When to go electric for a tow vehicle

[Toasterlife]

I have already seen heavy duty electric delivery trucks in Europe, where they are used in city centers, they are clean and so quiet, really nice for the neighbours!

When would I buy one here? well as soon as the are commercially available, have reasonable range and recharging locations, and are fairly priced. We love to camp and cherish our National Parks, so we would be willing to pay a little over the odds for a quiet clean TV. One thing to concern ourselves with is the source of the power. I would not like a "coal fired" electric TV because the local electricity comes from coal.....

[DavidsonOverlander]

Originally Posted by jcl

For all those thinking this won't happen in your lifetime.....

Is nobody following Workhorse? Their fleet pickup is a 5 seater, 2200 lb payload, 5000 lb towing capacity, 80 mile all electric range, 310 mile range using onboard generator. This is first generation. See their Freightliner work.

http://workhorse.com/pickup/

Very interesting! I wasn't aware of this company. If they came out with a truck with higher towing capacity and payload I'd be interested in something like this. Great to see that it's being developed in North America!

[OTRA15]

Well said, Tony. Put that Workhorse battery pack in the floor of a full-sized van like the new Ford Transit, add some range with more charging stations/options, and we will get out the checkbook.

To repeat -- "The impossible future is right here."

Bingo!

Originally Posted by Isuzusweet

. . .
The impossible future is right here . . .
. . .

[perryg114]

Cold hard truth but true.

Perry

Originally Posted by jdalrymple

Electric vehicles are not a solution to pollution control until power generation is zero emission.

All all the current "solutions" for climate change are a gnat on a bull's $ss.

Population control is the only solution.

The planet is simply not capable of supporting 10 billion folks living in air conditioned houses and driving any powered vehicle on blacktop roads.

Regards,

JD

[Bill M.]

For me, I will not live long enough to even consider an electric tow.

[Mollysdad]

The beauty of an electric tow vehicle we can agree on is that electric motors deliver maximum torque at low RMP. That's why electric cars are so fast off the line, perfect for towing.
If there are known charging stations, what happens when you arrive at the station towing your AS? Charging stations are not 40' long. Then, I'll be there first, so are you willing to wait while I'm charging? That infrastructure will have to be built along with the development of EV otherwise the public will tire of the downtime.
I thought by now we'd be driving hydrogen cars, where the only byproduct was O2. Oh, well.

Hybrid/electric vehicles have been towing for decades. Like:

[uncle_bob]

Hi

The diesel / electric locomotive is at it's heart, a solution to a transmission problem. Building an motor / generator turns out to be easier than doing a mechanical transmission in the case of a locomotive. You don't save any energy with it. The initial experiments date into the early 1900's.

If you want to go a bit crazy, electric fork lift "trucks" have been around for a *long* time. Some of them running empty have roughly the same range as the proposed EV solutions towing a 10,000 pound trailer.

Bob

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by Bill M.

For me, I will not live long enough to even consider an electric tow.

If you are still breathing, this Tesla is doing it right now.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...-x-160951.html

Maybe not the perfect solution, but as Tony said, "the future is here!"



PS -- Mollysdad, some of the later posts on that thread discuss the charging stations, some of which require unhitching the trailer to charge the Tesla. Room for improvement for sure.

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by perryg114

Hills and that extra mass would basically turn it into a gas/diesel to electric system like a freight train which would make it less efficient in the long run. Every time you convert energy from one form to anther you loose some. You would have to store too much energy. I have some friends who own a Prius. It worked great on relatively flat terrain but in the mountains it really struggles. Battery tech has a long way to go. Most of the power to charge electric vehicles comes from fossil fuels. Nuclear power in its present state is dangerous and expensive because we refuse to upgrade defective nuclear tech that was invented for submarines in the 1950's. Solar and wind are not there yet.

Perry

Solar and Wind will never be there. At best they are extravagantly expensive part time suppliers. And need subsidies. Its insane what we are doing. Nuclear has all the answers and advantages but PC has killed it. Instead we build Windmills made in China.

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Would you want a tow that has a 100 mile range?

Some simple / stupid math:

A sedan style car gets around 30 to 40 mpg these days.
Just about anything towing a 10,000 lb AS is down in the 10 mpg range
Call that a 3:1 ratio in terms of fuel.

If your electric vehicle gets a 300 mile range under normal conditions, figure it will do 100 miles when towing by the above math.

Yes, you can pick this apart. You get something back from engine brakes -> battery. You also need to add weight for bigger brakes / axles / tires / frame.

Unless you have a replaceable battery approach, pulling over every two hours to recharge for eight hours would be a bit of a pain.

Hybrid would help, but you likely would want a turbo diesel on it. Back to the weight thing again. If it's "only" a 3L it still is pretty big and heavy.

Narrow market? Sure is. If they start applying "no gas / no diesel after this date" rules to trucks - not much choice. Either there will be no more trucks (likely not an answer) or they will start churning out electrics. My bet in that case would be hydrogen fill ups. It's still a gas station, just a different kind of gas

Bob

300 Mile range with an electric? I never heard of one.

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by franklyfrank

300 Mile range with an electric? I never heard of one.

I think the Tesla X SUV has that kind of range (solo) IMO. [see recent Tesla Towing link]

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by Isuzusweet

EXACTLY!

For all those with Iphones in their hands; how many of you would have thought it crazy to be told ten years ago you'd carry and have instant access to the knowledge of the world in the palm of your hand, today.

The future of electric vehicles is a lot closer than you'd think. The technology is getting cheaper and more user friendly.

If you're hanging onto diesel and gas in 15 years, I think you're going to find it very difficult to find fuel; and if you think I'm crazy to say that......try and find a working phone booth anywhere. Have you looked lately? Used to be at every gas station, mall entrance and food store; but no more. In ten years they have all but disappeared from our world. In fact, my children wouldn't know how to operate one.

Cheers
Tony

I think you need to switch to decaf.
The world has been waiting for a workable electric vehicle for over a hundred years. And we still don't have one anywhere on the horizon.
They have great torque that is why its widely used in locomotives but the electricity for it is generated by guess what ? A beautiful powerful diesel engine.

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by franklyfrank

I think you need to switch to decaf.
The world has been waiting for a workable electric vehicle for over a hundred years. And we still don't have one anywhere on the horizon.
They have great torque that is why its widely used in locomotives but the electricity for it is generated by guess what ? A beautiful powerful diesel engine.

Oh, one more thing, diesel engines can easily be adopted to use Natural gas or a verity of other fuels.

[Piggy Bank]

As I sit in my V-8 pickup on I70, on the second day of 11 hours each day towing on the road, I would have to say that it's not looking likely.

Mass and weight of a tow vehicle contribute to control and safety. These detract from fuel efficiency.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by Isuzusweet

...

At what point will you buy an all electric, or possibly a hybrid tow vehicle?

What performance points would you like it to have?

What downsides could you live with? ( for example, charging times are getting less but electric infrastructure in parks could be a problem)

What price point increase would you accept to go electric?

What possible downsides could an electric tow vehicle exhibit?

People, we will have to start talking about this, sooner than later, as the future is coming rapidly.

Cheers
Tony

Maybe not the best question to ask older people and retirees pulling Airstream with pickup trucks? Just saying...maybe a handful of people on here have even driven an EV...

[Glenritas]

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

Maybe not the best question to ask older people and retirees pulling Airstream with pickup trucks? Just saying...maybe a handful of people on here have even driven an EV...

My gas truck only has a 200 mile range when towing , 300 otherwise.

So I find if I just go 200 miles to the next camp site it works out well .

So if I had an electric TV with a 200 milage towing it would work for me sort of.

By the way my daily driver is all electric

I've been toying with the idea of converting some of my classic vehicles to electric
boy would that cut way down on maintenance .

[ohmman]

I just returned from a 4000 mile trip with an EV (Tesla Model X) pulling a 22' Sport. For those of you who said it wouldn't be possible in your lifetimes, I am sorry you haven't made it to this post and may you rest in peace.

For those who bring up electric subsidies and level playing fields, let's discuss that. Is oil and gas exploration subsidized? How about the healthcare costs associated with vehicle emissions? Estimates vary but range from $15-20 per tank of fuel consumed. Those are external costs that are subsidized by society. I'm absolutely in favor of a level playing field, but it will include pricing in these externalities at the pump and at the point of electricity delivery. Electric incentive programs are a very wise investment for governments because they save money in the long run.

The majority of my vehicle miles are powered by my rooftop solar. My recent towing trip was powered by local energy, which did include coal in places like Montana and Idaho, but also wind in Alberta, hydroelectric in the Northwest, and solar in California. Electric motors are vastly more efficient than ICE, though, so my trip consumed a total of 2,138kWh of electricity. One gallon of gasoline has about 33.7kWh. My electricity represented about 64 gallons of gasoline for 4000 miles. Anyone else getting 62.5 mpg while towing?

It wasn't mindlessly easy to take the trip. I plan to update my other thread which was linked above with more details. It took logistical planning, but the trip was flexible and we were able to tow through relatively dead spots like all around Glacier National Park and a circuit around the Olympic Peninsula. I towed the trailer all the way up to Hurricane Ridge without issue and crossed Lookout Pass on I-90 silently and effortlessly. Power isn't an issue at all, but range definitely requires attention.

ICE TVs are easier. But after this trip, I agree with the OP that EVs cannot be dismissed. They aren't some pie in the sky future vehicle - they're here now and rapidly improving. I will be watching Tesla's unveiling of their semi in September with great interest to see how they're going to handle high rates of charging. Rumors have charge rates over 300kW in the works.

EVs aren't currently for everyone, but I would like an honest discussion of their benefits and drawbacks instead of blanket dismissals that aren't rooted in the data. I think this is a great place to have the discussion, because everyone I met on campgrounds around the US and Canada had a lot of enthusiasm for our rig, especially Airstreamers. Surely we'd all like to do the best for the beautiful places we visit.

[Isuzusweet]

Originally Posted by franklyfrank

I think you need to switch to decaf.
The world has been waiting for a workable electric vehicle for over a hundred years. And we still don't have one anywhere on the horizon.
They have great torque that is why its widely used in locomotives but the electricity for it is generated by guess what ? A beautiful powerful diesel engine.

I guess you didn't read and look at the video @ post no 40. They are here and coming to some form of sales/service hub near you, in the near future.

You're nuts if you think that GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota and Honda haven't stood up and noticed.

Cheers
Tony

[rmkrum]

If Toyota was to come out with a capable all-electric or gas/electric hybrid pickup truck with similar range and towing capacity to a Tacoma or better yet, Tundra, I'll be in line to buy one..

Until then, I'll just have to live with a conventional gasser. I'm quite sure they are coming and the technology is available. Just have to hit mass production price points, etc.

Note that there are already two Prius hybrid vehicles used for daily driving in our garage...

[jcl]

Originally Posted by franklyfrank

I think you need to switch to decaf.
The world has been waiting for a workable electric vehicle for over a hundred years. And we still don't have one anywhere on the horizon.
They have great torque that is why its widely used in locomotives but the electricity for it is generated by guess what ? A beautiful powerful diesel engine.

You seem to be conflating electric vehicles with battery electric vehicles. There are lots of electric drive vehicles that don't rely solely on batteries. Electrified railways are one example. Electric (trolley) transit buses are very common.

Just to stretch the imagination a little, consider an electric vehicle with a small battery, and a fuel cell. The fuel cell charges the battery. The fuel cell runs on hydrogen, with refuelling similar in concept to diesel, that is to say, rapid. The hydrogen comes from solar cells. In this sense, the fuel cell is a type of battery.

For one example of this system concept, look to Nikola. They project a 1200 mile range for their all electric drive semi truck. Refuelling via hydrogen. Able to pull a lot more than an Airstream, with more range than some are suggesting is the minimum requirement.

https://nikolamotor.com

Now, the Nikola isn't available yet, and it is too large for an Airstream. But it is mentioned because we see small urban electrics available now, and see development of large semi electrics, so what will stop the market between those two extremes from using the same or similar technology? Nothing, IMO. It is an exciting time. Unless, of course, you are wedded to diesel engines being the only option for pulling large loads.