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Old 08-27-2017, 05:46 PM   #301
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To be fair.......
Nice Califoniaeese
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Old 08-27-2017, 07:59 PM   #302
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Sure. So the type of subsidy you detail is a leading subsidy - one that's given on the front end (for the most part) of the transaction. These might be considered back-end subsidies.

To get the idea, imagine BCD Amalgamated, which legally dumps waste material in a nearby river. This is material that would normally cost a lot of money to process to safety, because it's poisonous. BCD does this for years to the detriment of hundreds of thousands of people and the environment. Once this dumping becomes illegal, BCD has to change the business model or go out of business, and our taxes pay for the cleanup and healthcare of individuals.

That is also a type of subsidy, we're just paying for it after the company made their money instead of beforehand. I agree that it's not what we normally think of when we think of subsidies, but I would argue it's just as important.

To be fair, I don't necessarily subscribe to the final values given by the authors, but I don't fault their methodology. If you don't like that these costs don't fit into the traditional leading subsidy definition, I welcome some other term but I haven't seen a great one yet. "Costs associated with externalities" is bandied about..
There is no way you can count something as a "subsidy" if it is based on an unproven theory that is currently being hotly debated among scientists. You have now devolved this discussion into the realm of absurdity. A subsidy is dollars paid as of today in real time, not some "possibility" that may or may not ever be realized...
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Old 08-27-2017, 08:04 PM   #303
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There is no way you can count something as a "subsidy" if it is based on an unproven theory that is currently being hotly debated among scientists. You have now devolved this discussion into the realm of absurdity. A subsidy is dollars paid as of today in real time, not some "possibility" that may or may not ever be realized...
I'm open to hearing your issues with the methodology - that's a reasonable way to debate and discuss. Attacking me isn't, and it doesn't get us anywhere.

What is your specific issue with their cost attribution?
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Old 08-27-2017, 08:27 PM   #304
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There is no way you can count something as a "subsidy" if it is based on an unproven theory that is currently being hotly debated among scientists..
That isn't a comment on the science, which actually isn't being hotly debated among scientists, but rather seems more of a political viewpoint. Politics are not a good subject for discussion here as I understand the forum rules.
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Old 08-27-2017, 08:36 PM   #305
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I'm open to hearing your issues with the methodology - that's a reasonable way to debate and discuss. Attacking me isn't, and it doesn't get us anywhere.

What is your specific issue with their cost attribution?
Ok, I got carried away with the highlighted comment, but I think I made my point perfectly clear, you can't deal in speculative theories that may or may not ever be proven. I could counter and one up your "subsidies", with a host of my own invented "subsidies" supporting the other side. You can only deal in known realities, what may or may not happen in the future is just that... the future unknown...
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Old 08-27-2017, 08:41 PM   #306
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That isn't a comment on the science, which actually isn't being hotly debated among scientists, but rather seems more of a political viewpoint. Politics are not a good subject for discussion here as I understand the forum rules.
It has nothing to do with politics. There are many scientists questioning this theory. If you do any amount of research on the subject you will be enlightened. Don't just listen to the media, do your own research...
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Old 08-27-2017, 09:03 PM   #307
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It has nothing to do with politics. There are many scientists questioning this theory. If you do any amount of research on the subject you will be enlightened. Don't just listen to the media, do your own research...
Thanks, I have done and continue to do research. Maybe you are speaking of a new theory. The amount of evidence, and consilience of that evidence, supporting climate change consensus suggests that the scientists 'questioning' the theory are doing so more because of their political views on the future costs and approaches to mitigation and adaptation. That is certainly their right. But that doesn't change the science.
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Old 08-27-2017, 09:19 PM   #308
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Ok, I got carried away with the highlighted comment, but I think I made my point perfectly clear, you can't deal in speculative theories that may or may not ever be proven. I could counter and one up your "subsidies", with a host of my own invented "subsidies" supporting the other side. You can only deal in known realities, what may or may not happen in the future is just that... the future unknown...
Thanks for that.

I strongly disagree with your assessment that predictive science is neither important nor accurate. Predicting weather events like the massive storm hitting Texas as we speak is paramount to saving lives. All business is, by its nature, predictive. Predictive analytics in healthcare are what cure diseases, what prevents cancers, etc. This is science as we know it. Throwing our hands up at the future is a form of surrender that I don't think syncs with the human spirit.

I suggest that in your climate research, you focus on climate scientists, not meteorologists, anthropologists, sociologists, businessmen who founded weather networks, etc. The debate isn't as hot as you might think. The planet, on the other hand..
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Old 08-28-2017, 05:10 AM   #309
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It has nothing to do with politics. There are many scientists questioning this theory. If you do any amount of research on the subject you will be enlightened. Don't just listen to the media, do your own research...
It has everything to do with politics, and that's too bad. I won't live to see the climate change if it does. I just hate buying gasoline. I hate dispensing it, making sure it stays fresh in my small engines, generators, etc. I would like to drive a car that doesn't need it. I don't think tow vehicles will be electric anytime soon but that's a very small percentage of vehicles on the road.
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Old 08-28-2017, 07:52 AM   #310
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I strongly disagree with your assessment that predictive science is neither important nor accurate.

I suggest that in your climate research, you focus on climate scientists, not meteorologists, anthropologists, sociologists, businessmen who founded weather networks, etc.
I never said that I think "predictive science is neither important nor accurate". Now you have thrown up a red herring. My point (which I repeat once again), only concerns what should be considered as a "subsidy" and what should not, nothing more or less.

As to who should you focus on for "climate" research, I agree that you should focus on scientists only and there are many who are researching this issue with an unbiased scientific mind and do not agree that the science is settled. I try to stay away from the "climate" scientists who manipulate data, refuse to consider satellite based temperature data, and receive the majority of their income from government grants or grants from agenda based entities.

I could start listing links, names, research, etc., but this thread has veered off of its intended topic into global warming and that subject should be left to a separate thread. But when you brought up the oil and gas subsidies to include subjective and theoretical values, I couldn't let that stand without comment...
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Old 08-28-2017, 08:29 AM   #311
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So after our little hijack there; back to business.......1000 km range on a single charge anyone?

https://www.livescience.com/59052-ne...ars-range.html

now marry that technology with this....

http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/...new-technology

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Old 08-30-2017, 07:10 AM   #312
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Cummins unveils an electric big rig weeks before Tesla.
https://www.engadget.com/amp/2017/08...ic-semi-truck/

https://www.thestreet.com/story/1428...ing-tesla.html


https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmu...y-electricity/
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Old 08-30-2017, 06:57 PM   #313
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Tesla showroom in AS. Yes , they towed it there with the model X.

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Old 08-30-2017, 07:12 PM   #314
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FYI another shot of the same rig.

Cheers,

Peter




[click on arrow in quote to go to another Tesla X thread and see the photo in context.]
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FYI we looked at a Tesla X SUV today, towing their new AS demo trailer which is making the rounds all over the US. The recent thread here about an accident near a Tesla demo trailer in Detroit led us to research the new vehicle and the AS combo.
. . .
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Old 08-31-2017, 06:38 AM   #315
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http://www.investors.com/politics/ed...to-fail-again/
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Old 08-31-2017, 07:19 AM   #316
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Really??? Hydrogen??? Roadways crawling with little Hindenburgs and 18 wheeler hydrogen bombs? That's what people fear when you talk hydrogen; not running out of range, but blowing up!

BMW staked its future on hydrogen 20 years, coming out with a number of fuel cell prototypes; where are they now? Now BMW has the i8/hybrid and all electric i3.

Hydrogen could have been, whould have been, maybe even should have been but is still the exotic wall flower at the dance that a few want to dance with but know she won't put out.

You have a vehicle with the technology that I wrote in my previous post, of 1000 kms range and a recharge time of 5 minutes or less, and it'll be "hydrogen who?"

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Old 08-31-2017, 07:40 AM   #317
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I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that if Cummins, a true leader in tow capable engines, is dumpin all this money and time into an electric big rig that can pull 44,000 lbs for 100-300 miles, the idea of an electric tv might be a lil more realistic than y'all think.
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Old 08-31-2017, 08:23 AM   #318
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Really??? Hydrogen??? Roadways crawling with little Hindenburgs and 18 wheeler hydrogen bombs? That's what people fear when you talk hydrogen; not running out of range, but blowing up!
https://www.computerworld.com/articl...ndenburgs.html

http://www.chfca.ca/education-centre/hydrogen-safety/
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Old 08-31-2017, 09:32 AM   #319
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The problems with hydrogen aren't the dangers of the vehicles. It's the creation and distribution of the fuel that introduce major hurdles.

Creation:

Currently almost exclusively steam reforming. This takes massive amounts of fossil fuels to create a "clean" fuel. If this is the production method, the main benefit is reducing the distributed emissions from vehicles. It does little to curtail use of fossil fuels or greenhouse gas emissions, though.

Electrolysis, the potential "clean" method of creating hydrogen, is terribly inefficient. It costs 4-10x as much as steam reforming, but has the promise of using wind and solar for generation. But why use wind and solar to create a fuel when it can just be stored and used directly by a BEV?

Distribution:

This 2006 paper from the Proceedings of the IEEE outlines the difficulties with distribution. What's interesting is that nothing has changed since it was written. Our distribution options are still the same. Currently we have some industrial pipelines, but most distribution to hydrogen fuel stations is by pressurized tanker. This is an extremely inefficient method of delivery since hydrogen is less energy dense than fossil fuels.

If electrolysis becomes a more efficient process through study and advancement, I think hydrogen has a future as a grid storage fuel. I don't see it being a good transportation alternative to BEVs for most people, though. I can fuel my cars off of my rooftop or any other source of electricity. There are some losses, but the generation to wheels efficiency is far greater than anything hydrogen is promising.

Hydrogen makes sense for an economy that benefits from the centralization and control over the sale of fuel. BEVs allow an owner to separate from that single fuel source and choose from a variety of providers and sources. I like my nuclear powered cars, personally. Fueled by that fusion reactor in the sky.
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Old 08-31-2017, 10:26 AM   #320
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I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that if Cummins, a true leader in tow capable engines, is dumpin all this money and time into an electric big rig that can pull 44,000 lbs for 100-300 miles, the idea of an electric tv might be a lil more realistic than y'all think.
Exactly.

And it isn't just Cummins. A major competitor of Cummins is Caterpillar, with a long history of diesel and natural gas power systems. Cat has released their MicroGrid solar power system components (PV panels, energy storage, controllers). The D7 tractor is available in diesel electric hybrid. A tracked excavator is using diesel hydraulic hybrid technology. Large mechanical drive off road haul trucks, which Cat has been famous for, have been joined by hybrid electric drive models.

These sorts of strategic changes are everywhere. It's coming.
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