not work out?

Note likely. The hitch would become used once you drove 100 yards with it. You might be able to sell it privately.

I've towed with a Reese Dual Cam, a Equalizer, a Blue Ox and a ProPride. I like the ProPride the best as there is NO sway. The others are good too. Reese and Equalizer are rather noisy in my experience. The Blue Ox is my second choice. Maybe others will do a better job of answering your questions. Some of the questions I have no experience with.

David, fyi, the Reese Steady-Flex does come with friction pads made from the same material automotive brakes have. We ordered a couple of sets of the pads for our Reese when we purchased it 6 years ago. The original ones still have plenty of pad left. Take care and keep an eye on the fires East of Estes. Take care

[waninae39]

we used the same as CANAM states now for the last 4 years

sway is an analog control
each time you put it on you decide how much by turning the handle.

if we can hear it groaning a bit, we know it's working. no groan, then not enough

[Adventure.AS]

Eaz-Lift works well for us. I prefer to keep the WD a separate function from SC. For example, in slippery road conditions, fixed sway control (equalizer type hitches) would try and keep your trailer from tracking properly behind your TV in a curve. If the road conditions are bad do to rain or snow you should be going slowly enough, anyway, that you don't need sway control. In those circumstances I undo the friction on the sway bars. When arriving at a campground I also remove the sway bars to reduce the groaning that waninae39 mentioned and for reversing the trailer.

[GCinSC2]

tlars,

Equal-I-Zer offers L bracket jackets. https://www.equalizerhitch.com/manua...racket-jackets It's a piece of a hard non metallic material that the bar rides on while turning etc. I've had them for several years they are not worn out.

Just a small clarification on CBWELL's comment. Husky offered a CENTERLINE hitch that had compression cylinders in the head to provide control and then later they introduced a CENTERLINE TS that does not have the compression cyl's. It looks like an Equal-I-Zer type. The original CENTERLINE has been discontinued, I asked Husky just recently. I can see the straight ahead connect disconnect comment on the original CENTERLINE.

Good luck figuring out a hitch system.

Gary

[djb75]

Like Bubba, we use the Steadi-Flex that came with our 27' GT. The friction pads make a bit of noise at low speeds (probably higher speeds as well, but I can't hear them), but seem to work very well and are replaceable. As Bubba also mentioned, they appear to last for quite a while - but are less than $100 to replace.

[BayouBiker]

Trailer and hitch dealers who's market is predominated by customers who want to use smaller lighter vehicles and who want to approach and exceed the OEM capacity guidelines, generally accomplish this by recommending excessively light tongue weights, very stiff hitch mounts with no excess play or flex and short ball overhang and only enough WD to keep the rear axle under its load limit. All this to reduce the significant risk of oversteer present with the small, light, short wheelbase tow vehicles. A light hitch is also recommended for the same reason. Light tongue weights on US designed travel trailers dramatically increases risk of sway, particularly above 55 mph so they recommend hitches capable of significant sway damping and rely on the rarity of extraordinary conditions to avoid the situations sway damping and lighter tongue wieghts can't address. One way to achieve that is by doubling sway control components and thus damping on a hitch where sway force is independent of WD tension. The EAZ Lift Elite is light, and fits this approach very well. Hitch manufacturers don't seem follow this same marketing model.

Ground clearance is good for 14% grade change swales and 8% grade change camber. So you just have to watch some drainage swales entering gas stations.

The 23' uses a 6 inch frame rail.

[DCPAS]

Originally Posted by tlars

Do any of these hitches use sacrificial material or metal for friction. It seems like most rely on steel on steel.

The EAZ Lift Recurve models use brake friction material for sway control which is adjustable by changing tightness of a bolt acting on a collar around the shaft under the hitch ball. I am not suggesting that it is better or worse than any other system. I am just responding to the question.

[TG Twinkie]

The Andersen WD system uses a friction material. It is located in the "V" shaped socket which holds the tapered shaft of the ball mount.

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

The 23' uses a 6 inch frame rail.

Oops, typo, it is 5" frame rails

[switz]

We acquired in October of 2012 a 2013 25FB International Serenity in Los Angles. I had taken my 2007 Mercedes ML320 CDI turbo diesel to CanAm in London, Ontario, Canada (3 days each way to cover the 2,200 miles one way trip and a day there). They installed a 2” square steel tube to reinforce the factory receiver, shortened and slightly bent the Hensley Arrow stinger to preload the weight distribution system with less travel of the screw jacks.

The tongue weight in Airstream literature was 833 pounds. With the Hensley Arrow and a Tekonsha Prodigy RF brake control system installed along with full fresh water tank and propane tanks, a 150 watt solar panel on the roof and the street side and rear awning upgrade, actual tongue weight was now 1,150 pounds sitting on the dealership lot.

California has a 55 mph speed limit for towing. I found that was the appropriate speed for the 3.0L diesel and a seven speeed transmission. I was able to climb out of Palm Springs’s steep ascent east bound on I-10 headed to Phoenix in 4th gear and 3,500 rpm while maintaining 55 mph.

Loaded for camping and after moving tools to the rear to counterbalance the front bed system, the tongue weight settled down to 1,175 pounds. The scaled weight was then 6,900 pounds before groceries. The Mercedes was not pleased with this much mass even at the 55 mph. We acquired a 2012 Ram 2500HD Cummins diesel that cured the towing issue for the 25FB as well as when we traded for a 2014 31’ Classic that scales 9,200 pounds with an initial tongue weight of 1,375 pounds. We reduced the tongue weight to 1,175 pounds a year later when we removed the four Lifeline AGM batteries from the hitch and put a 600 amp-hour lithium battery under the front sofa.

I had kept the Hensley Arrow hitch system and the Tekonsha brake system when we traded for the Classic (which got a ProPride hitch that is Jim Hensley’s second design). When we purchased a 2015 23D International Serenity, I replaced the stock 14” tires and wheels with 15” SenDel wheels and 15” Michelin tires and installed the Tekonsha brake system and Hensley Arrow hitch. The tow to CanAm was uneventful and Andy fine tuned the car and trailer. It drove like it was on rails. I proceeded to our modification shop in Texas and when the dust settled, the trailer scales 6,069 pounds camping loaded with a tongue weight of 929 pounds. The Mercedes was happy with this combination and we still limited towing speed to 55 mph max speed. The over 6% down grade we faced going each way through Salt River Canyon getting to and from Phoenix was no issue. The posted speed was 35 mph. So second gear worked for the ascent at 3,500 rpm and NO brake pedal use was necessary in 2nd for the descent due to the Diesel engine back pressure.

The non-disclosed design defect in the Mercedes 3.0L turbo diesel is that there is a failure of the gaskets of the oil cooler in the back of the valley of the engine between the cylinders. It comes to light at about 75,000 miles for a $3,500 repair to replace 25 dollars worth of gaskets. This happened again around 150,000 miles and was starting to appear at 205,000 miles. The car was not worth a $3,500 repair in May of 2020. The issue was just starting to appear in my wife’s 2009 E320 CDI diesel sedan at just over 70,000 miles, so we traded off her car at about the same time. This defect is chronic in all of the Sprinters with this engine and there are significant legal issues for Mercedes.

The Mercedes gas twin turbo 4 cylinder engine would not be my choice for towing. It will run very hot and hopefully last the 50,000 mile warranty.

YMMV

[tlars]

Thank you so much for the help. There are a few question unanswered so I thought I would condense things. Again Thank you all!

Originally Posted by tlars

If friction is used for sway control, should one not have a way to turn it off?

Husky looks like they have a hitch similar to Equalizer but my application fits the Husky better. Are they truly comparable? are there others?

Many hitch companies have products vary similar to EAZ liff Elite with sway control. The sway control units look nearly identical. Is there one better or are these units pretty much the same.

The manufactures of the add on sway controls recomend slowly backing into a jack knife to check clearances. I assume this has to do with geometery of the A frame. Will this be an issue on the Flying Cloud? Anyone using these on a Flying Cloud?

It makes sense to me that there should be independent control of the Sway control and the Weight distribution. Am I wrong?

I assume that the most flexible bars as light as possible and yet do the job will put the least stress on the trailer. Right or wrong?

Are round bars are more flexible? wider range of motion without spiking (greatly increasing their force)?


Thanks in advance for the help.

[BayouBiker]

I can't think of any significant technical justifications for disabling sway damping except perhaps on smooth ice, but there are plenty of good reasons not to tow on ice to begin with. Wet surface traction does not decline sufficiently to justify disabling sway protection unless you're running bald tires, but that also is a separate issue...

There are structural and design reasons to disable some friction designs while backing and while traversing uneven ground.

Husky makes a "Center-line" hitch quite (or as you said truly) comparable to the Equalizer but is an improvement in that the bars are tapered. Blue Ox also released a tapered bar design very similar to the Husky. Husky also sells a design very comparable to the EAZ Lift Elite. Curt does also, as do other manufacturers. All of these are good hitches. And as you suspected there are others. Some are cheaper knock off copies that I can't vouch for.

It is quite possible the friction bars will have clearance issues for some tow vehicle while backing. It very much needs to be tested.

Independent WD and sway control is not useful for most set ups because sway and WD desirability both depend most strongly on tongue weight. The strong exception applies to most but not all tow vehicles near and over manufacturers recommended towing capacity.

Correct. Flexible bars just heavy enough to do the job that don't require excessive displacement (more than 7-8 inches) are far and away best.

Bar flexibility is a function of the cross sectional moment of Inertia. Thus bars that concentrate material near the bar axis are more flexible. Solid round bars the most. then solid square, then solid rectangular (or flip this depending on how the long side is oriented with respect to tension), then hollow round, then hollow square which are the stiffest when the bar weight is equal.

[SeaJim]

We have had an EAZlift Elite 600 lb mount with one antisway bar for our Touareg TDI and FC 23FB for the last two years. We have been very happy with the TV/TT combination, and have had no issues with the hitch WD system. After much hemming and hawing and review of threads here, we did contact CanAm and followed their recommendations. We also remove the antisway for tight maneuvering. We haven't had any significant sway incidents, but plan to add a second AS device and evaluate the difference since it's a cheap and easy add.



Re your question about light bars, yes light bars are preferable - actually stress on the TV is usually the bigger concern, especially when hitching to an SUV rather than a truck.


There are a lot of solutions out there to accommodate all the possible TV/TT combinations. Sounds like you've got a good handle on focusing on your specific setup and you've gotten some good advice, I'd go with it and move on to the next pressing issue

[tlars]

Thank you all for the great information.

I'm going to go over my choice, not because I feel I have some great insight. Just the opposite, just to get feedback on anything I misunderstood.

Hensley/ProPride: Easy hitch and unhitch was a requirement. I'll go to this if I can't solve sway any other way.
Anderson hitch: I feel this would likely work in my light application but their instructions to just eyeball the weight transfer goes against everything I've learned reading these forums.

Equal-i-zer: This is what my dealer sells and has quoted for my package. No question that it is tried and true. It would do the job, make some noise. I used their "find your hitch" and I could not get my application to fit their 600 lb tongue weight 6000 lb GVWR model. Next step up is 1000/10000. Seems way too big of a jump. So I pass on this pending feedback from my dealer or here telling me others use the 600/6000 hitch for the FC 23FB.

There seem to be many suppliers that have similar products to the Equal-i-zer that fit my application better (700 lb tongue weight) I was ready to go with one of them until I asked Can-Am RV why they did not recommend the "Recurve"


They said they tested it years ago and like the Eaz Lift elite with sway control as it has more adjustment.

I also Like Reese straight line with cams but it seems there is no independent adjustment for Sway and WD. Just less noise than the hitches using the Equal-I-zer concept.

So I'll go with Can-AM RV with the Eaz lift elite with two SC units even though I can't go there to have them make adjustments if needed.

Brian, Can Am does not recommend excessively light tongue weights and only enough WD to keep the rear axle under the load limits for smaller/lighter TV. They believe each corner of the TV must be measured and brought back very close to the original height. I do believe they agree with your comment on stiff hitch mounts.

I can't believe it but I will likely buy one of the most important pieces of safety equipment from Walmart as they are dealers for Eaz-lift. That is if my AS dealer can't buy from Camco.

[BayouBiker]

Perhaps excessively light was too vague. However many many folks including installers promote tongue weights on the lower side of the industry recommended range of 10-15% and it is unfortunate because travel trailers and especially Airstreams for the US market are much more stable at 15% tongue weight particularly for speeds above 55 mph. These people do actively advocate taking deliberate steps to reduce tongue weight as part of a strategy to avoid overloading the axle on vehicles that are not able to competently handle the native loads without significant support from various aftermarket modifications and components. The end result is nobody knows the real limit of capability for these vehicles. We don't know what with any precision what conditions these combinations will exceed their ability to manage trailer mass and go out of control.

Your choice of the EAZ Lift Elite is good.

I don't quite understand your criticism of Andersen's instructions as all hitch manufacturers and most experienced users of WD hitches will suggest using vehicle attitude as the primary indicator for proper set up. Really, you could fault them for being more honest about how most actually do get it close. Then those who want it optimized will fine tune it by driving and adjusting. Those who want objective evidence and some degree of confirmation they have a good set up will head to the CAT, but none of these techniques will tell you you have it spot on, to do that you have to test it to failure. This applies equally well to any WD hitch. I'm not faulting you for deciding against Andersen, I am just pointing out that this is a very valid method of setting up WD.

[TonyaJLong]

We have been towing your exact TV/TT combination since August -- a 2021 Flying Cloud 23FB being pulled by a 2020 MBZ GLE 450. Honestly, I studied but not quite as voraciously as my learned colleagues on this and many other hitch-related threads. We chose a 600/6,000lb Equal-i-zer hitch (and a Prodigy RF brake controller, btw -- let me know if you want the secret handshake for getting that thing to work). Oh, and one more *random* thing -- McKesh Towing Mirrors from Hensley -- nothing else fits on the new MBZ mirrors or is wide enough to give proper viewing of the back of the AS.

We have a similar "profile" to yours -- weekend warrior types unlikely to find ourselves lost in the most remote sections of the Sierras. So far the MBZ has been beautiful -- we've only been 3hrs outside the Bay Area, but the engine has barely crested 2,000 rpms. The Equal-i-zer bars were LOUD (omg)... but seem to be settling in. Everyone said they were "doing their job" and that in time they'd quieten down. The "hitch jackets" people mention were helpful ($20) as is extra lubrication on the hitch ball. We did develop a routine for removing the bars when navigating tight spots -- mostly when backing into tight spots at a campsite. Honestly, I believe we may have done it as much for noise reduction (and not calling attention to the newbies trying to back in!) as we did for the loosening of the turning ability of the trailer. I guess the important point on that is -- the setup was so easy, either of us could jump out and pull the pins and grab the bars off... so Equal-i-zer definitely has been an easy to work with product for us.

You won't make a bad decision... Equal-i-zer and up are all very good products. And with the type of use it seems you will be doing, you might not be in the worst case situations that warrant the upper-end of the highest echelon of equipment -- but that's clearly your call. Mostly, I just wanted to offer a "connection" to people who have your TV/TT configuration. A few months ago, it was very difficult for me to find anyone with a GLE 450 to get insights from (I found limited but important info over on the MBZ Forums, btw), so feel free to reach out via private message if you have any questions. Good luck -- and have fun!

[Ladyfish]

"I can't believe it but I will likely buy one of the most important pieces of safety equipment from Walmart as they are dealers for Eaz-lift. That is if my AS dealer can't buy from Camco."

Suggest that you check your local directories for "trailer hitch installation" and you might find an independent trailer hitch specialist. They will typically install for "free" or "near free" if you purchase your hitch from them. Since they specialize in trailer hitches they understand towing requirements, issues and regulations. There are several independent shops within 25 miles of us and you may find the same. Much less expensive than the dealer and more confidence than Walmart.