Volvo XC 70 3.2 wagon

[AlbertF]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

It is regulated from the standpoint of DOT inspections on commercial trucks over 10,000lbs GVWR. If you're over GCWR (per mfr. spec) on the scales, you're grounded and fined. (This 10,000lb level is new, used to be higher).
FMVSS only requires label to have tire pressures, and size, GVWR, GFAWR, GRAWR, and VIN.

For private vehicles, it's not until you have a wreck or other liability situation that you're exposed to problems.

Look, here's the bottom line.

1) Can anybody show us a statement from any DOT saying it is ok to exceed GVWR, GAWR, GCWR or max trailer weight?

2) Can anybody show us the same from ANY Mfr. as well as a statement that their warranty is valid for affected components if these specs are exceeded?

3) Can anybody show us the same from an attorney stating that there is no liability for operating a rig exceeding these specs?

Show me these things and I'll eat a whole pie of crow.

The regulation of GCVWR is news to me. This is a subject that has received a lot of attention on the "other" RV forum.

To my knowledge, only two jurisdictions actually regulate maximum trailer weight. California says (this is from memory) that you can't tow a trailer weighing more than 6,000 lbs with a car weighing less than 4,000 lbs. I don't believe the statute says anything about curb or gross weight of the tow vehicle. As I said previously, it's loosely worded. Saskatchewan says the the weight of the trailer may not exceed the GVWR of the tow vehicle. However, if it's a fifth wheel or you use a WDH, the trailer weight may be 2x the GVWR of the tow vehicle.

Regarding questions 1 to 3. I think if you do a little digging, you will get a reasonably clear answer to number 1. A number of law enforcement types seemed to weigh in on the other RV forum. I have had more than one police officer clearly state that there is no law in their jurisdiction prohibiting what I do (5700 to 6000 lb trailer behind a car with a 3250 lb curb weight).

Number 2 - warranty? Who knows? You won't know until you go to the dealer. However, there is no incentive or even a valid reason for the dealer to deny warranty unless the problem is clearly caused by overload.

Personally, the warranty issue doesn't concern me. In over half a million miles of driving, I've had a vehicle under warranty for less than 80,000. Meanwhile, I know that the money I save on gas relative to driving a truck every day would buy a lot of repair work if needed. (In fact, the only towing-related repair I've had was necessitated by a faulty turn signal converter supplied by Volvo.)

Number 3 - I don't know what an experienced lawyer would say about this. However, there's always liability with everything we do. Risk management is the key. I know from experience that my combination is a pleasure to drive and very stable. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be towing it the way that I do. I can't live in fear because of the remote probability that some opportunistic lawyer might someday target me so that his client can win the lawsuit lottery.

[AlbertF]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

the volvo in question has axles rated to 2800 lbs and 2600 lbs.

the volvo in question has a gCvwr of ~7500 lbs (less than the trailer solo)

the payload is 1200 lbs (less than the tongue and hitch combined without people)

and so on...

'towing capacity or rating is not a legal/official determination but axle rating and gCvwr are.

using the newly formulated SAE towing tests/standards, TOYOTA has RErated their trucks...

this has resulted in DErating by 400 to 1000 lbs on the newest t'dra.
_________
for those that don't get it, here is just ONE of the points...

these threads are simply advertisements.

they are basically viral postings/exchanges and do everything that viral media intends...

but without having to pay for the airwaves or air space.

sometime the o.p. isn't even aware that's it is viral...

till the 2 sides start REplie'n
_________

unfortunately a few totally naive folks may get sucked into the vortex and become customers.

that is after all the entire purpose behind viral media.

most see/realize the ridiculousness of some of these towing combinations...

even if welding makes them possible.
_________


but the single best thing everyone can do who has concerns about marginal or grossly inadequate rigging combos...

is to simply ignore the post/thread or rigging combo question.


cheers
2air'

2air,

Andy doesn't pay me a dime, and I paid full price for the stuff I bought at his store. (While pricing is fair, it's not a discount operation.) He has, however, willingly given of his time to provide advice by telephone and email without charging for it. In my view, what I am doing is correcting erroneous and unfounded assumptions about what constitutes a safe tow vehicle.

I agree that it is quite possible that regulations will change in the future as you seem to be predicting. This would be most regrettable because I would be forced to buy a tow vehicle that I don't want that is:

• far more expensive to purchase, maintain and operate;
• uses at least 2x more fuel on a day to day basis;
• is likely to have an uncomfortable ride;
• is a nuisance to park in urban situations;
• has inferior handling and braking;
• is less safe for both myself and other road users than a well-designed unibody car; and,
• for purposes of towing an Airstream with a moderate tongue weight, is not really going to be any more effective purely as a tow vehicle, and quite possibly less effective.

So who would gain? Who's advertising for whom?

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by AlbertF

The regulation of GCVWR is news to me. This is a subject that has received a lot of attention on the "other" RV forum.

To my knowledge, only two jurisdictions actually regulate maximum trailer weight. California says (this is from memory) that you can't tow a trailer weighing more than 6,000 lbs with a car weighing less than 4,000 lbs. I don't believe the statute says anything about curb or gross weight of the tow vehicle. As I said previously, it's loosely worded. Saskatchewan says the the weight of the trailer may not exceed the GVWR of the tow vehicle. However, if it's a fifth wheel or you use a WDH, the trailer weight may be 2x the GVWR of the tow vehicle.

Regarding questions 1 to 3. I think if you do a little digging, you will get a reasonably clear answer to number 1. A number of law enforcement types seemed to weigh in on the other RV forum. I have had more than one police officer clearly state that there is no law in their jurisdiction prohibiting what I do (5700 to 6000 lb trailer behind a car with a 3250 lb curb weight).

Number 2 - warranty? Who knows? You won't know until you go to the dealer. However, there is no incentive or even a valid reason for the dealer to deny warranty unless the problem is clearly caused by overload.

Personally, the warranty issue doesn't concern me. In over half a million miles of driving, I've had a vehicle under warranty for less than 80,000. Meanwhile, I know that the money I save on gas relative to driving a truck every day would buy a lot of repair work if needed. (In fact, the only towing-related repair I've had was necessitated by a faulty turn signal converter supplied by Volvo.)

Number 3 - I don't know what an experienced lawyer would say about this. However, there's always liability with everything we do. Risk management is the key. I know from experience that my combination is a pleasure to drive and very stable. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be towing it the way that I do. I can't live in fear because of the remote probability that some opportunistic lawyer might someday target me so that his client can win the lawsuit lottery.

You actually said it in your response #3. Risk management.
1) For a private (non-commercial vehicle), you most likely will not get "caught" unless there is an incident.
2) You won't get "caught" unless there is a mechanical failure. (Dealer does have the responsibility under his franchise agreement, to deny claims where abuse or neglect are in play, and have that "incentive" to make the call due to potential chargebacks by Mfr.)
3) Same answer as #1, and they will swarm around you if there is an incident.

IMO, this isn't risk management, this is risk ignorance (ignoring the risks), and anyone of us on the road could pay for this type of "management".

[SteveH]

The manufacturer of the vehicle (Volvo) says it can safely tow 3300 pounds, and the Airstream weighs 8000 loaded. Folks this is over 2.4 times the manufacturer stated maximum towing capacity. INSANITY.

This is the equivilent of using my 3/4 ton GMC Diesel powered truck, which is rated to tow 12,400 pounds by the manufacturer, and towing over 29,800 pounds of trailer down the highway. Now who in their right mind would say that would be safe?

Must be something in the water in Canada.

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by AlbertF

...In my view, what I am doing is correcting erroneous and unfounded assumptions about what constitutes a safe tow vehicle...

and imo (which is completely irrelevant) you do a great job at that ...

your postings on this topic, rigs, towing and so on are the MOST sensible/logical provided here.

with factual basis for many of the towing teaching points.

and i suspect you are a very patient, careful traveler who really is aware of the issues.
_______

you also reference "moderate" tongue weight, again sensible.

your stream appears 2b 35 years old, a narrow body and 1000s of lbs lighter than a new 28.

no doubt your set up catches a lot of looks, but when the parameters (and setup) are considered...

it isn't that far out of spec and no doubt better rigged and better driven.

and your modern tow vehicle is much better designed, built and equipped that the 70s mules once used.

but the op in this thread is looking at 1000-1300 lbs at the tongue, which is hardly moderate.

now consider they may add solar, more batteries and other bits.

and consider what appears to be ZERO rv'n experience.

perhaps they live close enough to canam 4 weekly tutelage and follow up...

but if they live at a distant u.s. location, real support changes.

like 100s of the other viral/triggering threads, which promote this biz, the details are sufficiently vague.

this isn't about minor tweaks in factory specs, it's about totally discounting all manufactures specs...

and not just from one manufacturer (vehicle, trailer, hitch, tire, wheel, even lug nuts) but all of them.

while volvos are well known for crash protection or more vaguely "safety",

that doesn't mean those carefully engineered and tested systems are designed for 2-4 times the published parameters...

or being tied to a 28 foot 7000 lb accessory.

earlier the shop owners sez...

"This car weighs 3900 pounds with a light aluminum engine and transmission that means that most of the weight goes into its structure"

this is beyond nonsense and an example of perverted thinking at the core of some of these mutant combos...

it is a clear example of true true and unrelated non-logic and reveals a defect in critical thinking.

a 'light engine' in no way translates/results into a 'heavy structure'...

much of the weight could be (and is) safety bits, creature comforts, vibration isolation, glass and so on...

and structural mass designed to protect the occupants (crush/impact zones/bags)...

doesn't translated into load carrying strength/stiffness/structure ...

unless the engineers intentionally addressed that parameter and there is NO evidence of that.

the gCvwr for the volvo in question is ~7300 lbs.

once one decides they can completely ignore all material specs as 'marketing department info'...

it is very liberating on a personal level, like deciding traffic signs are merely suggestions for other people.

but promoting that personal view to customers, selling it to the unsuspecting and poorly informed and so on...

is a dangerous practice.

and most of these truly ridiculous rigs taint any of the sincere efforts to improve towing combinations.
________

cheers
2air'

[dkottum]

I don't think its good to assume a man is a scam artist because you disagree with his work. But its a free country and you can say all the stupid things you want.

For my part CanAm's work is very interesting and useful to those who are not satisfied with a large pickup as a tow vehicle. I do know the handling characteristics of pickups are lousy. The stopping distances are not as good as most cars. If he can set them up so they handle better than a truck, and stop quicker, the assumed danger fades quickly.

I suspect this topic will reappear often and certainly hope it does.

Doug

[Road Ruler]

Originally Posted by dkottum

I don't think its good to assume a man is a scam artist because you disagree with his work. But its a free country and you can say all the stupid things you want.

For my part CanAm's work is very interesting and useful to those who are not satisfied with a large pickup as a tow vehicle. I do know the handling characteristics of pickups are lousy. The stopping distances are not as good as most cars. If he can set them up so they handle better than a truck, and stop quicker, the assumed danger fades quickly.

I suspect this topic will reappear often and certainly hope it does.

Doug

Well put Doug and I would agree.

Some of these long winded, "drama queen" posts remind me of the Orson Wells broadcast of "War of the Worlds". Fear mongering at its best from one who has a great imagination, but in the end........
"all fiction"

[dznf0g]

wow

WOW! Really? surely there's more going on here than sincere understanding og science and reality!

2air....HELP. Am i Just stupid and getting sucked into an alternative universe, or have all the rules of reality changed?

This is just Ridiculous?

[withidl]

The problem within this thread (and others on assembly combinations) is that some posters feel it’s necessary to get demeaning, personal and up in another’s face to make their point, wagging their finger in great disdain to justify clinging to their old ways. This serves absolutely no purpose other than the finger wagger’s perceived feeling of superiority.

Let’s offer facts, analysis and experiences. Let’s disagree, but do so without getting demeaning and personal.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by withidl

The problem within this thread (and others on assembly combinations) is that some posters feel it’s necessary to get demeaning, personal and up in another’s face to make their point, wagging their finger in great disdain to justify clinging to their old ways. This serves absolutely no purpose other than the finger wagger’s perceived feeling of superiority.

Let’s offer facts, analysis and experiences. Let’s disagree, but do so without getting demeaning and personal.

Hmmmmm...To whom do you speak? I haven't seen any demeaning, only very real concern for product durability, and safety. Please don't try and scare people off of a valid discussion for fear of being...politically correct ....perhaps...I'm not sure why you say this????????

[withidl]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Hmmmmm...To whom do you speak? I haven't seen any demeaning, only very real concern for product durability, and safety. Please don't try and scare people off of a valid discussion for fear of being...politically correct ....perhaps...I'm not sure why you say this????????

If the shoe fits.............

[Airslide]

Just go ahead and tow with the car.. its not logical but who cares at this point. This shouldnt get personal. When the car breaks down.. and it will.. your Volvo dealer will be here to get it back on the road for more abuse. Its what we do.

Time to unsubscibe...

Regards.. Vinnie

[Larry C]

Originally Posted by dryflyfisher

We are about to put a Hensley hitch system on this 2008 wagon to pull a 28' Airstream International. Anyone out there with experience with this as a tow vehicle? Issues to be prepared for? Thanks

For once I agree with Air 2! You could probably pull that 28 footer with a 4 wheelerATV,
And somebody on here would agree, but that still won't make it right or safe.
I own a Volvo V70, pretty much the same car but it wouldn't begin to safely tow a 28 foot anything!

[Road Ruler]

Originally Posted by Larry C

For once I agree with Air 2!

Hummm..... you may be his greatest fan

[MrBadExample]

Light car, heavy trailer, insufficiant braking ability, good luck with the lawsuit when you kill someones kid in a overweight related accident. I am a retired extended warranty inspector, if your car was in a shop with a launched tranny or other problems, the report would read something like "Hitch is very heavy, trans shows signs of abuse..." and you'll be buying a transmission or axles, or front end problems...poof, all of a sudden a bad idea.

[Larry C]

Originally Posted by Road Ruler

Hummm..... you may be his greatest fan

Not usually!