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Old 03-02-2015, 05:18 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Gene View Post
Capri', I know what is in the tires carries the load whether it is air, nitrogen or beer (what a waste unless you like to drink hot beer as you let it out of the valve stem). But don't Michelin Rib tires have steel belts in the sidewall and will carry some of the load? I don't think they are appropriate for anything but what they are designed for—trucks that stay in urban areas and never go very fast and are made to be recapped once the tread wears. Some people use them on their trailers and are happy with them, though I think the ride is too hard for a trailer or a tow vehicle.

This doesn't really matter in the real world, but I'm curious about it.

Gene
Gene,

First, by definition belts appear under the tread only - not in the sidewall.

Second, most Michelin tires do NOT have steel body plies (which is what I think you were alluding to).

However, Michelin does produce tires that do have steel body plies. Pretty much all of their medium truck tire lines are steel body plies. They also produce an abbreviated line of LT tires with steel body plies - the XPS, which only comes in a rib pattern. (Note: Michelin has other LT designs that have polyester body plies, some of which are rib designs).

And lastly, the material used in the sidewall is irrelevant. What is important is the strength. A LOT of polyester can be stronger then a LITTLE bit of steel.

And you are correct, their abbreviated LT line called the XPS Rib was designed for commercial usage where ride is NOT a consideration and where retreadability offsets the initial cost.
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Old 03-02-2015, 09:33 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by CapriRacer View Post
Gene,

First, by definition belts appear under the tread only - not in the sidewall.

Second, most Michelin tires do NOT have steel body plies (which is what I think you were alluding to).

However, Michelin does produce tires that do have steel body plies. Pretty much all of their medium truck tire lines are steel body plies. They also produce an abbreviated line of LT tires with steel body plies - the XPS, which only comes in a rib pattern. (Note: Michelin has other LT designs that have polyester body plies, some of which are rib designs).

And lastly, the material used in the sidewall is irrelevant. What is important is the strength. A LOT of polyester can be stronger then a LITTLE bit of steel.

And you are correct, their abbreviated LT line called the XPS Rib was designed for commercial usage where ride is NOT a consideration and where retreadability offsets the initial cost.
Gene
I know you asked C-Racer and specifically mentioned Michelin but Bridgestone and other major tire companies make similar "Commercial" or "Medium duty" tires with steel body ply. The Bridgestone steel body tire is the R250. You can check with Tire Rack for other possible suppliers.

The technical portion of Capri's reply is accurate and correct no matter the brand.
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Old 03-02-2015, 10:04 AM   #23
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I am told the Rib has a steel mesh in the sidewall, not steel cord. I don't know what the difference is, and I can see a cord or mesh of other substances could be stronger. It would seem to me that would provide some small amount of support, but I am not a tireman or racer of anything, and that is why I asked the question.

I thought all Michelins had a steel cord in the tread plies. Since a "cord" could mean steel wires woven into a mesh, I think mesh is probably a more accurate term. When I have had to fix a flat in remote places, I ran into steel something (really a mesh I think) when I reamed out the hole and pushed the plug through. It made it much harder to get through the tread. These were on LTX tires. By the way, although plugs are not as good as a patch inside, when in extremis, a plug works fine. I haven't had to do this often (twice I can remember in 25 or more years), but the plugs held for the life of the tire and never leaked. I always carry a tire kit with me if case I have to repair a tire myself.

Thanks for the responses. I have learned more about tires than I ever wanted to know since we bought the trailer. Now I can misinform people and throw technical terms around just like any other guy.

Gene
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Old 03-03-2015, 02:51 AM   #24
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The XPS and r250 are the "ultimate" trailer tires as I see it (where the rating is a good match for that vehicle).

Bluto uses the former and I plan to use the latter on my TT this year.
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Old 03-03-2015, 04:03 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Gene View Post
I am told the Rib has a steel mesh in the sidewall, not steel cord. I don't know what the difference is, and I can see a cord or mesh of other substances could be stronger. It would seem to me that would provide some small amount of support, but I am not a tireman or racer of anything, and that is why I asked the question.

I thought all Michelins had a steel cord in the tread plies. Since a "cord" could mean steel wires woven into a mesh, I think mesh is probably a more accurate term. When I have had to fix a flat in remote places, I ran into steel something (really a mesh I think) when I reamed out the hole and pushed the plug through. It made it much harder to get through the tread. These were on LTX tires. By the way, although plugs are not as good as a patch inside, when in extremis, a plug works fine. I haven't had to do this often (twice I can remember in 25 or more years), but the plugs held for the life of the tire and never leaked. I always carry a tire kit with me if case I have to repair a tire myself.

Thanks for the responses. I have learned more about tires than I ever wanted to know since we bought the trailer. Now I can misinform people and throw technical terms around just like any other guy.

Gene
Gene,

It's a little difficult to explain, but the term "cord" means a cable-like, or rope-like, or thread-like thing, and not a mesh. There are a lot of technical reasons why tire manufacturers use cord and not mesh, but they involve a long discussion of manufacturing techniques.

In the belts, there are 2 that layer over top of one another and form a grid like series of layers that sort of resembles a mesh, except they are not interwoven. It is NOT like a wire mesh fence.
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Old 03-03-2015, 07:21 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Gene View Post
I am told the Rib has a steel mesh in the sidewall, not steel cord. I don't know what the difference is, and I can see a cord or mesh of other substances could be stronger. It would seem to me that would provide some small amount of support, but I am not a tireman or racer of anything, and that is why I asked the question.

I thought all Michelins had a steel cord in the tread plies. Since a "cord" could mean steel wires woven into a mesh, I think mesh is probably a more accurate term. When I have had to fix a flat in remote places, I ran into steel something (really a mesh I think) when I reamed out the hole and pushed the plug through. It made it much harder to get through the tread. These were on LTX tires. By the way, although plugs are not as good as a patch inside, when in extremis, a plug works fine. I haven't had to do this often (twice I can remember in 25 or more years), but the plugs held for the life of the tire and never leaked. I always carry a tire kit with me if case I have to repair a tire myself.

Thanks for the responses. I have learned more about tires than I ever wanted to know since we bought the trailer. Now I can misinform people and throw technical terms around just like any other guy.

Gene
Gene, Just so you get overloaded with more tire info here is a basic page on tires.

Video on manufacturing from Hankook

Michelin movie. Note the cord is not "woven" into a mesh as is the cotton in your T-shirtbut the cords are parallel to each other

Agriculture and Mining tires are made in the process that is similar to NASCAR or F1 racing tires. Note the "Calendering" process shows cords that are parallel to each other and not woven into a mesh.

A tire builder from 1934 would recognize most of today's process other than the difference between Bias and Radial construction.

Tire manufacturing in Africa.

Just an old school video of how tires are made

The few tires I personally built during my early training were the "Old School" type. This hands on training gave me a good understanding with the professional builders did every day with the designs I was to be developing.


Enjoy
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Old 03-03-2015, 12:25 PM   #27
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Ahhhhrgghhh! TMI. I don't want to build my own tires. I appreciate all the information, but decided decades ago I didn't want to be an engineer. It interferred with drinking, girls and I had to go to class. I hated calculus. I can't draw a straight line. Physics was taught by people who couldn't master English (and they were probably born here back then). Chemistry could have been interesting, but they managed to make it dense and boring. Hooray for liberal arts!

Now I know more about cords and mesh and if someone wants to bring me tires cut apart, it would be interesting. I do like to know how things work. But our decades long love of Michelin LTX tires has been confirmed by using them without incident (except for a rare nail, screw or broken chain link—only steel wheels are immune). I keep hoping these tire threads will provide me with something new and useful to my life, but we have pretty much exhausted the subject.

Roll on friends….

Gene
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Old 03-04-2015, 06:18 AM   #28
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Ahhhhrgghhh! TMI. I don't want to build my own tires. I appreciate all the information, but decided decades ago I didn't want to be an engineer. It interferred with drinking, girls and I had to go to class. I hated calculus. I can't draw a straight line. Physics was taught by people who couldn't master English (and they were probably born here back then). Chemistry could have been interesting, but they managed to make it dense and boring. Hooray for liberal arts!

Now I know more about cords and mesh and if someone wants to bring me tires cut apart, it would be interesting. I do like to know how things work. But our decades long love of Michelin LTX tires has been confirmed by using them without incident (except for a rare nail, screw or broken chain link—only steel wheels are immune). I keep hoping these tire threads will provide me with something new and useful to my life, but we have pretty much exhausted the subject.

Roll on friends….

Gene
OK short answer
"mesh" or "cloth" implies cords being assembled at right angle to each other. You don't get that in tires.
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