Volvo XC 70 3.2 wagon

[AlbertF]

Originally Posted by Airslide

Its even possible the Volvo may handle that unit surprisingly well in a controlled banking curve.

I used one of our demo's to go back and forth to a class a few months ago. This vehicle was an 09' XC70 with the engine we are talking about here. The fuel mileage while averaging freeway speeds worked out to be around 20 mpg. I wonder if the mileage would drop to around 12 towing this airstream? What then would be the point?

Regards.. Vinnie

Indeed, if the WDH is set up correctly the handling is surprisingly neutral, and it's a pleasure to tow on a winding road. (At lower speeds, e.g. up to about 50 mph, I will back off the handles on the friction sway control so that the steering unwinds more naturally.)

On a level highway, with no wind, at 65 mph I easily get 16 mpg (US gallons, not Imperial). In hills, or in windy conditions it drops to around 14. Of course, my car gets over 30 mpg at 75 mph solo.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by Andrew T

You'll notice there is no towing recomendation on this label or the label on any other vehicle that I have seen.

You're missing the point completely. GVWR, GAWRs, and cargo capacity changed (in this specific case) which has an effect on trailer weight limits to reach GCWR. I have never seen a MFR. approve of a change in GCWR by an upfitter.

Again, my point is any modification by an OEM approved final vehicle manufacturer must meet FMVSS (I realize you're in Canada, but I think you will find regs. very similar up yonder) and be recertified. This is about the CERTIFICATION process and not my individual label. I was just showing a final vehicle manufacturer certification and the absence of the OEM label for understanding and clarification

Individuals can do what they want, but if a MFR. doesn't approve of a mod for an approved upfitter, it is not suitable from an engineering or safety standpoint.

[AlbertF]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

You're missing the point completely. GVWR, GAWRs, and cargo capacity changed (in this specific case) which has an effect on trailer weight limits to reach GCWR. I have never seen a MFR. approve of a change in GCWR by an upfitter.

Again, my point is any modification by an OEM approved final vehicle manufacturer must meet FMVSS (I realize you're in Canada, but I think you will find regs. very similar up yonder) and be recertified. This is about the CERTIFICATION process and not my individual label. I was just showing a final vehicle manufacturer certification and the absence of the OEM label for understanding and clarification

Individuals can do what they want, but if a MFR. doesn't approve of a mod for an approved upfitter, it is not suitable from an engineering or safety standpoint.

We have "CMVSS" in Canada. For the most part it seems to be a direct copy of FMVSS, with some differences such as requirements for daytime running lights and 5 mph bumpers.

Is the calculation of GCVWR actually regulated in any way? I think you need to answer that question first. I believe that you will find that it isn't, unlike GVWR. I note that only GVWR is shown on the label in the photo.

[dznf0g]

It is regulated from the standpoint of DOT inspections on commercial trucks over 10,000lbs GVWR. If you're over GCWR (per mfr. spec) on the scales, you're grounded and fined. (This 10,000lb level is new, used to be higher).
FMVSS only requires label to have tire pressures, and size, GVWR, GFAWR, GRAWR, and VIN.

For private vehicles, it's not until you have a wreck or other liability situation that you're exposed to problems.

Look, here's the bottom line.

1) Can anybody show us a statement from any DOT saying it is ok to exceed GVWR, GAWR, GCWR or max trailer weight?

2) Can anybody show us the same from ANY Mfr. as well as a statement that their warranty is valid for affected components if these specs are exceeded?

3) Can anybody show us the same from an attorney stating that there is no liability for operating a rig exceeding these specs?

Show me these things and I'll eat a whole pie of crow.

[dkottum]

Who cares? Not I. Let's talk towing.

Doug

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by dkottum

Who cares? Not I. Let's talk towing.

Doug

We are. We're talking about towing 8000# with a car rated for 3300#.

[dkottum]

We already know why we can't do it. Now let's go back to how we can.

Doug

[BillTex]

Originally Posted by Andrew T

for example even impared drivers have insurance coverage.
Thanks

Andy

Andy...I don't think so...not here in the US.
I understand you want to sell hitches...but that is just not true...you're intoxicated...you're on your own Bud...better review a (US insurance) policy before you make a statement like that.

[Airslide]

Originally Posted by Andrew T

Hi Vinnie

I appreciate your insite into the drivetrain, what did the engineer feel was the weak link? It would be unusual for a company like Volvo to equip a vehicle with a drivetrain that is not up to its engine capability espessially when you consider the Turbo can pump a lot more power through this drive train.

For this customer another vehicle is not an option they don't have a driveway to leave a suburban in so they must have a low profile tow vehicle and prefer a wagon. These days that is a pretty short list and it is hard to beat a Volvo wagon. We have other customers with the XC70, some of them tow trailers consdierably harder tow than the Airstream and so far we have not had any issues.

I understand the XC70 uses the Ford / GM joint venture 6 speed that is used in the Flex and Enclave. We have about 40 customers now using this tranny many with larger trailers with larger engines with no issues at all. Volvo's were actually the very first smaller cars we ever set up, I guess because their owners were so dedicated to them. I remember putting hitches on them in the early 70's. Since that time we have set up a lot of different Volvo's for customers and we have just never had any durability issues with any of them.

The European towing spec has been the same for every Volvo model since the 70's even thought the cars have dramatically improved over that time. The big issue with European specs is that they use no weight distribution let alone a Hensley, primative mechanical brakes and their trailers have more aerodynamic drag than an Airstream. Their trailers are light but not necessarily easy to tow. You also see solo Volvo's in Europe cruising at speeds well over 100 MPH, I always figured this was much harder on the car than towing a 60 MPH. I think is one reason why European cars seem to have so much overbuild in them. On the other hand you rarely see one in Europe that is not impecably maintained.

For those who are worried about insurance, tow ratings are not legal number they are a recomendation only. Again some vehicles with very high tow ratings are very unstable vehicles putting a trailer on them does not make them better. Should I recomend a vehicle to a customer that I know is less stable and less safe just because a marketing department pulled a bigger number out of the hat? Once an insurance company makes the decision to cover you they have to do so, they can elect not to cover you again after and incident, for example even impared drivers have insurance coverage. Again in 33 years of doing this we have never had a customer have an insurance issue.

Thanks

Andy

Hi Andy..

The GM transmission has been a disaster for Volvo. Volvo is standing behind the unit well after the warranty period however the same reconditioned unit is going back in. Lets cross our fingers on that one. The transmission the XC70 uses is aisin. Like the GM, it is a very compressed unit stuffed into a small area. Towing an 8000 pound trailer with a combined weight of possibly 12000 pounds? The engineering staff feels this will be the weak point.

I have seen your work and I am a fan of the hitch designs and setups... so exceeding the towing capabilities is one thing but 2 1/2 times the tow capacity? To me thats the issue. The owner does not seemed concerned about the wear and tear so thats fine. Afterall its just a car and we have dozens more on the lot.

Do you offer professional driving classes with your installations? It might be a good idea to have the owner go through some basic road course situations. We offer this with the purchase of our vehicles out at Infinity raceway. People are amazed at what their vehicle can do in a controlled environment but also understand how to handle their car in a bit of a panic. It might be the responsible thing to do for your client.

Vinnie

[2airishuman]

at least 2x a month for many many years...

threads about marginal or inadequate potential tow vehicles appear here...

in years past the mods and senior members were more than willing to point out the issues...

and describe exactly how ridiculous most of those combinations might be...

as mods they were allowed to post using words like 'troll' or 'crazy' or dangerous...

but times change here.

some of the older threads worth looking at are here...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...f150-7593.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...dstar-849.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...epid-3636.html

there are literally 100s of them but the windstar threads are especially relevant.

since not long ago most of those w'stars driven in the northeast and rust belt...

were found to have rusted/defective axles and suspensions about to fall apart.

the recall affects 100s of thousands of these things after a few 100 did lose axles...

imagine what might have happened IF many of them were used for towing.
_________

the volvo in question has axles rated to 2800 lbs and 2600 lbs.

the volvo in question has a gCvwr of ~7500 lbs (less than the trailer solo)

the payload is 1200 lbs (less than the tongue and hitch combined without people)

and so on...

'towing capacity or rating is not a legal/official determination but axle rating and gCvwr are.

using the newly formulated SAE towing tests/standards, TOYOTA has RErated their trucks...

this has resulted in DErating by 400 to 1000 lbs on the newest t'dra.
_________

there is a concept in public health called herd immunity, google it.

basically herd immunity means that if MOST of a population are protected via immunization,

those FEW who don't immunize (for what ever reason) will be protected by the 'herd' of immunized folks around them.

we may NEVER read about accidents or vehicle failures that originate at canAM...

because their pool of rv'rs (even 40 years worth) is tiny relative to the larger world of rv'rs.

the shop owner claims that no 0ne using one of his favorite C rated tires (in D rated applications) has ever had an issue...

in fact no one has ever had a flat using the tire.

how amazing is that?

as we all know 1000s of rigs go down the road every day with dangerous, broken or improperly hitched trailers...

and seldom do those folks suffer.

the lack of braking down or crashing is not proof of right.
___________

there was an infamous doc early in this century who developed a cure of male impotence.

he and his clinic became WILDLY famous, so much so that he may have been elected governor...

IF all the write in votes had been honestly counted.

his "cure" was totally bogus and yet 1000s of men and their wives offered testimonial to the good.

it was in the early days of radio and he had his own radio show, then his own radio tower and station.

this was just like NOW in terms of discovering the value of direct media to promote a business.

he was doing media politics before anyone else even knew it was happening.

the now internet is a radio tower with 2 way links and webbed party lines.

when the establishment tried to control this guy, restrict his license and curtail his BIZARRE medical cures...

he simply moved the radio tower to mexico,

amped up the power and broadcast right back to the same american midwest audience...

it's an amazing story really,

and the average person jmay ust love an antiestablishment rebel...

John R. Brinkley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Story of John R. Brinkley

The Best Darn Story Of The Whole 20th Century
________

for those that don't get it, here is just ONE of the points...

these threads are simply advertisements.

they are basically viral postings/exchanges and do everything that viral media intends...

but without having to pay for the airwaves or air space.

sometime the o.p. isn't even aware that's it is viral...

till the 2 sides start REplie'n
_________

unfortunately a few totally naive folks may get sucked into the vortex and become customers.

that is after all the entire purpose behind viral media.

most see/realize the ridiculousness of some of these towing combinations...

even if welding makes them possible.
_________

liability IS an issue, there are NO shops doing this stuff in the us of a, like there were 40 years past.

the states all have basic statues on a few of the Noncommercial towing issues...

but largely it's left up to the LEO to interpret and determine what is safe or UNsafe.

that is gradually changing.

what is also changing is how/if/when the a/s MOTHERSHIP becomes responsible for the actions performed by one of it's dealerships.

in days past they could have legitimately claimed NOT 2 know what is being done...

but now, with everyone knowing that the CORPORATE folks read and use this social/political/advertising knowledge sharing stuff...

it would be very hard for them (a/s corp) to claim they are UNaware of some of these grossly inadequate towing combos.

this eventually connects them (a/s corp) to the rigs and merchant welding those rigs and selling the streams.

once aware of some of the many rigs set up which violate most of the accepted towing standards...

a/s becomes a partner in these rigs by suppling the streams for sale.

pleading ignorance or non involvement is about to vanish.
__________

100s of us here (that's all that really left, still using this outdated forum tool) care and know some of these rigs are silly.

but the single best thing everyone can do who has concerns about marginal or grossly inadequate rigging combos...

is to simply ignore the post/thread or rigging combo question.

sure we care and certainly some of the combinations are wildly dangerous...

but most folks choosing to avoid public health issue (like immunizations) are protected by the herd...

even when their personal actions or behavior is dangerous.

so by ignoring and not posting even a sensible reply...

it will be as if no one was listening when doc brinkley signed on with the goat gland hour of radio...

forget about the popup ads or sidebar ads,

it is the posts/threads that are blatant viral adverts we should avoid.

cheers
2air'

[dkottum]

So the world is indeed flat,

those who have sailed to the edge

have disappeared never to be heard of again.

And he who doubts

is but a crook.

Give me a break.

[Road Ruler]

Originally Posted by Airslide

Hi Andy..

Do you offer professional driving classes with your installations? It might be a good idea to have the owner go through some basic road course situations. We offer this with the purchase of our vehicles out at Infinity raceway. People are amazed at what their vehicle can do in a controlled environment but also understand how to handle their car in a bit of a panic. It might be the responsible thing to do for your client.

Vinnie

With all due respect, by your statement your giving the impression you think Andy's combinations are difficult to drive and control. The complete opposite is in fact the truth. This is one of the characteristics that folks don't seem to understand.
Regardless of weights and numbers many of these special combination will out perform a traditional truck base combination in every way.

KEY STATEMENT........If you ever have the chance to test drive a Can Am set up as many of us have done you would understand.

[Ag&Au]

Obviously any commercially made vehicle is designed to support its own weight, and any travel trailer can support its own weight. So why don't they put the axles on travel trailers in front and back instead of in the middle with the front one's steerable like a kid's wagon? There would be no need for WD as each would carry only its own weight. It seems to me like that would work fine as long as the braking system and front axle steering was designed properly.

Ken

[withidl]

Originally Posted by w7ts

Obviously any commercially made vehicle is designed to support its own weight, and any travel trailer can support its own weight. So why don't they put the axles on travel trailers in front and back instead of in the middle with the front one's steerable like a kid's wagon? There would be no need for WD as each would carry only its own weight. It seems to me like that would work fine as long as the braking system and front axle steering was designed properly.

Ken

The assembly would be difficult to back up and there are probably other controlability issues. The common carriers do pull two trailers, the 2nd of which is a FULL trailer, but they are traveling dock to dock where there is a "mule" to deal with the full trailer upon arrival so backing is not an issue.

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by withidl

The assembly would be difficult to back up and there are probably other controlability issues. The common carriers do pull two trailers, the 2nd of which is a FULL trailer, but they are traveling dock to dock where there is a "mule" to deal with the full trailer upon arrival so backing is not an issue.

That brings up another question.

If a computer can take care of all the stability issues of a F-22 supersonic fighter and also a large cruise ship, why not a tow vehicle trailer combination?

Ken

[2airishuman]

using the puter 2 control things has been available for 3-4 years...

with refinement each year, more control variables and wider offerings (trucks/vans/suvs n cars)

the hay wagon notion is proposed here occasionally...

here is one older thread with a link 2 another...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f437...-tt-27629.html

cheers
2air'

[withidl]

Originally Posted by w7ts

That brings up another question.

If a computer can take care of all the stability issues of a F-22 supersonic fighter and also a large cruise ship, why not a tow vehicle trailer combination?

Ken

I tow with a 2001 BMW X5 which has "Dynamic Stability Control" wherein it's computer interceeds in under / over steer conditions and pulses the left or right side brakes to correct (makes the vehicle behave like a "tracked" vehicle).

My X5 has a "Towing Module" (part of the OEM hitch) which interfaces with the 7 pin connector and actually notified me on the instrument display that I had a rear trailer running light out but does not act to control trailer braking.

Later models, I believe starting in 2004, incorporated (quote from BMW) "Trailer Stability Control" which is "constantly monitoring the rotation movement of the vehicle using special sensors. If these values exceed the safe limit, trailer stability control activates the brakes on all four wheels via the DSC hydraulics. Simultaneously, the engine output is reduced. The resulting drop in speed brings the trailer back to stability".

There is no mention of the DSC activating the trailer brakes which it probably doesn't do because of the unknown variences between the many different trailer / brake combinations which the DSC probably can't be programmed to compenstate for.

So I guess the answer is: They are getting there, if not already there.

[Ike T]

There is really no replacement for wheelbase and width in a tow vehicle. No amount of engineering can make up for the ability to both control and distribute weight over a larger physical area. Your vehicle just isn't going to magically become wider and longer (and hence, more stable) when you need it most.

Give me my 7,000 pound, 164" wheelbase truck with an 80" width stance and our 5,000 lb-max 24' trailer. At least I know the trailer has to work much harder to upset the truck as compared to the combination you are considering.

[Smartstream]

I find this discussion to be very interesting with all the different opinions and viewpoints. Many quotes and interpretations of insurance, manufacturers and government rules, regulations and specifications.

The thing that is not mentioned and seems to be totally overlooked is to me the most important issue, the pile of organic material that occupies the space between the seat cushion and the steering wheel.

Any person of legal age can walk into any dealership and the only requirement to drive away with a multi ton vehicle combination is the ability to write a check. The best engineered towing set-up in the hands of an unexperienced driver is far more of a danger than the marginal set-up in the hands of an experienced driver.

I feel much safer driving next to the guy properly trained to operate a well engineered vehicle combination than the untrained guy who thinks his bigger is better outfit is all that is required to overcome all the challenges that might arise while towing his pride and joy down the highway. I just wish our government regulators felt the same way.

This may not answer the queation can a Volvo tow an AS but it should be part of the answer.

Cheers, Dan

[triplenet]

Why aren't travel trailers made like a wagon?

They will not back up. From my experience in pulling hay trailers, the only way to back up a wagon is to hitch the front of the tractor to the trailer.

Bob