When to go electric for a tow vehicle

[USAtraveler]

Originally Posted by Isuzusweet

Seen on the web:

Walmart installs first electric car charging station. July 15, 2011

Mollysdad.........Jcl...........: punk:Me

I've been saying......The world is changing far faster than most of us can tell it's changing, and if we continue to bury our head in the sand and not recognize these changes, we stand to lose out on jobs, money and clients.
Cheers, Tony

Ditto, ditto, and ditto, Tony.

BTW, the CA drought ended last Winter, Frank. Record snowfalls in the Sierras...still skiing up there in places. Tailpipe water not necessary. But hey, it's the thought that counts.

[TravlinMan]

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

I'd be shocked.

Already happenin in California.

Redlands:


Lakewood:


I saw them all over. They were everywhere. Includin Walmart.

[ohmman]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

Do you know if any of the charging stations are "pull through" for the combined rig?

In the plans for the new stations, there are pull through sites. They are set up as doubles, so a trailer would block on stall. Whether that's a limiting factor on a 40-station plaza will be determined once the Model 3 is produced in real numbers.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by Isuzusweet

Think about this though......You're a restraurant owner that decides to build a restraurant in a location that is frequented by the RV crowd. You place a number of super chargers in your parking lot that will quick charge an average vehicle in a hour. You give the consumer a choice, buy the electricity for one price and eat in the trailer, OR, come into the restaurant, eat and pay a reduced charge cost.

How many electric car owners, now, or in the future will adapt their stops and stays based on electrical supply? I'd say a lot of them will. In fact, look for fast chargers coming to a Wallmart near you when electrical cars become mainstream and not fringe.

Cheers
Tony

Hi

Here's the gotcha:

A normal charger that will do a typical car in an hour *does* fit into the electrical "footprint" of a big restaurant or Walmart. They run a *lot* of AC an the power is there.

For something that will tow 10,000 lb through mountains and still have 300 mile range, the energy used is massively more. That gets you into a "time to run new lines from the grid" install. When you call up the power company to do that, in a lot of areas the answer is pretty simple - nope, we're not doing it. It's that much power ....

If it's a restaurant, toss in the timing issue. People eat at fairly set times. You are going to have a lot full of customers three times a day and a lot that's empty for about 18 to 20 hours a day. If you are going to set up TV charging and not have people screaming at you, it's going to have to be for *multiple* units at the same time. Just putting in one isn't enough. Actually the same is true of almost any setting. If a charge is going to take an hour (or even 15 minutes) waiting in line while three guys get it done in front of you isn't any good. That wait time now becomes part of the whole "charge time" issue.

Bob

[TravlinMan]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

A normal charger that will do a typical car in an hour *does* fit into the electrical "footprint" of a big restaurant or Walmart.

And yet, there was a time when the smartist scientist on Earth coulda never imagined such a thing.

[ohmman]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Here's the gotcha:

A normal charger that will do a typical car in an hour *does* fit into the electrical "footprint" of a big restaurant or Walmart. They run a *lot* of AC an the power is there.

For something that will tow 10,000 lb through mountains and still have 300 mile range, the energy used is massively more. That gets you into a "time to run new lines from the grid" install. When you call up the power company to do that, in a lot of areas the answer is pretty simple - nope, we're not doing it. It's that much power ....

If it's a restaurant, toss in the timing issue. People eat at fairly set times. You are going to have a lot full of customers three times a day and a lot that's empty for about 18 to 20 hours a day. If you are going to set up TV charging and not have people screaming at you, it's going to have to be for *multiple* units at the same time. Just putting in one isn't enough. Actually the same is true of almost any setting. If a charge is going to take an hour (or even 15 minutes) waiting in line while three guys get it done in front of you isn't any good. That wait time now becomes part of the whole "charge time" issue.

Bob

I will argue that this problem is being solved, with caveats. The Tesla Supercharger stations, of which there are quite a few (seen here), are 135kW shared stalls. They have 8-20 stalls in most locations, meaning 4-10 135kW charging "stacks". As I mentioned upthread, they're installing larger stations now as the Model 3 release is imminent.

Queuing has been a rare but real issue in parts of Southern California, specifically en route to Vegas. That route has been remedied with additional locations, but between some charger vandalism and highway re-routes, there have been instances of queues. Queuing theory is interesting, though, in that you only need to add a small number of stalls in order to relieve long queues. Those of you who took statistics or engineering in college will remember this.

My concern is more about EV charging station competition and segregation. There are a couple of spots along I-80 up the hill from Sacramento en route to Donner where I've suggested Supercharger stations. They're not needed unless one is towing a trailer, since there's a charger in Rocklin and another in Truckee. I noticed the other day that EVgo has installed CHAdeMO (60+ kW) charging stations in those locales. I'm happy to see them, but I wonder if the power will no longer be available if Tesla wants to get into the same locations. I can charge there, it's just slower.

The grid is already seeing a transformation as wind and solar begin to create a lot of distributed production. In California, EV adoption is a big part of that conversation. On one hand, it can alleviate the grid surplus during the solar peak - mobile storage in the form of EVs is useful in that regard. Pricing and availability need to be used to balance production and use. In coastal California, many workplaces have rows of Level 2 chargers (9.6kW) for cars to charge while the owners are at work. This is a form of surplus absorption. However, EVs can also cause spot loads, as you mention. 40 cars showing up to one of those new plazas after Thanksgiving holiday will cause a big draw on the grid.

My point is that many of these problems are being solved on a smaller scale as we migrate upward to your personal 300 mile, 10k pound benchmark.

[joshjack]

Originally Posted by franklyfrank

Solar and Wind will never be there. At best they are extravagantly expensive part time suppliers. And need subsidies. Its insane what we are doing. Nuclear has all the answers and advantages but PC has killed it. Instead we build Windmills made in China.

I agree about Nuclear but you're wrong on both solar and wind. Both have continued to drop in cost and improve efficiency just in the past decade. And both have plenty of room for improvement.

Tesla's planned solar roofing tiles coming out this year will drop cost and improve ease of use a lot. There are businesses in our area that have already put in enough solar to cover peak use on sunny days, they stay on the grid for night time and/or stormy days.

In our area solar installers have convinced new home builders to build in solar and geothermal from day one, thus including it in the construction cost of the home. This in my mind is a no brainer - from day one you have a check from the utility company instead of a bill.

Lastly - back to nuclear. Until the NRC gets loosened up about, it won't happen. There are already good plans out there for home reactors that are buried and require no maintenance for 25 years. Yet there's no way they would ever be approved by our current government regulators.

[Isuzusweet]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Here's the gotcha:

A normal charger that will do a typical car in an hour *does* fit into the electrical "footprint" of a big restaurant or Walmart. They run a *lot* of AC an the power is there.

For something that will tow 10,000 lb through mountains and still have 300 mile range, the energy used is massively more. That gets you into a "time to run new lines from the grid" install. When you call up the power company to do that, in a lot of areas the answer is pretty simple - nope, we're not doing it. It's that much power ....

If it's a restaurant, toss in the timing issue. People eat at fairly set times. You are going to have a lot full of customers three times a day and a lot that's empty for about 18 to 20 hours a day. If you are going to set up TV charging and not have people screaming at you, it's going to have to be for *multiple* units at the same time. Just putting in one isn't enough. Actually the same is true of almost any setting. If a charge is going to take an hour (or even 15 minutes) waiting in line while three guys get it done in front of you isn't any good. That wait time now becomes part of the whole "charge time" issue.

Bob

Okay, I get your point, but this thread isn't about todays technology (which has shocked a number of readers here, (including myself I might add); this thread is looking at tomorrows technology and at what point would you consider changing over to an electric tow vehicle.

Yes, the infastructure is just not quite there yet, and recharge times are still a bit too long, but son-ava-gun things are changing faster than you can read this thread. How long ago that a Nissan Leaf required 13 hours to recharge and you now have Tesla's doing the very same in less than an hour?

How long before someone comes up with a plug-in-play system of battery packs, like that of your propane 20 lb exchange; automatically swapping out your depleted battery pack for a recharged new one. You'd drive into a battery exchange facility (gas station) and position your car like at a touchless car wash; a set of robotic arms would disconnect your battery, remove it and replace it with a fully charged unit, (think cordless tools). Since you're always exchanging a battery pack for another one, you would never have the worry that existing electric car owners have of having the huge expense of OEM battery pack replacements, as once a battery pack is deemed used up, it would be recycled and the charge being distributed to all the vehicles on the road. The replacement battery pack charge would be the same for everyone, however if you're powering a 1 ton P/U towing a fifth wheel trailer and you need to swap battery packs more often, you will obviously pay more than someone grocery shopping once a week in a tiny car, (just like gasoline).

I betcha with an automatic billing system attached to the vehicle or some sort of tap system the vehicle owner would never have to get out of the vehicle and it would take seconds, not minutes.

Plus, depleted battery packs could be recharge at off hours.

Please don't tell me this will never happen.

Would you buy an electric TV if this system was prevalent everywhere?

Cheers
Tony

[chicagoair]

Originally Posted by Isuzusweet

Please don't tell me this will never happen.

Tesla demoed this exact concept in 2013: https://youtu.be/Oj6LaYFall4

[rmkrum]

The only thing constant about technology change is the rate of change; and it is constantly changing.

Remember that Thomas Watson, founder of IBM once said the world only needed maybe 4-5 computers.

There are more than that in the usual smart phone.

[Isuzusweet]

Originally Posted by chicagoair

Tesla demoed this exact concept in 2013: https://youtu.be/Oj6LaYFall4

See, this is why I'm not rich; someone else has thought it all up years ago........

Seriously, I didn't know that video existed until this evening......Wow! Now all they need to do is build the infrastructure (convert existing gas stations) and increase range and towing power.

Cheers
Tony

[ohmman]

Originally Posted by Isuzusweet

See, this is why I'm not rich; someone else has thought it all up years ago........

Seriously, I didn't know that video existed until this evening......Wow! Now all they need to do is build the infrastructure (convert existing gas stations) and increase range and towing power.

So I am sad to break it to you, but they did turn up Harris Ranch as a battery swap station. I was invited to test it with my Model S, along with a number of other owners. They had a few takers, but as it turns out, people were happy enough stopping for 20-30 minutes at the Superchargers there (enough to get to the next charging station). Demand was almost nonexistent, so they abandoned it, at least for the time being.

Without towing, road trips in a Tesla really do mean stops of 20 minutes every couple of hours. We've put 60k miles on our two Teslas and much of that is on road trips. It's not always ideal to have those stops, but most of the time on a vacation it's really not inconvenient. The thing that tweaks that a bit is the towing aspect. Let's keep our eyes on what they have planned for their semi project when they announce it in September. That should give us an idea of what one manufacturer is thinking when it comes to fast recharging while hauling a load.

[AirstreamCSH]

As I write this, I'm sitting in Forks WA and I'm having a hard enough time getting fresh clean diesel that I can't imagine how a large battery pack exchange station would work out. For major metro areas perhaps but as a TV, it will be a very long time.

[ohmman]

Originally Posted by AirstreamCSH

As I write this, I'm sitting in Forks WA and I'm having a hard enough time getting fresh clean diesel that I can't imagine how a large battery pack exchange station would work out. For major metro areas perhaps but as a TV, it will be a very long time.

Slightly off topic, but the Forks 101 RV Park allowed us to charge for a couple of hours while we circuited the Peninsula last month with our AS. We went across the street and grabbed some pizza.

[AstroBruce]

I have been following this thread. I have no opinion on EV, now, or in the future. I was wondering how one pays for charging. Is it free at some places? Pay by credit card? Is one charged by the kilowatt? What is the going rate? Do prices vary? I haven't heard any of this discussed. Just curious.

Bruce

[ohmman]

Originally Posted by AstroBruce

I have been following this thread. I have no opinion on EV, now, or in the future. I was wondering how one pays for charging. Is it free at some places? Pay by credit card? Is one charged by the kilowatt? What is the going rate? Do prices vary? I haven't heard any of this discussed. Just curious.

The answer is "yes." That is, it varies significantly.

The most important thing to remember is that the majority of EV owners right now live in single family homes, and charge at home. One of the benefits is that you never really go out to "fill up" - it happens every night while you sleep. So for the majority of miles, owners pay their local electricity rates.

For those without home charging (think apartment buildings, homes with street parking, etc.), charging out and about is necessary. The same goes for owners on road trips, even if they do have charging at home.

With my Teslas, Supercharging (Tesla-supplied fast charging) is supplied by Tesla free of charge. I have unlimited miles for the life of the car. Off of the Tesla network, there are other options. Workplaces out here in California often offer charging for free. All of the public parking garages in San Francisco have free charging available. Many municipalities around the country have EV chargers that are free as well. Hotels, grocery stores, and other retail outlets will often offer free charging to bring in customers.

There are a few large EV networks, namely Chargepoint, EVgo, and Blink. They have placed chargers strategically and they charge in various fashions for them. Either by time, by kWh, or by session. Some states have limits on who is allowed to charge for energy sales - it can make a provider fall under the utility umbrella - so they get around it by making a time-based or session-based cost.

How much does it cost? Well, again, it varies. The efficiency of the car matters, of course, just like with an ICE. With my Model S and X, I consume around 300Wh/mi. My cars' charging is covered by my rooftop solar on the house, but if I were paying California's expensive rates, I'd pay 11c/kWh in the evening. Adding about 80kWh to my car would cost $8.80 and would allow me to go 267 miles.

Charging on the networks is slightly more expensive because they have a profit to consider.

If I haven't bored you enough with the variation in charging options, you can check out the website Plugshare, which shows a map with many options available to EV owners. Clicking on icons will often give details about cost. Note that many people, myself included, share their home chargers for free.

[AstroBruce]

Thanks for the helpful explanation. Are you being facetious when you say 11c per KW is expensive? I pay over 15c per KW here in PA.

Bruce

[ohmman]

Originally Posted by AstroBruce

Thanks for the helpful explanation. Are you being facetious when you say 11c per KW is expensive? I pay over 15c per KW here in PA.



Bruce

Sorry, no. That's an off peak overnight rate in a place where daytime rates are 43c/kWh.

Average daytime rates around the country are somewhere near 12c, I believe.

[AstroBruce]

Soooooo, if you choose wisely where to charge, energy costs are zero. I got 220,000 miles out of my last Ram 2500 Turbodiesel. I'm going to get out my calculator and see what it cost me to fuel that thing.

Bruce

[AstroBruce]

Originally Posted by AstroBruce

Soooooo, if you choose wisely where to charge, energy costs are zero. I got 220,000 miles out of my last Ram 2500 Turbodiesel. I'm going to get out my calculator and see what it cost me to fuel that thing.

Bruce

220,000 miles, 15 mpg, $3.00 per gal. That comes to $44,000 in fuel costs. I am really sorry I figured that out.

Bruce