We dumped our diesel for a gasser.

[RBolton]

Originally Posted by TIMEMACHINE

Yep, you are right, you sound like you may be in the truck/car business.

I am, and because of that, I have had the opportunity to tow my trailer with several different tow vehicles - long, short, gas, diesel, manual, automatic, half, three quarter and one ton. The experience makes it easy to see why there is no one "best" set up.

It doesn’t take a one ton dually diesel to handle my 26-foot Argosy, but I have done that, and it was obvious that it was overkill. I have also towed it with a half ton 4WD regular cab short bed pick up with a small V-8 (4.7) and the only immediately obvious short coming was that the truck was underpowered. The ideal truck for my camper falls somewhere in between.

The most comfortable (to me) feeling truck that I have towed this trailer with was a Dodge Ram 1500 Quad Cab short bed 4wd HEMI automatic with 3:55 ratio. If I actually had to purchase a truck, this would be what I would pick. It fits my life style when not towing, which is most of the time and regardless of what is rumored they get respectable fuel mileage. If my trailer was heavier, if I towed more often, if it was important that I was first to the top of the mountain - I might be attracted to a different rig. If fuel mileage, maintenance costs, purchase price, and the size of my driveway were factored in, maybe I’d settle for something less.

I help people pick the vehicle that best suits their needs all the time. It becomes easy to see how even if two people are towing identical trailers down the same road toward a common destination - they do not necessarily need or want the same tow vehicle. Different strokes for different folks.

My manufacturer provides us with a job-rating work sheet to help select the proper truck for a specific application. Oddly there is no line on the worksheet that addresses the customer’s personality or attitude. I have learned that matching the truck to the task does not necessarily match the truck to the customer. It’s important to try to do both if they are going to be happy with their truck.

[Andrew T]

Hi TM

I totally agree that there are no perfect tow vehicles and that everyone is going to have their own reasons for the vehicle they choose based on their own use and lifestyle.

The advantage of a solid axle suspension is that it is less expensive and simpler to service. For towing an independent rear suspension offers substantially more control while riding smoother at the same time. Most trucks with straight axles run on a conventional truck frame and the rear suspension stance is 38" wide. So even though the track may be 64" wide the rear suspension which does the most to control the trailer is pivoting on a 38" centre. Independent suspension projects the suspension stance out to the width of the track. When you widen the suspension stance from 38 to over 60" you create a tremendous amount of additonal stability.

As well a live axle suspension will have some side to side movement under the vehicle. Beyond that a Live axle suspension tends to be softer to compensate for the unsprung weight of the axle. With independent you can have a stiffer suspension with a smoother ride.

I have used vehicles with 4 wheel independent suspension for the last 20 years easily a couple of hundred thousand miles of towing. As well hundreds of our customers have towed many times that distance. The combination of ride and control really does spoil you.

You mentioned that the tow rating of the X5 makes it against the law to tow with it. However there is no legal reference to tow ratings in any juristiction that I am aware of. Some vehicles with very high tow ratings are quite poor as tow vehicles and others with low ratings are very capable. The other weakness of tow ratings espessially when related to towing Airstreams is that they are based solely on weight and do not take into account aerodynamic drag, balance and centre of gravity which are more important than weight alone.

Andy

[TIMEMACHINE]

Andy,

Great info and thanks for the corrections, somebody has to keep me in line. I especially like the detail of rigid axle vs IRS, good work. I guess I may have overstated that towing with the X5 would not be legal, what I should have said is that the GCWR or GCVWR would be exceeded if one towed a 7000 lb AS with an X5, since the combined weight was greater than 10,850 lbs, per the manufacturers data. Although that may not be a legal issue in terms of vehicle code law, it would be an issue with ones insurance company in the event of an accident, and if anyone was hurt, there is a significant liabilty issue. That is what I should have said, my bad.

time

[Road Ruler]

Originally Posted by TIMEMACHINE

Andy,

I especially like the detail of rigid axle vs IRS, good work.

time

Yes, there are a number of accounts that talk about the positive attributes of vehicles with 4 wheel IS and towing.

Back to the diesel issue for a moment... It is interesting how the technology has brought the diesel engines along. It is hard to believe that an Audi with a twin turbo V12 has been dominating the famed, Le Mans 24hr race the last few years. Even race officials are contemplating ways to slow this car down to even the field.

Green Car Congress: Audi R10 TDI Diesel Wins Le Mans

[TIMEMACHINE]

Originally Posted by RBolton

The most comfortable (to me) feeling truck that I have towed this trailer with was a Dodge Ram 1500 Quad Cab short bed 4wd HEMI automatic with 3:55 ratio. If I actually had to purchase a truck, this would be what I would pick.

I help people pick the vehicle that best suits their needs all the time. It becomes easy to see how even if two people are towing identical trailers down the same road toward a common destination - they do not necessarily need or want the same tow vehicle. Different strokes for different folks.

My manufacturer provides us with a job-rating work sheet to help select the proper truck for a specific application. Oddly there is no line on the worksheet that addresses the customer’s personality or attitude. I have learned that matching the truck to the task does not necessarily match the truck to the customer. It’s important to try to do both if they are going to be happy with their truck.

Interesting selection for your favorite TV. And I really like your comment on the worksheet and no line for customer's personality or attitude. I couldn't imagine what you would put on that line for me!

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Originally Posted by Road Ruler

Yes, there are a number of accounts that talk about the positive attributes of vehicles with 4 wheel IS and towing.

Back to the diesel issue for a moment... It is interesting how the technology has brought the diesel engines along. It is hard to believe that an Audi with a twin turbo V12 has been dominating the famed, Le Mans 24hr race the last few years. Even race officials are contemplating ways to slow this car down to even the field.

Green Car Congress: Audi R10 TDI Diesel Wins Le Mans

Hi, if they want to even the playing field, let them all have the same size engines. I don't remember the exact specs, but I think the gassers have a limit of 3.5 L and the Diesels get 5.0 L engines. Or something like that.

[RBolton]

Originally Posted by Road Ruler

Back to the diesel issue for a moment... It is interesting how the technology has brought the diesel engines along. It is hard to believe that an Audi with a twin turbo V12 has been dominating the famed, Le Mans 24hr race the last few years. Even race officials are contemplating ways to slow this car down to even the field.

I don't think it was the speed of this Audi that separated it from the field at LeMans as much as it was fuel mileage. They would come closer to leveling the field by allowing the gassers to carry more fuel. Then, if weight becomes an issue they could make the Audi pull a camper - it is a diesel.

[alvinator]

We have had 3 Dodge dieseis starting with a 1994 that had a whopping 175 HP and about 420 torque. The last one was a Cummins 600 torquer. We now pull with a V-10/4.10 E-350 Ford Chateau Passenger van. The torque on the V-10 is about the same as the 94 Dodge.

Both the 1994 and V-10 engines pulled us up and down the Rocky mountains with no strain, We averaged about 12 mpg with the 94 and 9 mpg with the Ford gasser. The Cummins 600 was overkill with mileage in the 10 mpg range towing.

Since my 1994, the Auto industry has been in a race to build the biggest and baddest diesel on the planet along with a huge drop in fuel economy.

At this stage, diesels and their huge price tags make no economic or power sense; were we to buy another vehicle, it would be a Ford F250 with a V-10/4.10 combo; alas, this combo is no longer available in the E-350 unless you spring for a conversion van.

As far as current diesels go, the industry would be wise to offer a reduced HP model with good fuel economy. One will still enjoy plenty of power.

Just our 2 cents.

[RBolton]

Originally Posted by alvinator

As far as current diesels go, the industry would be wise to offer a reduced HP model with good fuel economy. One will still enjoy plenty of power.

I could not agree more. But, these manufacturers don't have their heads in the sand as so many seem to think. It's the Tim Allen syndrome, "More Power." The diesel buyers union demands it. The diesel power war is not raging because the manufacturers like 'em, but because that is what sells. I have seen guys that would cut back to one meal a day just to have a truck that could out pull the one next door. Fuel economy be damned.The Dodge Cummins combo in '89 had even less power than your '94 and could still pull a house off it's foundation. Mid 20's fuel economy was not uncommon.

[TIMEMACHINE]

Originally Posted by alvinator

We have had 3 Dodge dieseis starting with a 1994 that had a whopping 175 HP and about 420 torque. The last one was a Cummins 600 torquer. We now pull with a V-10/4.10 E-350 Ford Chateau Passenger van. The torque on the V-10 is about the same as the 94 Dodge.

Both the 1994 and V-10 engines pulled us up and down the Rocky mountains with no strain, We averaged about 12 mpg with the 94 and 9 mpg with the Ford gasser. The Cummins 600 was overkill with mileage in the 10 mpg range towing.

Since my 1994, the Auto industry has been in a race to build the biggest and baddest diesel on the planet along with a huge drop in fuel economy.

At this stage, diesels and their huge price tags make no economic or power sense; were we to buy another vehicle, it would be a Ford F250 with a V-10/4.10 combo; alas, this combo is no longer available in the E-350 unless you spring for a conversion van.

As far as current diesels go, the industry would be wise to offer a reduced HP model with good fuel economy. One will still enjoy plenty of power.

Just our 2 cents.

Interesting experience and conclusion....

Another detail we have not touched on is emissions and the environment...on an average, which fuel motor is better on the environment, the current diesels or the current gassers?

And who has the cleanest diesel and who has the cleanest gasser. In my questions I am ruling out any motor that isn't put in a vehicle capable of towing at least 7500 lbs.

I am not a tree hugger but one of our other cars is a Prius.

[azflycaster]

Originally Posted by TIMEMACHINE

Another detail we have not touched on is emissions and the environment...on an average, which fuel motor is better on the environment, the current diesels or the current gassers?

It depends.
Each fuel / engine has pluses and minuses.

Diesels on average get about 33% better MPG then gas. However Diesel takes 25% more oil to make then gas. This still gives diesel an 8% advantage.

CO2 emissions are lower for diesel vs gas.

Diesels take a big hit in the particulates they produce. The numbers used to be off the scale, but currently they are about 10x as much as gas. Resent laws are aiming to get them much lower then that.

There is no simple answer.

[safari 28]

Originally Posted by TIMEMACHINE

Interesting experience and conclusion....

Another detail we have not touched on is emissions and the environment...on an average, which fuel motor is better on the environment, the current diesels or the current gassers?

And who has the cleanest diesel and who has the cleanest gasser. In my questions I am ruling out any motor that isn't put in a vehicle capable of towing at least 7500 lbs.

I am not a tree hugger but one of our other cars is a Prius.

Interesting thought. This truck is oue first e85 vehicle and it appears this is a cleaner burning fuel from the marketing hype. Anyone have any updates if e85 is better/worse for the enviornment?

[SmokelessJoe]

Originally Posted by alvinator

As far as current diesels go, the industry would be wise to offer a reduced HP model with good fuel economy. One will still enjoy plenty of power.

The SPRINTER, the original model imported from Germany, has a turbo -charged 5 cylinder inline which produces 154 hp and 243 lb-ft of torque.

I haven't used mine to tow yet but reports on MPG range from 17 to 22.

Sergei

[RBolton]

Originally Posted by safari 28

Interesting thought. This truck is oue first e85 vehicle and it appears this is a cleaner burning fuel from the marketing hype. Anyone have any updates if e85 is better/worse for the enviornment?

E85 is 85 percent ethanol. It burns cleaner than fossil fuels and is derived from a renewable resource, usually corn or sugar cane and it's use lessens our dependency on foreign oil. So, you can feel good about using it - but, it's not that readily available in a lot of the country, It is not compatable with fuel systems that were not designed or that have not been modified to handle it and there is no fuel economy advantage.

Much like bio-diesel, I think that currently E85's major role is to help make people aware that there are alternatives to gas and diesel fuels that are derived from foriegn oil. Using it is the green thing to do.

Roger

[cosmotini]

Isn't there some controversy about it taking more energy (btu's) to produce a gallon of ethanol than what a gallon of ethanol has?

[CanoeStream]

Denny, that's a tough question to answer. Fieldwork, refining & transport to market supposedly don't exceed the energy delivered to the pump. Due to tax issues and not demand there have been a huge number of plants built here and in Iowa. They're talking about some being idled. It still comes down to the fact that all the corn in the U.S. wouldn't displace ... 5%? 10%? of gasoline use. Current demand is heavily subsidized but that is declining.

Friends in the corners of the country don't know anything about E85. States with 10 or more gas stations with E85 - CO 22, IL 146, IN 86, IA 65, KS 18, MI 44 , MN 308, MO 72, NE 31, NC 12, ND 23, OH 39, SD 61, TX 31, WI 63.

Susie has used a V.A. car in her job the last 2 years. They only can refuel with E85 -- that's part of the subsidy. There were only 2 stations at distant corners of our county 2 years ago. It's quite common now. I know there's a lot of soy biodiesel when I hit IL on the way to Moraine View.

[alvinator]

Originally Posted by TIMEMACHINE

Interesting experience and conclusion....

I am not a tree hugger but one of our other cars is a Prius.

What a coincidence, our main vehicle is also a Prius!

[Sky]

Originally Posted by safari 28

Interesting thought. This truck is oue first e85 vehicle and it appears this is a cleaner burning fuel from the marketing hype. Anyone have any updates if e85 is better/worse for the enviornment?

An issue of Scientific American discussed this about a year ago. If their data is correct, ethanol creates more pollution per mile then gas, if you look at the big picture and track the production process of each. Unfortunately, ethanol requires burning a lot of methane during its distillation process.

[razorback]

Originally Posted by alvinator

We have had 3 Dodge dieseis starting with a 1994 that had a whopping 175 HP and about 420 torque. The last one was a Cummins 600 torquer. We now pull with a V-10/4.10 E-350 Ford Chateau Passenger van. The torque on the V-10 is about the same as the 94 Dodge.

Both the 1994 and V-10 engines pulled us up and down the Rocky mountains with no strain, We averaged about 12 mpg with the 94 and 9 mpg with the Ford gasser. The Cummins 600 was overkill with mileage in the 10 mpg range towing.

Since my 1994, the Auto industry has been in a race to build the biggest and baddest diesel on the planet along with a huge drop in fuel economy.

At this stage, diesels and their huge price tags make no economic or power sense; were we to buy another vehicle, it would be a Ford F250 with a V-10/4.10 combo; alas, this combo is no longer available in the E-350 unless you spring for a conversion van.

As far as current diesels go, the industry would be wise to offer a reduced HP model with good fuel economy. One will still enjoy plenty of power.

Just our 2 cents.

That's what the Cummins B-Model 12V was until they went to the 24V in early to mid 1998. Sometimes bigger and badder is not necessarily better.

My 12V now has 128K, gets 14 MPG pulling and still runs like a new sewing machine. Only part to go bad has been the starter at 114K. I have no complaints on this rig and will probably keep it as long as it takes good care of me.

My $0.02 worth.

[Andrew T]

We have three customers now towing with Hylander and Lexus RX Hybrids. They go like stink when the gas and electric motors are combined. The electic motor only runs for about 60 seconds before it shuts down but that is usually enough to pass a slow car or get up to speed on an on ramp.

They are towing a 25' Safari, 16 CCD and a 28.5' Surveryor lite.

One other bonus do they ever recharge your batteries in a hurry when you are dry camping.

Andy