Visit our Popular Forums

silvernewbie · 02-29-2004, 04:19 PM

My wife and I are considering getting back into trailering after 25 years without one and we need all the guidance we can get.

I've been reading lots of posts on this and other forums and the more I read the more perplexed I get. Our tow vehicle is a 2003 Toyota 4Runner Sport V8. Most posts referencing 4Runners are refering to pre 2003, six cylinder models and their specs. are different than ours.

To start with, Toyota's own information is contradictory. Their web site states that the towing capacity of our TV is 5,000 lbs, with 500 lbs. max tongue weight, however, our owners manual says 7,000 lbs. and 700 lbs. That's dilemma one.

Let me preface my thoughts with the fact that whichever trailer we might end up with. we would use the Hensley Hitch.

We visited the recent trailer show in Illinois and viewed a few of the new A/S models. We liked the 25 foot Safari, but question if we can safely and comfortably tow it. Neither the dealer representing A/S or the factory rep resentative could give us any useful information on towing ability. We also looked at the 19' Safari Bambi and although there are only two of us, found it a little small mainly in storage capacity and thought the single axle set-up would make the trailer bounce a bit. Then we just discussed the 22' Safari, because they didn't have one at the show. We were amazed that the 22 footer had smaller wheels and tires than all other Airstreams, even the Bambi. Also it only has a single battery and LP bottle and the battery is hanging out in the breeze on the front of the tongue. The wet bath was also a turn off.

So if we decide to rejoin the A/S world, that sort of puts us between the 19' Bambi (Bouncy and small) and the 25' Safari (which we might not be able to safely tow).

Unfortunately we purchased our TV before we even thought about getting back into trailering. I know our 4Runner only has a 109.8" WB and that that is short and the COG is high. I wondering if anyone out there is towing with a similar set up using a Hensley Hitch and what their experiences might be. Or are we foolish to even consider it. We need to be both safe and comfortable.

Any guidance will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

John

Over59 · 02-29-2004, 04:39 PM

How about a vintage Airstream.... More feet for the pound.
http://www.airstream.com/airstream/p.../weights-1.pdf

dtbw · 02-29-2004, 06:22 PM

We tow our 19' '02 Bambi with an '02 Ford Sport Trac. The Sport Trac runs on a 128" WB so that makes a difference. The Sport Trac has a wonderful German engineered and manufactured V6 that cranks out 210 HP & 240 ft.lb torque through a true 5 speed automatic to a 4:10 rear end. We couple to the Bambi thru a Hensley Arrow.

The combo works great!. The Bambi 19' is just the right size for our weekend trips and vacations as we are years from retirement. Our Bambi has full sized ZeeDee awnings on both sides so that gives us the ability to spread to the outside and, after all, that is really part of getting out in the Airstream.

We get between 8MPG & 15MPG depending on whether we run at 70+MPH or at 55MPH. We have towed the rig in the mountains and the Ford powertrain handled the situation with ease.

I will say that given the weight of the new Airstreams, the 19' is about the max that I would consider if you want some margin of power and safety. Our 2002 Bambi 19' has a gross weight of 4500# with a hitch weight of 500#.

So if the 22' or 25' footers are more you fancy, better factor in a new tow vehicle into the finances.

david

j54mark · 02-29-2004, 06:37 PM

The 22' units should not be excluded simply because of a single battery. Many of us have just one battery, even if there are compartments for two. It just depends upon the type of usage. I would not care for a single lp tank, though.

Your 4-runner would be a bit iffy for my taste on a 25' Safari, even if the engine were up to it. The relatively narrow track, and the fairly short wheelbase would worry me. And if 5000 lbs. is right, you'd never get in under that limit anyway.

On the other hand, your Toyota is a much sought after model. It might be possible to sell or trade at little or on small loss. It is bound to be a smaller financial hit than having to trade up both tow vehicle AND Airstream should you find you really, really wanted a 25'. It'd be worth checking out, anyway.

...And you really DO want the 25', don't you?

Welcome to the forums, by the way.

Mark

silvernewbie · 02-29-2004, 06:39 PM

Thanks psychpw!

I appreciate your response and idea. I wouldn't have known where to find that kind of information, I thank you for that. I have to ask you at what age you consider an A/S vintage? Or do you just mean a used unit? I also don't think I'd know how to pick out which years are the "best" to consider.

I'm not looking for a project trailer. The time just isn't available to take on another hobby.

Thanks again.

John

silvernewbie · 02-29-2004, 06:59 PM

Hi Mark,

It's not just the single battery (which sits out exposed, on the tip of the tongue), it's the smaller wheels and tires, the strange configuration of the LP bottles and battery location and the wet bath. The 22' unit seems like a bit of an orphan among the other units, as though it comes from a previous A/S generation. We looked at it as a unit that might be harder to resell if it didn't work out for us. The A/S rep even said that they don't sell many of them.

I think that you are probably right that our 4Runner might be a bit iffy for a 25' A/S. Thanks.

John

silvernewbie · 02-29-2004, 07:31 PM

Hi Mark,

It's not just the single battery (which sits out exposed, on the tip of the tongue), it's the smaller wheels and tires, the strange configuration of the LP bottles and battery location and the wet bath. The 22' unit seems like a bit of an orphan among the other units, as though it comes from a previous A/S generation. We looked at it as a unit that might be harder to resell if it didn't work out for us. The A/S rep even said that they don't sell many of them.

I think that you are probably right that our 4Runner might be a bit iffy for a 25' A/S. Thanks.

John

silvernewbie · 02-29-2004, 07:42 PM

Hi Dave,

I appreciate your reply. Our V8 4Runner has 235hp @4800 rpm. and 320 lb ft of torque at 3400 rpm. So I think it has enough torque, however, I am concerned about the WB and see where your rig is much longer and better suited to towing than our 109.8" Runner. These new A/S's sure aren't lightweights are they.

Afraid I'd have to win the lottery to do everything the way I'd like.

Thanks again,

John

silvernewbie · 02-29-2004, 08:17 PM

Hi Dave,

I appreciate your reply. Our V8 4Runner has 235hp @4800 rpm. and 320 lb ft of torque at 3400 rpm. So I think it has enough torque, however, I am concerned about the WB and see where your rig is much longer and better suited to towing than our 109.8" Runner. These new A/S's sure aren't lightweights are they.

Afraid I'd have to win the lottery to do everything the way I'd like.

Thanks again,

John

CanoeStream · 02-29-2004, 08:24 PM

Hello John -- Your participation in the forums is greatly welcomed! Thank's for speaking up -- and keep doing it too.

The Hensley is superb for difficult control issues but there is ample support in these forums that its utility increases as you get to 28, 31 and 34' trailers. I'd suggest more research on weight distribution and anti-sway. On top of that all of its significant weight adds to your tongue load which is going to be difficult to address with a 4-Runner.

I would probably believe the manual before the website. But the short wheelbase of your SUV suggests you should stay as short in trailer as you possibly can -- 16' or 19'. A 22' CCD hitch weight without options is 620#. That means no Rockguard, no spare tire on the trailer to make that weight, nothing else on board. A weight distribution hitch will add to that -- which makes staying under 700# a hard task with a 22 footer. If you stay with the 4-Runner, looking at used Minuets would be possible -- though that would take some rehab interests, patience, etc. At least the entry fee wouldn't be measured in multiple tens of thousands...

To stick with the 4-Runner, check the manual for the tow vehicle's GVWR. Count the full 700# hitch weight -- then can you fit the number of people and a full gas tank on board? (see Airstream's FAQs for more 'splains)

dtbw · 02-29-2004, 09:15 PM

John,
There is another matter that seldom gets mentioned, sudden severe braking from moderate speeds. Modern tow vehicles typically are 4 wheel disc while current gen A/S are drum brakes. The two get along pretty well most of the time, but I can tell you that under severe braking, the normal balance of the trailer brakes leading the tow vehicle in braking force, declines and shifts to the trailer pushing the tow vehicle. This has nothing to do with the type of controller (I run a Jordon), but rather the difference in braking characteristic of the two different systems (drums brakes fade due to heat, disc brakes don't). The shift in braking dynamics is noticable and while I have never felt that it was dangerous, it is none the less noticable. Why I mention this, is that wheelbase comes into play as the trailer attempts to push the tow vehicle under severe braking. The longer the wheelbase (as well as the type/size of the tires on the tow vehicle), the better to resist any lateral motion that the forces from the trailer can exert.

I am seriously considering a change out from electric drum to electric/hydraulic disc on the Bambi. Such conversion kits exists that are relatively straightforward, but unfortunately not inexpensive (about $1500). As I mentioned, I have only noticed this tendency under pretty severe braking and from speeds above 45-50MPH.

david

Silvertwinkie · 02-29-2004, 09:28 PM

I've towed a 19' Bambi and have started to move around our 25' Safari. I will say this besides the tow capacity issue. If it's just the two of you for a few days, but less than a week, the Bambi is your coach. If you plan on camping for a few weeks, the Bambi can get a bit crowded. Second, watch out on that dealer that was at the Chicago shows, he's not the sharpest tack or most honest....but his deals are not too bad.....

Last is the tow issue, I think your truck will tow a 19' or 22' unit just fine, maybe up to the end of the limits, but can do it. My rig has 118" (I think that's what it is) and I have done extensive mods to the car to tow the 25' unit. I would start to question how safe it is an if it's worth it. In the end if you had the proper mods done and didn't drive like you stole it, stayed away from the mountains, I think you might be able to tow a 25', but only if you have a V8. I wouldn't even consider towning a 25' with a V6 although I know some folks that do or would. Also keep in mind that the hitch weights also will be a bit higher on the 25' units. The Bambi was 460, where the Safari C we have is 750lbs. Our hitch is rated for 1000lbs and we don't have a full car when we travel, nor a fully loaded coach.

Eric

silvernewbie · 03-01-2004, 06:34 AM

"The Hensley is superb for difficult control issues but there is ample support in these forums that its utility increases as you get to 28, 31 and 34' trailers. I'd suggest more research on weight distribution and anti-sway. On top of that all of its significant weight adds to your tongue load which is going to be difficult to address with a 4-Runner."

Hi Canoe Stream,

Thanks for all the great information. I take it that you feel that the weight of the Hensley on the tongue may be a greater detriment, in my case, than an antisway benefit. I find that disappointing.

According to the owners manual the maximum gross trailer weight plus cargo weight must not exceed 7,000 lbs. and the combined gross trailer weight plus the total weight of the tow vehicle, occupants and cargo must not exceed 12,000 lbs.

It looks more and more like we should heed the advice, wait till we buy our next potential TV and then re-look at the Safari 25. After just recently purchasing the 4Runner it doesn't make sence to me to turn around and sell it (and take a loss) to buy something larger. Someone else mentioned the 19' Bambi is great for about three days at a stretch but after a week or so it gets crowded. We would definitely be on the road for more than a week at a time.

Thanks again Bob!

John

silvernewbie · 03-01-2004, 07:02 AM

Hello Silvertwinkie,

We are both avid photographers so we would definitely be going to mountainous areas as well as the sea shore. So to set up a rig at the limits of safety and capability is definitly not something we would want to do. My preference would be just the opposite and build in some overkill.

Twenty five years ago we trailered a 26' Argosy (with two young children) and I think that size would be good for us now considering all our gear. So I guess we should probably hold off and do this right when we decide to do it. Until then $40k will buy a lot of hotel/motel rooms and breakfasts at Cracker Barrel. Thank you very much.

John

Safari Streamer · 03-01-2004, 10:30 AM

Don't spend all that money on hotels and Cracker Barrel. You will not have nearly as much fun or meet nearly as many great people. Where else can you get together with so many others and take off for a weekend or a month or two? We love our 25' Safari and are currently towing with a Suburban. We will soon be shopping for a new tow vechicle, possibly a truck.
Good luck with your decision.

CanoeStream · 03-01-2004, 07:53 PM

John,

Quote:

I take it that you feel that the weight of the Hensley on the tongue may be a greater detriment, in my case, than an antisway benefit.

In concept the Hensley is a great piece of engineering. The best weight distribution & anti-sway won't help make a short wheelbase SUV a great tow vehicle for all trailers. Even an F-250 PowerStroke has a 'capacity' -- it's just somewhat greater. Where I was going had more to do with the heavier Hensley in your receiver being the final straw in putting your 4Runner over capacity when you look at the most trailer you can tow (going strictly by the numbers, a 22' CCD might be too much even before a Hensley). Standard disclaimer: I have no Hensley experience but it is the heaviest out there -- 200# or close to it?

Quote:

According to the owners manual the maximum gross trailer weight plus cargo weight must not exceed 7,000 lbs. and the combined gross trailer weight plus the total weight of the tow vehicle, occupants and cargo must not exceed 12,000 lbs.

A 22' International CCD hitch weight w/o options is 620#. Add the weight of a your weight distribution device to the hitch weight. You'll have LP in the tanks too. With no personal gear on the trailer it is nearly impossible to stay below your tow vehicle's 700# maximum hitch weight.

You can't pull the maximum 'combined gross weight' if you overload the vehicle in a primary sense. According to Toyota's website an 8-cylinder 4Runner has a payload right at 1200# (also can be arrived at by subtracting empty vehicle weight from GVWR). With 700# on the hitch that leaves you 500# to play with. A full 23 gal tank would subtract 144.9# from that. Let's figure driver + passenger = 300#. You now have 55.1# of additional load you can put into your tow vehicle. Period.

Weight distribution does move load so that the front axle shares some of what is in the receiver. There are more sophisticated ways of looking at the actual weight per axle (do a search on CAT scale), but we all still use up our GVWR pretty quickly. My tow capacity is upwards of 9000# but I'll max out my tow vehicle's GVWR with my 3600# empty weight trailer (once I load it), two people, a full gas tank, a pickup topper, and two bicycles. I might have to fill my canoe with helium...

Grab the opportunity to use an Airstream when you want to. I wanted 'new' for the longest time and that is the slowest way to hit the road with the gear you desire. A used trailer will demand time and some of that money you save -- and a small used unit will let you do some of the things you want while still aiming for the perfect trailer. Cruise these forums and keep looking -- you don't have to be multiple planned years away from your acquisition!