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01-28-2018, 11:22 AM
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#381
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Rivet Master
2013 31' Classic
billings
, Montana
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lsbrodsky
Not me, they will have to pry internal combustion engines out of my cold, dead hands.
Besides, in my lifetime, there will never be an electric vehicle that can tow 8000# 400 miles in all-terrain at 60 mph and refuel in 15 minutes.
Finally, I do not think anyone has really publically addressed the issue of battery disposal when everyone is driving an electric car and keeps the car beyond the battery life.
Larry
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Already running trucks . 80,000 gross, 500 miles, 65 mph.... 45 min charge..check it out...things are changing fast...
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01-28-2018, 12:28 PM
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#382
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4 Rivet Member
2017 22' Sport
North Bay
, California
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azeeb
It doesn't matter what size service is inside each house. The grid doesn't have the capacity to supply a maximum amount of power to every house in a neighborhood at the same time.
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You are correct that service size in the house doesn't mean everyone can maximize it, but they have to size the grid appropriately for the panels that are served. I don't know the NEC requirement, but I'm guessing it's similar to the way you size a panel in the house based on service.
My point is that permitting larger panels in the houses does have some correlation with grid capacity. But we are in agreement that the grid will need to have incremental upgrades as adoption continues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by azeeb
The average home in the U.S. uses about 900 kWh per month.
Let's assume an average family has two electric vehicles that get driven 12k miles annually each. Electric sedans are getting around 0.35 kWh per mile. Charging 2 vehicles that drive 1000 miles per month each will require another 700 kWh per month.
That is close to doubling the current average usage of 900 kWh per month per household. 900 kWh goes to 1600 kWh per month. It's going to take some pretty extreme upgrades to the power grid if every household is going to double their electricity consumption. Many areas of the country already struggle handling the load in hot weather when everyone is running the A/C.
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I believe you're conflating power and energy here. I could triple my monthly energy consumption without impacting the grid if I do it at off-peak times. The issue is with the power delivery during spikes in usage. So it doesn't matter much what my monthly energy usage is, it matters more when I am using that power, how much I'm using, and who else is using power at that time. This is why the grid struggles in some places with high AC demand. All the units are kicking on at the same time in response to weather conditions.
If everyone chooses to charge at night, this will indeed be a strong power demand. But that's a solvable problem. Here in California, many workplaces have chargers so people charge during the day when they're at the office. Some, like me, have solar and battery storage. EVs have the potential to flatten the duck curve created by solar overproduction. Rates will invert at some point to make this economically advantageous for customers.
One nice thing about the additional energy usage created by an EV is that it drops the rooftop solar ROI significantly. Here in California where rates are sky-high already, ROI can be in the 4-5 year timeframe.
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01-28-2018, 12:57 PM
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#383
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Rivet Master
2018 27' International
Southeastern MI
, Michigan
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azeeb
It doesn't matter what size service is inside each house. The grid doesn't have the capacity to supply a maximum amount of power to every house in a neighborhood at the same time.
The average home in the U.S. uses about 900 kWh per month.
Let's assume an average family has two electric vehicles that get driven 12k miles annually each. Electric sedans are getting around 0.35 kWh per mile. Charging 2 vehicles that drive 1000 miles per month each will require another 700 kWh per month.
That is close to doubling the current average usage of 900 kWh per month per household. 900 kWh goes to 1600 kWh per month. It's going to take some pretty extreme upgrades to the power grid if every household is going to double their electricity consumption. Many areas of the country already struggle handling the load in hot weather when everyone is running the A/C.
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The upgrades will yield a 100% increase in electricity sales to customers driving EVs. Let the market decide. When that happens I’ll buy more utility stocks.
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01-29-2018, 07:16 AM
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#384
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2 Rivet Member
2017 25' Flying Cloud
Midland
, Michigan
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohmman
I believe you're conflating power and energy here. I could triple my monthly energy consumption without impacting the grid if I do it at off-peak times. The issue is with the power delivery during spikes in usage. So it doesn't matter much what my monthly energy usage is, it matters more when I am using that power, how much I'm using, and who else is using power at that time. This is why the grid struggles in some places with high AC demand. All the units are kicking on at the same time in response to weather conditions.
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The research does not agree with you. The power delivery spike is much larger for electric vehicle households, even when charging at off hours. Approximately double that of a typical household with no electric vehicle. Yes, the spike comes at a different time of day. Yes, it works well now because there are so few electric vehicles. No, it is not sustainable if everyone was charging an electric vehicle at the same time.
See also this article:
https://blogs.oracle.com/utilities/t...hile-you-sleep
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01-29-2018, 07:47 AM
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#385
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4 Rivet Member
2017 22' Sport
North Bay
, California
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azeeb
The research does not agree with you. The power delivery spike is much larger for electric vehicle households, even when charging at off hours. Approximately double that of a typical household with no electric vehicle. Yes, the spike comes at a different time of day. Yes, it works well now because there are so few electric vehicles. No, it is not sustainable if everyone was charging an electric vehicle at the same time.
See also this article:
https://blogs.oracle.com/utilities/t...hile-you-sleep
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Thanks for the blog piece. It appears to reiterate what I said in my post. The economic incentives are set to encourage after midnight charging. Those are likely to change (tier inversion) as adoption grows.
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01-29-2018, 08:26 AM
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#386
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2 Rivet Member
Schoharie
, Unknown
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 68
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I certainly support EV development as they have been trying to get it off the ground for more than 100 years. However, I would like to maintain the freedom of choice. I remember when diesel fuel was much cheaper than gas, but when diesel pickups became more popular, diesel fuel prices went up higher than gas. I still a choice of which to drive and which fuel pump to use. I think as EV use increases, electric prices will rise(for everyone). So, the retired couple or working family that heats/cools with electricity will pay even more for their daily living. This as the electrical companys are forced to upgrade grids. Localities and busiess sites will have to set up charging stations, etc. Insofar as a mileage "fee" at vehicle registration, lol... A lot of the taxes earmarked for road care in New York seems to end up in a general.fund, and the roads see little of it. So if a plan like that goes in effect, people may start limiting their travel. How many businesses will be affected by that? Future generations would start looking at our great land on a computer screen, it would be cheaper and easier than going through the hassle/expense of visiting it in person... what shame that would be... : (
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01-30-2018, 11:01 AM
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#387
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Rivet Master
2018 27' International
Southeastern MI
, Michigan
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,344
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I doubt all that will happen.
__________________
2018 International Serenity 27' FB
Michelin 16” tires
Hensley Arrow hitch
Tow Vehicle: 2020 F-350 6.7L Diesel
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01-30-2018, 11:19 AM
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#388
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Rivet Master
1964 26' Overlander
1974 31' Sovereign
Milton
, ON
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Countryboy59
I doubt all that will happen.
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All what, Countryboy59? Please use the Quote button so we know what you're referring to.
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01-30-2018, 11:36 AM
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#389
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Rivet Master
2018 27' International
Southeastern MI
, Michigan
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidsonOverlander
All what, Countryboy59? Please use the Quote button so we know what you're referring to.
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All the gloom and doom in the post above mine. Retirees going broke because electricity goes through the roof (most retirees I know have way more money than me). The grid collapsing and wires falling everywhere (already happening because it needs updating). Etc.
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01-30-2018, 12:41 PM
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#390
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4 Rivet Member
2011 30' Flying Cloud
Greenback
, Tennessee
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 294
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Change is hard!
Like it or not, internal-combustion engines are on the way out, whether we like it or not. Old dudes, like most of us here, may be able to ride it out, but it is just kicking the can down the road to our progeny. Maybe electric vehicles are not the wave of the distant future, but this "glut" of fossil fuels will be short-lived and electric vehicles, even if "fueled"by coal-fired plants, can help in the short run. What is it about the word "non-renewable" that people don't understand? Our infrastructure is in need of updating/replacing anyway, so why not bite the bullet and start preparing for the inevitable now, rather than waiting until fossil fuels, particularly oil and gas, are fiendishly expensive and overall costs have increased dramatically. The prevailing attitude seems to be, "Let our children pay for it; after all, what has posterity ever done for me?" I'm just sayin" .....
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01-30-2018, 02:20 PM
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#391
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Rivet Master
2023 23' International
Macon
, Georgia
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gneiss Guy
What is it about the word "non-renewable" that people don't understand?
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With the new oil fields being discovered on the African continent and other more remote areas around the earth and new technologies being developed to extract oil (fracking, etc), I think the world's oil supply will soon be measured in centuries rather than decades as previously thought...
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01-30-2018, 07:10 PM
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#392
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Rivet Master
1964 26' Overlander
1974 31' Sovereign
Milton
, ON
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadtech
With the new oil fields being discovered on the African continent and other more remote areas around the earth and new technologies being developed to extract oil (fracking, etc), I think the world's oil supply will soon be measured in centuries rather than decades as previously thought...
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That doesn't change the fact that it's non-renewable, it's just putting the problem off for our children to solve. It also doesn't solve the problem of putting more CO2 and other pollutants into the atmosphere. Even if there are centuries worth of fossil fuels remaining the supply is still finite and there's no way to predict what we might need them for in the future.
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01-30-2018, 08:49 PM
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#393
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Rivet Master
2023 23' International
Macon
, Georgia
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidsonOverlander
Even if there are centuries worth of fossil fuels remaining the supply is still finite and there's no way to predict what we might need them for in the future.
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???
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01-30-2018, 09:21 PM
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#394
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Rivet Master
2012 25' FB Eddie Bauer
Vintage Kin Owner
Virginia Beach
, Virginia
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,801
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Ancient History TAXATION
Several years ago 2008 maybe there was a fuss about running diesels on used vegetable oil. I actually met a man who had his diesel converted. Ran regular petro diesel until the engine got warm then he manually switched to a 50 gallon tank of filtered oil... switched back to petro a few minutes before turning the engine off too. Smelled like taco bell most of the time. The website may still be around www.greasecar.com
At the end of every year he had to report his total mileage and pay Virginia and Federal Gas taxes after subtracting what he had already paid for conventional diesel.
__________________
Today is a gift, that's why they call it the present.
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01-31-2018, 01:51 AM
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#395
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Rivet Master
2018 27' International
Southeastern MI
, Michigan
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foiled Again
Ancient History TAXATION
Several years ago 2008 maybe there was a fuss about running diesels on used vegetable oil. I actually met a man who had his diesel converted. Ran regular petro diesel until the engine got warm then he manually switched to a 50 gallon tank of filtered oil... switched back to petro a few minutes before turning the engine off too. Smelled like taco bell most of the time. The website may still be around www.greasecar.com
At the end of every year he had to report his total mileage and pay Virginia and Federal Gas taxes after subtracting what he had already paid for conventional diesel.
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Meanwhile thousands of others ran Greasel conversions and didn’t run their mouths, and paid nothing.
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01-31-2018, 08:06 AM
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#396
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Dazed and Confused
Currently Looking...
1983 31' Airstream310
Hillsburgh
, Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,805
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The funny thing is, it's not the gas or diesel savings that appeal to me buying an electric car; it's the simplicity of it. The lack of moving parts in comparison to ICE vehicles. Let's face it, vehicles have become over complex, over weight, and bloody expensive to fix.
It surprised the heck out of me, when I found out that a 4 cylinder, FWD, 2dr, little hot hatch, (Honda Civic type R), weighs more than my solid rear axle, V6, 4X4, 4dr Chevy Tracker.🤤
__________________
Per Mare, Per Terram and may all your campaigns be successful.
“It’s a recession when your neighbor loses his job; it’s a depression when you lose your own.” "Harry S Truman"
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01-31-2018, 07:41 PM
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#397
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Rivet Master
1964 26' Overlander
1974 31' Sovereign
Milton
, ON
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadtech
With the new oil fields being discovered on the African continent and other more remote areas around the earth and new technologies being developed to extract oil (fracking, etc), I think the world's oil supply will soon be measured in centuries rather than decades as previously thought...
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I wouldn't count on oil from other parts of the world. There are almost four times as many people in Africa than in the USA, and they might want to keep that oil for themselves. There have been enough wars over oil already. If we (North America) put off the move away from fossil fuels then we will trail the rest of the world in developing the technology.
The novel American War is an interesting look at one possible outcome.
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02-28-2018, 04:51 PM
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#398
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,578
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The Advanced Clean Transportation Expo is coming up at the end of April. Not specifically about tow vehicles, but a good exhibition of a wide range of alternate fuel vehicles from electric pickups to heavy trucks.
Given the interest expressed in this thread on alternate fuel options, I thought some may like to see what will be displayed. I see Daimler bringing CNG products to Class 8 (with racks behind the cab for multiple CNG tanks, to get sufficient range); there is an all electric SUV; there is a hybrid electric Freightliner, hybrid pickups from Workforce and Ford (F150 and F250), Cummins Westport NG engines including the 6.7, and so on. Bit of a glimpse into the near future (and in the case of the Thor and the Airflow Starship, perhaps the mid term future)
https://www.actexpo.com/vehicles
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02-28-2018, 05:33 PM
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#399
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Rivet Master
2019 30' Classic
Canfield
, Ohio
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,559
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Two weeks ago , and after waiting 1 1/2 years, my wife and I received our 2018 Model 3 Tesla. It is a wonderful car. This is never going to be a TV for us, but we bought it after driving my son's Model S.
The remarkable thing about it, is that it is the most powerful car I've ever driven, and I've owned some muscle cars in my early years. It is truly remarkable off the line with continuous power.
Let move ahead about a year or two. Elon Musk has announced he will be making a pickup truck. In two years I believe the range of the truck will be 500-600 miles. It will have more torque than any current pickup and Elon bragged it will carry a current pickup. An electric TV will be at home in a campsite with 30 or 50 amp station nearby, and would practically eliminate the largest cost in traveling, the fuel. My model three, using the tesla superchargers, can travel from New York to Los angeles for about $105 in electricity. It currently charges at night in my garage at about 30 miles per hour of charge.
I just bought an F-250 diesel (2017) for my new TV. The complexity of that engine is way beyond my knowledge. The fluids, filters, air cleaning DEF, radiators, transmission are all very complex and very expensive to buy and maintain. Imagine an electric TV with one electric motor, no transmission, no gears, no fluids (well one gear housing with oil) no radiators, more storage, more torque, more speed, and no diesel smell or noise.
It's all coming soon to a Tesla dealer near you.
__________________
"At some point, throwing money at the problem *is* the right answer", Uncle Bob
x\x/x\x/x\x/x\x/x\101970\x/x\x/x\x/x\x/x\x/x\/x\x/x\x/x
Tom & Doty
2019 Airstream Classic 30 Twin
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02-28-2018, 07:24 PM
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#400
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Rivet Master
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor
, New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
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You might be interested in this thread, turk123, if you are not already:
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...-x-160951.html
We test drove a Model X last year and were favorably impressed.
Cheers,
Peter
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