When to go electric for a tow vehicle

[BayouBiker]

Given the lack of economic drivers for electric vehicles and the long list of inconveniences and recognizing the primary purpose of a tow vehicle being to carry gear and safely tow, so excess weight that reduces payload. I note currently payload limits are the predominate issue with tow vehicle questions on this site as it is. Then noting that the nature of towing is for the most part to get from one place to the next with as few interruptions and the associated risks of same as possible I just don't see a path for broad acceptance of stored energy electric motor driven vehicles as tow vehicle anytime in the near future so I'm going to answer the original question by saying for most tow drivers the switch will happen only if and when the government mandates it.

Noting also the difficulty safely towing current trailers with their current weight and inertia profiles, I can't see very much consumer demand for trailers with regenerative braking, supplemental power sources and motors, particularly when one considers the very low use factor and the very clear cost difference from a model without all that gear. Customer demand has driven the market to large, wide heavy trailers with features designed to improve the camping experience, I don't see consumers suddenly deciding a camper should be all about getting to the campsite instead. Perhaps those of us who think camping should be about camping will be sent to the gulag for reprogramming so we can get our head straight.

[kscherzi]

A new Airstream is hovering around $100k +/- depending upon model and trim. I can only imagine what one will cost with a lithium battery pack and motors on the wheels.

Driving down highway 58 from Tehachapi to Bakersfield today I thought about regenerate braking. The road drops from about 4,000' to about sea level. I noticed that on the long 5% grades the truck and trailer combo held 60 mph with no brakes or gas. At 6% grade I had to tap the brakes here and there, until it downshifted. So for most roads and grades I don't think regenerate braking in a trailer would be worth it.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

Given the lack of economic drivers for electric vehicles and the long list of inconveniences.....

Better not look at year over year sales trends for (non towing) BEVs, you may find them upsetting.

And if economic drivers are the deciding factor, how do we explain people purchasing diesel pickups for light duty uses such as towing Airstreams? And Airstreams themselves, for that matter?

[BayouBiker]

Goalpost change from towing back to non-towing noted. It's not too difficult to sell to a niche market of guilty souls attempting to make amends over a false issue especially when you're handing out north of 10-15% of the vehicle cost and not charging any use tax. Those are all temporary drivers. That's not going to work with general sales.

Economic drivers include personal satisfaction, individual value drivers, and useful features. Also when you run a 5 year or 10 year or 15 year total cost of lifecycle (purchase, use, sell) ownership on otherwise identical diesel vs. gasoline trucks set up for and used for towing, diesel comes out ahead more often than not depending on use factors, without figuring in the typical non monetary value drivers. Running that same analysis on a hypothetical electric tow vehicle doesn't work out so well, then add the cost of inconveniences and you're so far underwater the sunlight can't reach you.

[Rocinante]

I'd be more than willing to bet that most who deride EV's have never even driven one, preferring instead to passionately argue nonsensical, fact-free positions from a position of willful ignorance, as if they were Lilliputians arguing over which end of an egg should be opened first.

I own one. They are far more fun to drive than an ICE vehicle, handle beautifully because of the very low center of gravity, and if you buy a used one they are less expensive to buy than folks imagine. As to whether they're ready for use as a tow vehicle, I'd say, let's see how Tesla's cybertruck performs, despite its ridiculous name and ugly design. There's at least one other company out there also doing a pickup truck EV, though it gets less attention. They'll all be a great proof of concept.

Everything else in this thread about climate, "free markets" (which are never truly free because subsidies and tax breaks), and on and on is just hot air that likely contributes at least as much to climate change as ICE vehicles[emoji57]. Let's put some rubber on the road and see what happens, shall we?

As an aside, our solar installation at home, which includes a pair of PowerWalls, generates and stores so much energy that our monthly power bill, including HVAC operation, and charging the car, is less than $13 (our grid connect fee including tax), and we never experience a power outage when the grid goes down. (Speaking of tax, our bill increased from $12 last year to $13 this year because of increased state and local taxes.)

Oh, and if we ever use more energy than we make in a month, we have hundreds of kilowatt hours in the bank from which to draw, and our bill would not change. We are thus a net contributor to the power grid. We love that this lets us tell the power company to go pound sand when they increase their rates. Sure, we live where there's lots of sunshine and a home in northern climes would produce less power, but we're already sharing with the grid and would be happy to do so in a more interesting way if the opportunity ever presented itself. Wanna buy our excess power? Let's talk. [emoji41]

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by primepower

I almost purchased an Audi e-tron instead of my ICE Cadillac. However when I compared insurance rates the Audi would costs over $1k more per year. We already own one Audi, it's the EV part that jacked up my insurance quote. I'm a nerd and had an excel sheet tallying up 10 year costs included fuel and type of fuel, insurance, etc. The EV was much more expensive for me. Insurance is an afterthought to some and they may be in for a surprise. Cost of repair on EV's at this point is really weighing heavy with me. Less maintenance for sure, but I perform my own maintenance so that cost is not high for me. Even with two diesels and two german autos.

There’s a big difference from “maintenance” and “repair”. I doubt many can do major repair on a modern vehicle, ICE or EV, at home.

[Rocinante]

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

There’s a big difference from “maintenance” and “repair”. I doubt many can do major repair on a modern vehicle, ICE or EV, at home.

The most expensive maintenance or repair on our EV to date: oh right, none. $0. Nada. Nothing. Thanks for playing, y'all.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

The problem is that the driver for electric vehicles is entirely, 100% based on the climate change narrative. The two topics are inseparable. You are correct that eventually a more efficient and productive mode of transportation will eventually replace IC engines despite all the failed predictions of catastrophe coming home to roost. The problem with failed predictions are that even young people eventually wake up to the inevitable truth.

It most certainly is not. It’s based on technological advances that make battery technology usable. There are battery electric impact tools that develop 200 ft lbs of torque, phone batteries that last a week, and even battery electric Jaws of Life. No one cares where the power comes from, or everyone would forgo air conditioning, 75” TVs, etc. no one gives a rip where the power comes from.

[BayouBiker]

How usable is a tow vehicle that must stop every 150-200 miles (2-3 hours) for another one hour? I agree that the purpose of vehicles is to get you and your stuff from one place to another efficiently, reliably and timely. The timely part is the issue if your destination is a ways away. Cost of ownership (efficientcy) remains a significant challenge also.

The driver for design, development and marketing of electric vehicles to replace automobiles and trucks was in fact the climate change narrative, there is no disputing that.

[Rocinante]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

How usable is a tow vehicle that must stop every 150-200 miles (2-3 hours) for another one hour? I agree that the purpose of vehicles is to get you and your stuff from one place to another efficiently, reliably and timely. The timely part is the issue if your destination is a ways away. Cost of ownership (efficientcy) remains a significant challenge also.

The driver for design, development and marketing of electric vehicles to replace automobiles and trucks was in fact the climate change narrative, there is no disputing that.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Who gives a rip? All you're doing with that argument is producing CO2 and co-traveling pollutants.

Meanwhile, our EV has a range of over 200 miles on a charge, it's wicked fun to drive, and there are plenty of fast chargers on routes where we are likely to be if we need to drive farther than that. Worst case, we rent an ICE vehicle for a day or two if we need more convenient extended mileage.

Where we are right now with battery technology is an amazing place compared to a decade ago, and where we are going in the near future will be even more interesting.

Again, as to whether EVs are ready as tow vehicles, we'll soon have a couple more platforms for trying that out, and people will actually start trying to use them for towing. We'll actually start to see what's possible by their fine example, and learn what needs to happen next. Can't wait.

[BayouBiker]

In fact, battery technology has not changed significantly since 1990 with at the advent of commercial Lithium Ion batteries. Since then the technology has been largely stagnant. Sure there have been commercial and production improvements but no breakthroughs. There is some hype about solid state battery step change improvements and lithium or magnesium sulfur batteries, but so far no breakthroughs since 1990.

Let's put batteries as an energy storage device into a perspective relevant for towing....

The energy density by mass of todays best battery is less than 2% that of diesel and gasoline. Less than 1% that of hydrogen. Thus for every lb equivalent in energy you're lugging more than 50 lb of metal and minerals.

But it is worse because batteries follow the laws of physical chemistry and we are very close to those theoretical limits. This is why battery powered electric vehicles will have a short life in the history of vehicle travel. Instead technologies that compete with liquid petroleum fuels will take the day. Hydrogen fuel cells and ultimately something that mimics the ingenuity and brilliance of biological life will sprint past BEVs in short order, but not until they can economically compete with internal combustion unless Owell's 1984 comes to pass, but socialism (government management of economies) fails every time it is tried.

[Bobbo]

Originally Posted by Rocinante

Meanwhile, our EV has a range of over 200 miles on a charge, it's wicked fun to drive, and there are plenty of fast chargers on routes where we are likely to be if we need to drive farther than that. Worst case, we rent an ICE vehicle for a day or two if we need more convenient extended mileage.

LOL. Implicit acknowledgement that true long distance driving requires an ICE, at least until the infrastructure gets 2 or 3 orders of magnitude better. Especially in the west where even current infrastructure is a long distance apart. And, what do you do when the infrastructure is not 2 or 3 orders of magnitude better, you have a long distance trip required, and ICE vehicles are banned? (And, your 200 mile range will be cut in half if towing an Airstream. I can think of nowhere I want to camp that is not more than 100 miles away.)

I have a problem with the argument that we need to convert now because things will be better with 10 more years of development. My problem is that intervening 10 years. It's not like if you run out of charge, you can hitchhike to a fast charger and bring back a gallon of electricity.

[primepower]

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

There’s a big difference from “maintenance” and “repair”. I doubt many can do major repair on a modern vehicle, ICE or EV, at home.

I can do most repairs at home and perform a lot of preventative maintenance so honestly I haven't had to do many. I do a lot of research, purchase a good brand and use my experience to prevent most common issues. I understand this is specific to me and not everyone but that's what I was going for.

[Rocinante]

Originally Posted by Bobbo

LOL. Implicit acknowledgement that true long distance driving requires an ICE, at least until the infrastructure gets 2 or 3 orders of magnitude better. Especially in the west where even current infrastructure is a long distance apart. And, what do you do when the infrastructure is not 2 or 3 orders of magnitude better, you have a long distance trip required, and ICE vehicles are banned? (And, your 200 mile range will be cut in half if towing an Airstream. I can think of nowhere I want to camp that is not more than 100 miles away.)



I have a problem with the argument that we need to convert now because things will be better with 10 more years of development. My problem is that intervening 10 years. It's not like if you run out of charge, you can hitchhike to a fast charger and bring back a gallon of electricity.

Just so we're clear, I don't personally care whether you or any of the other curmudgeonly dead-horse-beaters on this thread ever convert to an EV. [emoji16] There's plenty of market pressure moving things in the right direction without you, With major corporations making huge bets on EVs, and bringing EUVs and EV trucks to market regardless of your position.

That said, let's remember the early days of the horseless buggy with folks taking them for drives in the country, where a farmer with a mule could make good money hauling them out of a mud hole and could chuckle all the way back to his barn laughing at how ridiculous they were and how the motor car would never amount to anything. We're well past that now, but you're still arguing pointless points as if you were that farmer with the mule. lol

So, those arguments are generally uninteresting and they aren't even what this thread was about in the first place.

The right time to buy an EV tow vehicle or Class B camper van is when one is available that meets your needs. Until then, maybe keep watching the show to see what happens in the next episode.

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by Rocinante

The most expensive maintenance or repair on our EV to date: oh right, none. $0. Nada. Nothing. Thanks for playing, y'all.

I get 18,000 miles on my truck with no maintenance.... Not a very fascinating story. How many decades for that home solar arrangement to pay out? How does that change when your tax paying neighbors are no longer contributing to the inefficiency with their hard earned money? There is no free lunch somebody is paying for that waste.

[kscherzi]

A while ago my company was going through a big business change due to external factors. They brought in some management consultants to assist. They had a cute analogy , surprisingly appropriate to Airstream's that stuck with me.

Imagine a campfire. There's a ring of rocks. Inside there's a layer of balled up newspaper, then kindling, the logs.

The paper ignites quickly, this represents first adopters. First adopters eagerly explore and invest in change, but generally represent a small portion of the population. Then kindling, it takes longer to ignite. Kindling wants to see some proof the fire is for real, but swayed by success of the early adopters this segment of the population eventually accept the change. Logs, representing the majority of the population, taking longer to ignite. Then there's the rocks, the rocks resist the force to ignite but heat up anyway.

So what part of the campfire are you? Paper, kindling, a log, or a rock?

[BayouBiker]

Sometimes the idea is backwards economically and a rain comes along and washes it all away. The rocks have a long history of being correct also, not always, but often.

Despite Rocinate's protests, many here are addressing the original question head on by pointing out all of the things that would have to change before the "logs" catch fire and move to EVs. Then folks protest incorrectly that those issues are not the topic and proceed to change the argument to things we don't say. We are not like those claiming the horseless carriage will never replace the horse. The purpose of that false analogy is to make us sound stupid or silly. It is a personal attack designed to distract from the inability to address the fact based issue. We are describing all the things that would have to change before putting the horse out to pasture.

[LNBright]

As the crow flies, my office is 20 miles away, but via road, it's 40 miles from driveway to parking lot (most of that is decent highway w/ very light traffic). That's 80 miles round-trip if only straight to the office and back. add in running to get a bit of lunch midday, stop at a store enroute home, a 100-mile range would cover my 'daily need'. And I'll admit, I think it'd be great to not have to use an ICE to do that. But, sometimes, I need to go over, difficult terrain, a 4x4 is a must for me on those occasions. So, perhaps something like a Rivian or the Cybertruck could do in those cases. But, yeah, they're not here yet, but upon their debut, won't be at my price-point. Eventually, that'll happen. But on the towing side: I suppose it depends on how an individual's use is, that if you're taking it from home to a local park, or a 'regional' park, the EV would be fine, or, if you've got all the time and can take your break to recharge for awhile, that's great for you... but for me on travel days, I'm an early-to-rise, hit the road, and stay on the road all day for a day or two, crossing the continent to get to the area of interest where we'll then camp. Long recharge periods are a non-starter for me. Once they can change battery technology into something that can quickly recharge, I'd be interested. Actually, Toyota has their fuel-cell car, the Mirai, that simply reload on hydrogen: that could work: but their infrastructure is limited to California, which doesn't do me any good (not to mention it's a sedan, not something I'd tow with). If you had a hydrogen refill at every gas-station, and put fuel-cells in something that can tow and has payload capacity, there you go.

But what, 15 years ago, we had e85 pumps popping up all over the area: but by 5 years ago, I can't find a one left. In that case, you weren't left out, as you could still run gasoline. But if you had an electric or a fuel-cell that reloaded on hydrogen, to then a decade later not be able to charge or refill it, that's not such a great scenario.

[DewTheDew]

Just to comment that EVs have their own advantages that people like aside from any CO2 issues. It's like when I had a diesel Audi A6 and people always pointed out that for the way I drove and the length of time I had my car a diesel wasn't economically a good choice. But neither are leather seats or an upgraded stereo. These are things I like because I liked stopping less frequently to fuel, loved the torque, and in the end I loved my payment from the big scandal :-) To claim the only reason that anyone would drive them is due to concerns for global warming does a disservice to the other advantages of EVs.

But as Rocinante said, the objective is not to convince people that they have to do this. It is to keep up with potential improvements and learn from those who have gone down this pathway already. If you don't want to drive an EV, BayouBiker, then don't. If you cannot imagine a future where people want to buy EVs to tow then that is your issue; others can easily imagine such a future and understand the pathway to make it happen.

[Rocinante]

BTW, in my example of the farmer and the mule, the farmer is actually a really smart guy, and for my money, he probably engineered the mud hole and made plenty of cash that way. The key point, which some clearly chose to miss, is that he was so busy cheerfully making bank that he didn't see the future coming. That's it.

There are plenty of modern examples, such as DEC and Compaq Computer. Both were great companies led by brilliant people, but they got smacked by a future they didn't see coming straight at them, and those companies are now a part of history. It happens all the time.

Yes, EVs are in the process of trying to cross the chasm. Obviously not all the way across yet, but clearly making progress. When will they be far enough across the chasm for you to adopt? Will they ever be far enough across for you? Only you can answer that question.