When to go electric for a tow vehicle

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by markdoane

A Model X P100D was parked next to me at the bread store.
. . .

Good double entendre!

$$$

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by markdoane

. . .
. . . Loved the hinged rear doors. Inside looked like a space ship.

We test drove one last summer, and those doors actually freaked us out a bit, in terms of getting out of the vehicle after an accident or emergency inside. They operate really slowly, and you can't open them if you are close to a wall or another vehicle.

As "cool" as the front control panel is, it does require the driver to look down a lot in order to input stuff. This is very distracting from the duties of driving, and a recent news article faulted Tesla and other car manufacturers for this aspect of the new "dashboards."

I encourage everyone to test drive the Model X. The future may be here, but it is not without a new set of compromises and hidden dangers.

Have a great Thanksgiving!

Peter


[Test drive info in the following part of the Towing With Tesla X thread -- click on orange arrow to go there]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

FYI we took the test drive of the X model (without towing a trailer). This is a pretty amazing vehicle, so if you are near one of the Tesla Explores promotional areas this summer (see link below), it is definitely worth looking at. With very few moving parts, AWD, good crash-worthiness safety ratings, and technological advances too numerous to list, it is probably a glimpse into the future. As a second family vehicle which can also tow the FC20 when needed, it is an attractive possibility for an upgrade to the daily driver.

[OTRA15]

A number of posts on ohmman's Towing with Tesla X thread got a bit OT, so for further comment on his Post #356 here about the new Tesla semi truck, those other posts are quoted below.

Have a good weekend.

Peter

[click on orange arrow to go to the other thread]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

Thanks for your updates on the EV Towing thread about the new I-5 charging station and lounge.
. . .
When Tesla's new semi truck rig hits the road, will there be a new generation of charging stations for those large rigs?
. . .

Originally Posted by switz

The thought of a sub-division street with all homes having electric cars is a major pipe dream. There is not enough electric power at this time to have each home charging a constant 100 amp load to charge all the cars at once. There is conversation about the Tesla truck. No power grid to recharge that at a truck stop for years to come.

Originally Posted by OTRA15

Maybe not, but my impression is that the new Tesla semi truck may first be marketed to distribution wholesalers with regional centers. The range of 400 miles would permit one-day runs within a radius of, say, 50-75 miles from the distribution center. All of our local supermarkets are service by these wholesalers, including IGA's which use Bozzuttos out of southern CT.

Thus each such center could have its own charging station, and -- good news -- is that the charging would occur during the night when better electric rates are generally available with dual metering (or whatever it is called).

Back to the future . . . one small step at a time . . .

Peter

PS -- The lack of air pollution would be a big Plus in the urban areas where these new trucks operate.

Originally Posted by PKI

Solar seems to show up at the homes of electric car owners. Someone may well figure out how to store that pesky energy until the car comes home for the nightly recharge.

The resident Leaf in our neighborhood gets it's charge between local trips. So, some folks have it worked out.

And if the old folks charge while the working folks refresh the grid, maybe the wires will not hum to destruction.

Best would be if the road got trenched for new grid. Maybe we'd get more bandwidth for the internet, TV, the neighborhood self driving car recharge station and the local grid storage battery. Pat

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

The grid in most places is 80 years old. Time for an upgrade anyway.

[Isuzusweet]

Has anybody checked out the new 2018 Nissan Leaf. Looks pretty nice, one pedal operation (like a golf cart?) And decent range.

[Meeks]

My wife has a first generation Nissan Leaf from early 2011 and loves it. Can't go far (realistic range of 70 miles for her type of driving) but amazing that in all of those years, and 44,000+ miles, she never went to a gas station. Got tires once, a new starting battery, windshield wipers, and windshield wiper fluid. Other than electricity which she plugs into at home and a few longer trip charges on the road that's been it. Astounding.

She is waiting for the longer range 2nd generation Nissan Leaf due out very end of this year or early next year with a projected range of 225ish miles per charge (vs 150 miles per charge for the Leaf that will be available in the next month or so).

The pickups will be coming. Just, as we know, a question of when.

[Isuzusweet]

Originally Posted by Meeks

My wife has a first generation Nissan Leaf from early 2011 and loves it. Can't go far (realistic range of 70 miles for her type of driving) but amazing that in all of those years, and 44,000+ miles, she never went to a gas station. Got tires once, a new starting battery, windshield wipers, and windshield wiper fluid. Other than electricity which she plugs into at home and a few longer trip charges on the road that's been it. Astounding.

She is waiting for the longer range 2nd generation Nissan Leaf due out very end of this year or early next year with a projected range of 225ish miles per charge (vs 150 miles per charge for the Leaf that will be available in the next month or so).

The pickups will be coming. Just, as we know, a question of when.

Awesome to hear of someone with a positive experience with an electric vehicle.

As for an electric pick up......I'm not curious as to when.......but who's going to be first out of the gate; (other than Workhorse)? Honda, Nissan, maybe VW?

[Roadtech]

I received the following excerpt of an article from a friend. I don't know if any of this is correct, but I would love to hear comments from our more knowledgeable participants on this topic.

"IF ELECTRIC CARS DO NOT USE GASOLINE, THEY WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN PAYING A GASOLINE TAX ON EVERY GALLON THAT IS SOLD FOR AUTOMOBILES, WHICH WAS ENACTED SOME YEARS AGO TO HELP TO MAINTAIN OUR ROADS AND BRIDGES. THEY WILL USE THE ROADS, BUT WILL NOT PAY FOR THEIR MAINTENANCE.

If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, you have to face certain realities. For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla, each. For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded. This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So, we will have to renovate our entire delivery system!"

[ohmman]

Originally Posted by Roadtech

I received the following excerpt of an article from a friend. I don't know if any of this is correct, but I would love to hear comments from our more knowledgeable participants on this topic.

"IF ELECTRIC CARS DO NOT USE GASOLINE, THEY WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN PAYING A GASOLINE TAX ON EVERY GALLON THAT IS SOLD FOR AUTOMOBILES, WHICH WAS ENACTED SOME YEARS AGO TO HELP TO MAINTAIN OUR ROADS AND BRIDGES. THEY WILL USE THE ROADS, BUT WILL NOT PAY FOR THEIR MAINTENANCE.

If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, you have to face certain realities. For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla, each. For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded. This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So, we will have to renovate our entire delivery system!"

This appears to be a comment to an article, perhaps, but certainly not an excerpt from an actual piece of journalism. Definitely FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt).

Currently, some states have implemented EV registration fees to help make up for the gas taxes. I participated in a California Road Charge Pilot program that is intended to move all vehicles away from a gas tax and over to a mile-traveled tax. The problem with the gas tax is that it hasn't been adjusted in years due to the political bad will that causes. However, cars continue to improve in fuel efficiency, so nobody is really paying their way. I think a per mile charge either at registration or by billing would be preferable. The pilot went well and we'll see where next steps are.

Adding to the tax issue would be the fact that having no localized emissions on electric vehicles decreases health care costs that are borne by society in the form of higher premiums and in government health programs like Medicaid and Medicare. So in that case, gas vehicles are getting a free ride.

On the topic of car chargers, a Tesla charger doesn't require 75A service. In fact, I don't think there's a 75A setting in the DIP switch. It uses anywhere from 40A to 100A breaker depending on what the owner wants. Most Tesla owners don't have a Tesla charger, though. They use the UMC that comes with the car and plug into a NEMA 14-50. This inexpensive 50A outlet provides 40A to the car, which is more than enough to charge overnight. Many owners use 20 or 30A chargers as well.

Tesla is also building out "urban Superchargers" which are intended for owners in dense housing developments, condos, apartments, etc. This is to enable ownership for people who cannot install a charger at home.

I don't know where the commenter lives, but where I live electrical service is at a minimum 120A service. Most standard homes built in the last 20 years have 200A service, and I have 400A service at my house. My entire street has 200A or 400A service, and we're a bunch of old, smaller homes. There is not a capacity issue at this time, though I do think incremental upgrades will be required as EV adoption increases.

Additionally, it has been the case in California for a few years that the code requires EV charging capacity in all new construction. Solar ready as well. So any home that's been built recently, as well as all homes being built in the future will be capable of handling the EV charging load.

Hope that helps.

[Roadtech]

Thanks ohmman. Interesting. I just hope if the gov't requires mileage tracking devices installed on our vehicles in order to calculate the tax owed, they don't track more than just miles driven...

[ohmman]

Originally Posted by Roadtech

Thanks ohmman. Interesting. I just hope if the gov't requires mileage tracking devices installed on our vehicles in order to calculate the tax owed, they don't track more than just miles driven...

That’s definitely a reasonable and I think widespread concern. The pilot offered three options: GPS device in the car on the OBD port (would omit out of state mileage), non GPS device on the OBD port (includes all mileage), or self-reporting (which would be replaced by registration inspection eventually). I chose the GPS device and it had all of the metrics one might worry about - top speed, driving maps per trip, etc. We’ll see how and if it gets going.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by Roadtech

Thanks ohmman. Interesting. I just hope if the gov't requires mileage tracking devices installed on our vehicles in order to calculate the tax owed, they don't track more than just miles driven...

I don’t care if they do track more than miles. Might cut down on some of the insanity on the roads.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by Roadtech

I received the following excerpt of an article from a friend. I don't know if any of this is correct, but I would love to hear comments from our more knowledgeable participants on this topic.

"IF ELECTRIC CARS DO NOT USE GASOLINE, THEY WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN PAYING A GASOLINE TAX ON EVERY GALLON THAT IS SOLD FOR AUTOMOBILES, WHICH WAS ENACTED SOME YEARS AGO TO HELP TO MAINTAIN OUR ROADS AND BRIDGES. THEY WILL USE THE ROADS, BUT WILL NOT PAY FOR THEIR MAINTENANCE.

If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, you have to face certain realities. For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla, each. For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded. This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So, we will have to renovate our entire delivery system!"

The electric infrastructure needs updating anyway. Most place have at least 200 amp service already.

[Meeks]

Ohmman, thank you for your informative response. It's a brave new world out there and we are all along for the ride . I for one am enjoying it!

[Isuzusweet]

Originally Posted by Roadtech

Thanks ohmman. Interesting. I just hope if the gov't requires mileage tracking devices installed on our vehicles in order to calculate the tax owed, they don't track more than just miles driven...

I don't think they need to go as big brother as a mileage tracking device, but maybe at yearly registration, the agent would come out to the vehicle, take the mileage and ascertain what payment would be required based on the difference from last recorded mileage.

Cheers
Sidekick Tony

[Roadtech]

Originally Posted by Isuzusweet

I don't think they need to go as big brother as a mileage tracking device, but maybe at yearly registration, the agent would come out to the vehicle, take the mileage and ascertain what payment would be required based on the difference from last recorded mileage.

Cheers
Sidekick Tony

You don't think there would be in cheating, do you?

[markdoane]

I used to spin odometers after school. Can't do that anymore. Too complicated.

[jcl]

Not sure of the origin of the ALL CAPS quote on fuel tax, but the longer version of it making the rounds on all sorts of sites refers to BC Hydro. That is our provincial electrical utility company here in British Columbia.

It may be a coincidence, but a region in BC (Metro Vancouver, the Lower Mainland region) is currently evaluating alternatives to the fuel tax for all the reasons listed above. We have another issue, which is that some local residents travel across the US border every few days to buy cheaper fuel, and bring it back across the line with no BC fuel taxes.

The alternatives on the short list here include overhead scanners (commonly used on toll roads) which would create a cordon like several other major cities have implemented, and distance charges, whether through GPS, odometer reading, or plug in device. Personally I think the tracker makes the most sense since this would be a regional charge, and if it was on odometer reading, for example, I would pay distance charges on the whole trip even if only a small part of the trip was in the congestion pricing zone. We drove across Canada last year. 11,000 km. 100 of it was in the zone where distance charges would apply, but where we live and register our vehicle.

When someone expresses worry about someone else tracking their location, I just ask them if they use a smart phone.

[Isuzusweet]

Originally Posted by markdoane

I used to spin odometers after school. Can't do that anymore. Too complicated.

Actually, not true. Yes, with the advent of computer odometers, it was to curtail odometer roll back; BUT with a laptop, some easily downloaded software off the internet, plug your laptop into your OBDII plug under the dash and a few key clicks later you have taken off thousands of miles. No more climbing under the car to plug a drill into the speedometer cable, jack the car up and put it into reverse, or take the whole dash apart.

It's a whole lot easier now, and in the province of Quebec, done to pretty well every car traded in; just before they send them to unsuspecting buyers in Ontario.

Cheers
Sidekick Tony

[azeeb]

Originally Posted by ohmman

I don't know where the commenter lives, but where I live electrical service is at a minimum 120A service. Most standard homes built in the last 20 years have 200A service, and I have 400A service at my house. My entire street has 200A or 400A service, and we're a bunch of old, smaller homes. There is not a capacity issue at this time, though I do think incremental upgrades will be required as EV adoption increases.

It doesn't matter what size service is inside each house. The grid doesn't have the capacity to supply a maximum amount of power to every house in a neighborhood at the same time.

The average home in the U.S. uses about 900 kWh per month.

Let's assume an average family has two electric vehicles that get driven 12k miles annually each. Electric sedans are getting around 0.35 kWh per mile. Charging 2 vehicles that drive 1000 miles per month each will require another 700 kWh per month.

That is close to doubling the current average usage of 900 kWh per month per household. 900 kWh goes to 1600 kWh per month. It's going to take some pretty extreme upgrades to the power grid if every household is going to double their electricity consumption. Many areas of the country already struggle handling the load in hot weather when everyone is running the A/C.

[Roadtech]

Originally Posted by azeeb

It doesn't matter what size service is inside each house. The grid doesn't have the capacity to supply a maximum amount of power to every house in a neighborhood at the same time.

The average home in the U.S. uses about 900 kWh per month.

Let's assume an average family has two electric vehicles that get driven 12k miles annually each. Electric sedans are getting around 0.35 kWh per mile. Charging 2 vehicles that drive 1000 miles per month each will require another 700 kWh per month.

That is close to doubling the current average usage of 900 kWh per month per household. 900 kWh goes to 1600 kWh per month. It's going to take some pretty extreme upgrades to the power grid if every household is going to double their electricity consumption. Many areas of the country already struggle handling the load in hot weather when everyone is running the A/C.

Many areas of the country are served by pump storage power plants. These use low demand during the night to use the power to pump water up stream into a lake above a hydroelectric dam. So, at the high peak times during the day, the stored water can drive the turbines. If everyone has their electric car plugged in overnight, there wouldn't be a low demand period for this system.