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Old 12-02-2018, 02:15 PM   #461
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Yep, and it takes 30 minutes to charge. And that assumes you get there first and no one else is there.

And if you go to South Dakota there are 3 in the entire state all along the Interstate Highway. And if you are in Northern Wisconsin thereís only one and that is in Duluth, MN, and one in Eau Claire, WI, and one in Green Bay, WI

The reason Baileys Harbor is big on them is Door County is a Mecca for tourists. We have lots of rich people with lake homes that can afford electric cars. Not the case is most rural areas of the country.
My situation is different, since I live in an urban area, and our provincial electricity generation is around 95% renewable. On the downtown peninsula of Vancouver, where I live, our very last gas station is currently listed for sale. There are around 120,000 people living in that neighbourhood, and many more working there. We have more than 20 public EV charging stations in just that area, many of them multiple bay, and new buildings have EV chargers per the building code. Developers are now going beyond the requirement for x% of spaces having chargers in multi unit developments, and putting them in all spaces.

Fuel cells are being developed locally (Ballard) as are other technologies (LNG for trucks and heavy equipment/rail/marine)

GM can see this coming, with their recent announcement to cease car production and focus on EVs and AVs.
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Old 12-02-2018, 04:23 PM   #462
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Admittedly VERY ignorant question here...

Junior high school science included separating hydrogen from oxygen using a battery. What prevents creation of hydrogen on a larger scale to drive a combustion engine through electrolysis? Fill your tank with water, separate with electricity (i.e., battery) and fuel with hydrogen....surely Iím missing something or weíd be doing it already....


It takes energy to create electrolysis. That energy has to come from somewhere. Just do a simple search and quit insulting me. The primary challenge for hydrogen is reducing the cost of production to make the hydrogen cost competitive with traditional fuels. It isnít quite so simple. Yet.

Right now the energy content of the produced hydrogen is less than the energy content of the original fuel. Also steam reforming produces CO2 because right now fossil fuels are used.
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Old 12-02-2018, 05:47 PM   #463
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It takes energy to create electrolysis. That energy has to come from somewhere. Just do a simple search and quit insulting me. The primary challenge for hydrogen is reducing the cost of production to make the hydrogen cost competitive with traditional fuels. It isnít quite so simple. Yet.

Right now the energy content of the produced hydrogen is less than the energy content of the original fuel. Also steam reforming produces CO2 because right now fossil fuels are used.
All that matters to me is cost per mile. If I did an energy calculation I wouldnít be driving a Dodge Cummins. An EV would be a nice cheap way to commute to work.
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Old 12-02-2018, 06:38 PM   #464
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Thank you JCL and Lgebhardt. I appreciate the insights.

Wow, Daquenzer (#462) - I didnít realize a legitimate question was an insult to you. . I promise not to ask you anything else....sheesh...🤮
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Old 12-02-2018, 06:39 PM   #465
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All that matters to me is cost per mile. If I did an energy calculation I wouldnít be driving a Dodge Cummins. An EV would be a nice cheap way to commute to work.


Again I can totally see an EV as a commuter. It just isnít a long distance vehicle yet. And at some point an EV will be common. But costs have to come down. The government cannot continue to subsidize them. Right now a hybrid is more flexible and better option financially.
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Old 12-03-2018, 02:35 PM   #466
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Thank you JCL and Lgebhardt. I appreciate the insights.

Wow, Daquenzer (#462) - I didnít realize a legitimate question was an insult to you. . I promise not to ask you anything else....sheesh...🤮


When you called my question ignorant that was a bit insulting.
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Old 12-03-2018, 03:27 PM   #467
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When you called my question ignorant that was a bit insulting.
You know he was referring to his own question that followed, and not to your post, right?
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Old 12-03-2018, 04:08 PM   #468
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When you called my question ignorant that was a bit insulting.


Oh my gosh - I see the problem - I was teeing up MY question to follow in that reply as a very ignorant question because I literally had no idea why we couldnít fill a tank with water and allow batteries to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen on the fly....

Sorry I wasnít clearer - I had absolutely no intention of insulting you whatsoever - I could have worded that better!

And my missing that construct the first time around made me wonder what the heck is this guy feeling insulted about when *Iím* the one calling myself ďignorantĒ?

No harm intended!
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Old 12-03-2018, 04:10 PM   #469
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You know he was referring to his own question that followed, and not to your post, right?


Thanks. Yes, youíre right - though going back to that reply just now, I can totally see how I could have set that up better to avoid any possible misunderstanding.

Ah the joys of talking on a screen.
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Old 12-03-2018, 04:14 PM   #470
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You know he was referring to his own question that followed, and not to your post, right?
Yeah, even I got that....relax Daquenzer, no body is insulting anyone but themselves.

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Old 12-03-2018, 04:56 PM   #471
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Oh my gosh - I see the problem - I was teeing up MY question to follow in that reply as a very ignorant question because I literally had no idea why we couldnít fill a tank with water and allow batteries to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen on the fly....

Sorry I wasnít clearer - I had absolutely no intention of insulting you whatsoever - I could have worded that better!

And my missing that construct the first time around made me wonder what the heck is this guy feeling insulted about when *Iím* the one calling myself ďignorantĒ?

No harm intended!


My misunderstanding as well. When I went back and read it better I see what you meant. Uggh. The problem of posts. My apologies.
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Old 12-03-2018, 05:20 PM   #472
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My misunderstanding as well. When I went back and read it better I see what you meant. Uggh. The problem of posts. My apologies.


All good.

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Old 12-04-2018, 05:02 AM   #473
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The other difficulty with producing hydrogen is that the most efficient catalyst is platinum, which is mega-expensive. The longevity of the membranes and its ability to operate in a range of environments is also difficult. But for some places they might be great! If car companies want to push PEM fuel cells it will really be up to them to produce the filling stations like Tesla has done to boost the process.
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Old 12-04-2018, 04:17 PM   #474
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The other difficulty with producing hydrogen is that the most efficient catalyst is platinum, which is mega-expensive. The longevity of the membranes and its ability to operate in a range of environments is also difficult. But for some places they might be great! If car companies want to push PEM fuel cells it will really be up to them to produce the filling stations like Tesla has done to boost the process.
There is actually an experimental process right now that uses nickel alloys.

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...e_earth_alloys

If this can be mastered it would make the process way cheaper. But it's all quite complicated.

Not sure why we can't have a hybrid in a tow vehicle.

http://triadfreightliner.com/freight...emi-truck-yet/

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/vo...ybrid-big-rigs
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Old 12-08-2018, 12:05 PM   #475
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Yep, and it takes 30 minutes to charge. And that assumes you get there first and no one else is there.

And if you go to South Dakota there are 3 in the entire state all along the Interstate Highway. And if you are in Northern Wisconsin thereís only one and that is in Duluth, MN, and one in Eau Claire, WI, and one in Green Bay, WI

The reason Baileys Harbor is big on them is Door County is a Mecca for tourists. We have lots of rich people with lake homes that can afford electric cars. Not the case is most rural areas of the country.
There are significantly more than 3 in South Dakota. You can check PlugShare to see (https://www.plugshare.com). Tesla alone has 7 of their high powered charging locations in South Dakota, each with anywhere from 6-20 chargers. I could pull my Airstream across the state with my EV.

Wisconsin is covered in chargers as well. And don't forget that every campsite with electricity is a charging station that takes none of your time to charge.

There is a couple with a Model X who made it all the way east across Canada, down to Florida, across the southern US and back up the coast hauling their camper. It can be done. It is not as simple as the alternative yet, but it's getting closer.
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Old 12-08-2018, 12:32 PM   #476
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There are significantly more than 3 in South Dakota. You can check PlugShare to see (https://www.plugshare.com). Tesla alone has 7 of their high powered charging locations in South Dakota, each with anywhere from 6-20 chargers. I could pull my Airstream across the state with my EV.



Wisconsin is covered in chargers as well. And don't forget that every campsite with electricity is a charging station that takes none of your time to charge.



There is a couple with a Model X who made it all the way east across Canada, down to Florida, across the southern US and back up the coast hauling their camper. It can be done. It is not as simple as the alternative yet, but it's getting closer.


Just donít go off interstate .
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Old 12-08-2018, 12:36 PM   #477
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Just donít go off interstate .
Electricity is widespread, more widespread than gas. It just takes planning and potentially, a lot of time . We towed through the dead space of Montana up past East Glacier into Canada, and made it just fine. We had to take our time, but that wasn't a big deal to us at the time.
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Old 12-08-2018, 05:44 PM   #478
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Electricity is widespread, more widespread than gas. It just takes planning and potentially, a lot of time . We towed through the dead space of Montana up past East Glacier into Canada, and made it just fine. We had to take our time, but that wasn't a big deal to us at the time.


How much time? How far can you tow on one charge? How long did it take to charge to drive again?
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Old 12-08-2018, 09:38 PM   #479
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How much time? How far can you tow on one charge? How long did it take to charge to drive again?
I posted more details in my other thread, but generally speaking, we can get about 120 miles between charges with the Airstream behind us. A typical travel day is under 300 miles, though we've done 400. We leave the campsite full (because we plug into the 50A) and stop once after 100 or so miles, charge for 30-45 minutes, stop a second time for the same or less charging time, and arrive at the next campsite ready to plug in. Battery charging speed tapers as the pack gets full, so we try not to have to go all the way full between stops, but sometimes it's unavoidable. The biggest battery pack available now on the X would make this a lot easier, but I'm hoping for an announcement on an even bigger one.. we'll see.

On the trip past Glacier, we charged in Missoula and then stayed in West Glacier for a couple of nights. Circuited the park, camped in East Glacier for a few more at the KOA, then drove north across the border and charged at Fort MacLeod, then Calgary, then over to Banff for camping. A handful of days in Banff. So during that whole duration, we only really stopped for charging a few times - most of the charging happened at the campsites. That's just a little bit of planning.
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Old 12-09-2018, 05:14 AM   #480
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Originally Posted by Daquenzer View Post
It takes energy to create electrolysis. That energy has to come from somewhere. Just do a simple search and quit insulting me. The primary challenge for hydrogen is reducing the cost of production to make the hydrogen cost competitive with traditional fuels. It isnít quite so simple. Yet.

Right now the energy content of the produced hydrogen is less than the energy content of the original fuel. Also steam reforming produces CO2 because right now fossil fuels are used.
Just do a simple search and quit insulting me. --------
So glad I did not ask for your advice and assistance! Yes, everyone here CAN learn to use Search... four responses, pick one:

1) feel gratified that you could be helpful AND that your explanation might be clearer than some multi-syllabic, jargon filled geek's

2) recognize that we are all ignorant, just on different subjects

3) If you think you are being insulted because you have been given credit for having a high I.Q. perhaps you need a social cue, so here goes: you CAN slow down to help a normal to moderately gifted person, but that person CANNOT change into a genius to suit your convenience or demands

4) you did have the option of remaining silent and not wasting your mighty intellect on us, the unwashed masses
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