When to go electric for a tow vehicle

[Isuzusweet]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

Fusion?

If the captains of industry from Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, and Fukushima have their hands freed to play around with fusion, what is probably going to happen?

In the fusion deck of cards, there is one wild card, and it is called Annihilation.

Fusion?

I think USAtraveller is talking; compact fusion; practically unlimited power from essentially water.

Unfortunately for us as a race, great technological strides tend to come with trying to kill as many people as we can.

Is it possible, yes, in fact Lockheed Martin and the US military is working on a compact fusion plant designed to fit into the back of a truck to power 80,000 homes as they tout in the write up; not for propulsion and future laser/particle beam weapons. Even though Lockheed Martin's headliner is...."We're engineering a better tomorrow".....how many people believe that's why they're making this fusion reactor?

If it was so good for humanity.....why have the skunk works build it in secret?

http://www.lockheedmartin.ca/us/prod...ct-fusion.html

But if they or someone miniaturize this and get it down to the size of a modern day motor; we'll all be driving around in mobile bombs; which should make the Dept of Homeland Security very happy.

Cheers
Tony

[Tomzstream]

Oh yea, my home system's 5 year old rooftop panels are about 15% efficient which is pretty good, and at the time the very best were about 18%. I imagine the good folks at MIT have upped that to the mid twenties (I really haven't kept up with it), but the cheap ones are still in the mid-teens. I have 30 panels amounting to 7.8KW and they peak out at about 6.15 (more a limit of the enphase microinverters). I am lucky to get 40KWhs this time of year (sub optimal sun angle) and 50kWhs on the best days (optimal during the equinox). I net on average about 1.1 MWhs a month average. That's 30 something a day. And that's with 30 panels!

This time of year I burn up to 70 a day ( I have an all electric house in FL), and I am pretty conservative about my AC use but with highs in the mid 90s and lows in the mid 70s there is a real need for it, and I have LED lights etc. So I am happy if I can keep my net usage down to 1 MWH per month which is the threshold for tier 2 rates. I am not about to double that just to charge a car. My car usage is actually pretty conservative too, but my E250 took me 100 miles yesterday on a little over 2 gals of diesel or less than 5 bucks. A whole lot cheaper than expanding my solar array to accommodate an electric vehicle. I bought my house with optimal aspect (a large expanse of southern exposure) and roof angle (30 degrees equivalent to my latitude), and I doubt there are any airstreamers that camp with anything close to optimal conditions for their little three or four panel arrays. One last reason I do not put solar on my trailer... ITS AN AIRSTREAM! I bought it for its looks and its reduced drag coefficient. Why would I want to muck it up with things sticking out of the top of it. Seriously, we need to focus on the efficiency of towing these things, and job number one is to reduce their weight. Reduce the work required to move it and it will become more feasible to use renewable energy.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Tomzstream

Seriously, we need to focus on the efficiency of towing these things, and job number one is to reduce their weight. Reduce the work required to move it and it will become more feasible to use renewable energy.

That is what I am thinking. There are examples being given of 10,000 lb trailers and the need for very large tow vehicles. IMO trailer size and weight need to be addressed concurrently with electric tow vehicle development. There are a lot of concepts embodied in the Bowlus that hint at that direction.

Perhaps add a second battery for the TV mounted low in the trailer (a ETV specific trailer model) to extend range when towing.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Do I want to drive 300 miles and then pull over by the side of the road for a few days? I'm only going to get useful solar in the middle of the day. Pulling over for 10 hours in the middle of the night doesn't count. Most of us would be bothered by a 1 hour charge stop. A couple of days (...weeks...) before we can move on is only likely to appeal to a *very* small group.

The only "magic" that really applies here is hydrogen. Fusion of any sort is a money pit with no bottom in sight. The "silver bullet" answer is an ever larger ever more expensive plant. Moore's Law isn't going to get you out of this one.

Hydrogen would work for a tow vehicle or a truck. It's a much better way to get the job done. You pull over, pump "fuel" into the "tank" and move on. All you need is a network of hydrogen stations, the vehicles, and the infrastructure to supply the product. None of that exists, but it all *could* exist. It's not cheap or easy. It's not going to happen without some big push (like a change in the law). It's not just economics, it's politics.

Bob

[jcl]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hydrogen would work for a tow vehicle or a truck. It's a much better way to get the job done. You pull over, pump "fuel" into the "tank" and move on. All you need is a network of hydrogen stations, the vehicles, and the infrastructure to supply the product. None of that exists, but it all *could* exist. It's not cheap or easy. It's not going to happen without some big push (like a change in the law). It's not just economics, it's politics.

Bob

As per post 60

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...ml#post1975121

[Mollysdad]

Originally Posted by Tomzstream

Which totally ignores the need for AC in the future as the planet heats up.

Wait, what?
Oh, no!

Originally Posted by Glenritas

So I find if I just go 200 miles to the next camp site it works out well .

200 miles? I do that before lunch, if I stop at all.
My conclusion is the folks who praise solar and tow with EV enjoy being on the cutting edge of tech. And putting up with the problems in the development. So frequent charging and short distances are all part of the "fun".
Cars used to have wooden spokes on their wheels and roads were mud, but they were on the cutting edge too.
I once backpacked, it was challenging and "fun" too, but now I discover that walking 5 miles to sleep in a tent is not as much fun as it used to be. I'll count on others to bring EV into the 21/22 century.
Meanwhile, I'll be covering 600 miles a day to get to my beautiful destination.

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by Tomzstream

Oh yea, my home system's 5 year old rooftop panels are about 15% efficient which is pretty good, and at the time the very best were about 18%. I imagine the good folks at MIT have upped that to the mid twenties (I really haven't kept up with it), but the cheap ones are still in the mid-teens. I have 30 panels amounting to 7.8KW and they peak out at about 6.15 (more a limit of the enphase microinverters). I am lucky to get 40KWhs this time of year (sub was optimal sun angle) and 50kWhs on the best days (optimal during the equinox). I net on average about 1.1 MWhs a month average. That's 30 something a day. And that's with 30 panels!

This time of year I burn up to 70 a day ( I have an all electric house in FL), and I am pretty conservative about my AC use but with highs in the mid 90s and lows in the mid 70s there is a real need for it, and I have LED lights etc. So I am happy if I can keep my net usage down to 1 MWH per month which is the threshold for tier 2 rates. I am not about to double that just to charge a car. My car usage is actually pretty conservative too, but my E250 took me 100 miles yesterday on a little over 2 gals of diesel or less than 5 bucks. A whole lot cheaper than expanding my solar array to accommodate an electric vehicle. I bought my house with optimal), and I doubt there are any airstreamers that camp with anything close to optimal conditions for their little three or four panel arrays. One last reason I do not put solar on my trailer... ITS AN AIRSTREAM! I bought it for its looks and its reduced drag coefficient. Why would I want to muck it up with things sticking out of the top of it. Seriously, we need to focus on the efficiency of towing these things, and job number one is to reduce their weight. Reduce the work required to move it and it will become more feasible to use renewable energy.

The roof adds a percentage aero drag factor. What's up there isn't huge (ugly would be those rain vent covers). Fairing the rear of the AC unit is par. A few panels doesn't change much.

Aero means more than weight for FE. The AS is already a good design from that standpoint.

But has no comparable aero TV to go with it. Drivetrain choice is about it for maximizing FE.

An add-on foldup fabric rounded nose for the TT. I've seen basalt cloth suggested. Similar for rear. And some way to bridge gap between vehicles.

Directly to weight: aluminum cabinetry as Streamline had (even some Argosys). No rot, no dead weight, stronger and adds structural strength.

And aircraft style honeycomb flooring. Only needs a thin overlay for floor finish.
These two, alone, would make a real difference. Small trailer or large.

I think electric fine for a metro area vehicle. But will always be crippled otherwise. If the grid goes down it was a worse than bad mistake. That said, I'm pleased to read reports of how it works.

Better trailers and better cars always a good thing. So, we'll see

[USAtraveler]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

...Most of us would be bothered by a 1 hour charge stop. A couple of days (...weeks...) before we can move on is only likely to appeal to a *very* small group.

The only "magic" that really applies here is hydrogen. Fusion of any sort is a money pit with no bottom in sight. The "silver bullet" answer is an ever larger ever more expensive plant. Moore's Law isn't going to get you out of this one.

Hydrogen would work for a tow vehicle or a truck. It's a much better way to get the job done. You pull over, pump "fuel" into the "tank" and move on. All you need is a network of hydrogen stations, the vehicles, and the infrastructure to supply the product. None of that exists, but it all *could* exist. It's not cheap or easy. It's not going to happen without some big push (like a change in the law). It's not just economics, it's politics. Bob

Maybe not in my lifetime or possibly yours, but think FUSION future. Serious research has been underway longer than you may realize. That's as much as I care to say about it.

Regarding hydrogen, YES...coming to your door sooner than later, but not in the way Bob imagines. Back in ancient times...back when Arnie Scharzenegger was CA governor (2004 to be more accurate), he became enamored of the fact the only thing out the tailpipe of a hydrogen-powered car was water. If millions of Californians could be induced to buy H power cars, it would cut down on the heavy smog stifling the San Joaquin Vly and LA basin produced by burning hydrocarbon fuel.

He soon became a big promoted of the "Hydrogen Highway", a chain of hydrogen filling stations between Sacto and LA. To kick off on this idea, groups of early adopters were invited to a large warehouse in Davis, CA to witness the technology of H power. I had purchased a new Blackberry (remember how cool they were then) so I was one of those invited...at least I assume that was the reason.

Quite a few major auto mfgs of the day supplied vehicles designed to run on hydrogen, and there was also a proto hydrogen pump to fuel them. Unfortunately, that was about the last we heard of the Hydrogen Highway. As of 2012 there were only 8 publicly accessible stations statewide. Part of the problem was the vehicles themselves. They simply used internal combustion engines that were converted to run on H instead of gasoline. Range was poor, thermal efficiency was poor, and the economics just did not pan out. Pulling up to an H pump station in a car or light truck having a converted IC engine has proven to be impractical.

In 2012, Jerry Brown signed a new law to promote Hydrogen fueling stations. As of Dec. 2016 there were 28 publicly accessible H stations in the state. They are mostly all used to fuel fleet vehicles like buses. But the goal is to have 100 stations in operation. The projection is for the number of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles of all types to vastly increase as the technology moves into the mainstream and the demand for H and fueling stations grows accordingly.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Hydrogen as an IC fuel still gets you nitrogen issues. Fuel cells are the answer to both the efficiency and pollution issues. No,it's not a slam dunk. Compared to recharging battery powered TV's in 15 minutes ... it's a slam dunk.

Bob

[Isuzusweet]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Do I want to drive 300 miles and then pull over by the side of the road for a few days? I'm only going to get useful solar in the middle of the day. Pulling over for 10 hours in the middle of the night doesn't count. Most of us would be bothered by a 1 hour charge stop. A couple of days (...weeks...) before we can move on is only likely to appeal to a *very* small group.

Bob

Think about this though......You're a restraurant owner that decides to build a restraurant in a location that is frequented by the RV crowd. You place a number of super chargers in your parking lot that will quick charge an average vehicle in a hour. You give the consumer a choice, buy the electricity for one price and eat in the trailer, OR, come into the restaurant, eat and pay a reduced charge cost.

How many electric car owners, now, or in the future will adapt their stops and stays based on electrical supply? I'd say a lot of them will. In fact, look for fast chargers coming to a Wallmart near you when electrical cars become mainstream and not fringe.

Cheers
Tony

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Isuzusweet

How many electric car owners, now, or in the future will adapt their stops and stays based on electrical supply? I'd say a lot of them will.

It is happening now. We do regular wine tasting trips in the Okanagan. No big cities,in this area. One of our favourite wineries, outside a very small town, has installed an EV station with a fast charger just for that purpose, luring tourists off the main highways. We see it being used. They are promoting a circle tour route. Good for them!

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by USAtraveler

Maybe not in my lifetime or possibly yours, but think FUSION future. Serious research has been underway longer than you may realize. That's as much as I care to say about it.

Regarding hydrogen, YES...coming to your door sooner than later, but not in the way Bob imagines. Back in ancient times...back when Arnie Scharzenegger was CA governor (2004 to be more accurate), he became enamored of the fact the only thing out the tailpipe of a hydrogen-powered car was water. If millions of Californians could be induced to buy H power cars, it would cut down on the heavy smog stifling the San Joaquin Vly and LA basin produced by burning hydrocarbon fuel.

He soon became a big promoted of the "Hydrogen Highway", a chain of hydrogen filling stations between Sacto and LA. To kick off on this idea, groups of early adopters were invited to a large warehouse in Davis, CA to witness the technology of H power. I had purchased a new Blackberry (remember how cool they were then) so I was one of those invited...at least I assume that was the reason.

Quite a few major auto mfgs of the day supplied vehicles designed to run on hydrogen, and there was also a proto hydrogen pump to fuel them. Unfortunately, that was about the last we heard of the Hydrogen Highway. As of 2012 there were only 8 publicly accessible stations statewide. Part of the problem was the vehicles themselves. They simply used internal combustion engines that were converted to run on H instead of gasoline. Range was poor, thermal efficiency was poor, and the economics just did not pan out. Pulling up to an H pump station in a car or light truck having a converted IC engine has proven to be impractical.

In 2012, Jerry Brown signed a new law to promote Hydrogen fueling stations. As of Dec. 2016 there were 28 publicly accessible H stations in the state. They are mostly all used to fuel fleet vehicles like buses. But the goal is to have 100 stations in operation. The projection is for the number of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles of all types to vastly increase as the technology moves into the mainstream and the demand for H and fueling stations grows accordingly.

With all those Hydrogen driven vehicles spitting out water the California droughts could also be alleviated. A twofer :-)

[Mollysdad]

Originally Posted by Isuzusweet

In fact, look for fast chargers coming to a Wallmart near you when electrical cars become mainstream and not fringe.

I'd be shocked. First, WalMart does not spend money on anything that doesn't sell. Secondly, their customer base, me included, is not the "Let's get the latest tech." crowd. Look in the parking lot and tell me how many Prius's you see. Many more pickup trucks.

However, your point is valid. The idea of a Applebee's having a charge station, or a Nordstrum's for sure.
How about outside the Apple store! Bingo!

BTW, has anyone noticed how the Hydrogen car has fallen off the radar? In France they have "Compressed air" cars. I'm not crazy about sitting on a cylinder of air at 3000/psi, however.
It's all EV, probably due to the vision of Elon Musk.

[ohmman]

Tesla originally partnered with outlet malls for their chargers. They added Holiday Inn Express, Best Western, and others afterwards. Fred Meyer hosts Superchargers in the Northwest, which has some similarities to WalMart.

The difference is that Tesla pays for the installation and energy. The venue just gives them a number of spaces.

Tesla has recently begun to purchase lots (most recently in Kettleman City, CA) to install 40 Superchargers, a lounge, bathrooms, etc. These more corporate charging plazas are new and will be interesting to watch.

* edit: I forgot that they also partnered with Ruby Tuesday.

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

. . .
It's all EV, probably due to the vision of Elon Musk.

Let's not forget that big round hot thing up in the sky!



[ . . . which also creates wind indirectly, due to the global ocean and atmospheric heating and cooling cycles and circulations . . . ]

[ohmman]

Originally Posted by otra15

let's not forget that big round hot thing up in the sky!

[OTRA15]

Good one!

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

I'd be shocked. First, WalMart does not spend money on anything that doesn't sell. Secondly, their customer base, me included, is not the "Let's get the latest tech." crowd. Look in the parking lot and tell me how many Prius's you see. Many more pickup trucks.

Seen on the web:

Walmart installs first electric car charging station. July 15, 2011

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by ohmman

. . .
Tesla has recently begun to purchase lots (most recently in Kettleman City, CA) to install 40 Superchargers, a lounge, bathrooms, etc. These more corporate charging plazas are new and will be interesting to watch.
. . .

So if someone is pulling a trailer with a Tesla X, will there be room to "boondock" at the plaza for a few hours, or even overnight, like Walmart?




PS -- Do you know if any of the charging stations are "pull through" for the combined rig?

[Isuzusweet]

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

I'd be shocked.

Seen on the web:

Walmart installs first electric car charging station. July 15, 2011

Mollysdad.........Jcl...........: punk:Me

I've been saying......The world is changing far faster than most of us can tell it's changing, and if we continue to bury our head in the sand and not recognize these changes, we stand to lose out on jobs, money and clients.

Cheers
Tony