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Old 03-16-2019, 11:53 AM   #21
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Hello

If you would like to keep your Tacoma it can be made to work much better. A 22 Sport can be very easy for it handle in serious winds etc.

Durability wise they are fantastic, it will likely still be towing when many new trucks are done.

The downside is your rear overhang to wheel base ratio is very long which detracts from stability, contributing to that are the tires with massive amounts of sidewall roll. Installing Bilstein Shocks and changing the tires to a smaller more precise handling size will make all the difference in the world to it.

Only 5% or so of hitches are actually truly dialed in and 50% are terrible so this also where you likely can create a drastic improvement. If you like send me a picture of your hitch set up and I can almost always point out some improvements. andy@canamrv.ca

We have several customers who tow 25's with Tacoma's and several others towing trailers much harder to tow than an Airstream.

Then again sometimes you just want a new truck. If you get a new 1/2 ton make sure you get the 20" wheel option as the tires handle better and rims are wider.

I hope this helps.

Andy
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Old 03-16-2019, 12:03 PM   #22
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Andy, you should change your name to "Johnny on the spot" or "The Shell Answer Man". Good suggestions and always ready to help. Thx.
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Old 03-16-2019, 12:03 PM   #23
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I've most everything , towing driving and modifying in the past , built mud & pull trucks etc.
Just think about it from A , C , etc.
Your on a road [ dirty or pavement ] the 1st thing your dealing with is tires - there is a whole multitude of variables , what compound the tire is made of , hard / soft each has advantages & disadvantages , soft more grip - shorter tire life , hard less grip / longer millage .
Then and again 1st thing how much weight the tire can carry [ look on the print on the tire - it will say ] that is almost always related to tire-plies , for towing or carry a lot in a P/U truck , 1/2 ton trucks generally come with less plies for more smother ride , 3/4 ton+ come with 10 ply stiffer=carries more weight / stiffer ride .
I had a 3/4 ton truck from telephone company , had a utility body for a bed & an electric crane , loaded it with tools and now weighed almost 10,000 lbs.
Taking exit ramp , it would want to go off road at most speeds that most others would drive normally .
It was built with single rear wheels [ and remember 3/4 ton - now 10,000 lbs ]
So I added 10 ply tires and dual wheels on back , also spring over shocks .
Now at twice the speed on exit ramp - it felt like I was riding on rails .
Stiffer tires [ 10 ply ] made big difference - but then if you are talking slippery roads water , snow , ice - the dual tend to slide more - [ every thing has to side to your choices ] so no one answer works for everyone .
As an example manufactures made pickup trucks to be trucks , then to make the wives & kids feel better , they started to add car suspensions to trucks for better ride - generally a full size car & a 1/2 ton pickup are BOTH 1/2 ton .
Then next is the suspension , stiff or not , weight capacity OR NOT .
What most for get is the next , when the weight capacity goes up - SO DOES the braking - getting the truck & trailer going is less important - THE CONTROL & STOPPING !!!
If you are going to compromise your capacity for comfort - I do not want to be on the road with you
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Old 03-16-2019, 12:08 PM   #24
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JohnTF, jfmi, do you believe a (real) TV rating is based on stopping/ controlling a TT with no TT brakes?
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Old 03-16-2019, 01:27 PM   #25
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Heavier mass, beyond what is required to build a cost effective structure, is not so much value. All added must be moved and stopped. Much better to have enough and no more. Momentum works well in trains. Much less so on vehicles that travel the twisty mountain roads, which RVers find beautiful to explore.

Wheelbase is of limited value when it extends past what is functional for solo applications. Low center of gravity is golden in every application (except when that creeky old body can't lower into the seat of the Corvette any more ).

Wider track is another very good design parameter when the objective is stability. Stiff sidewall or low profile tires with a large contact patch improve stability. Independent suspension, rack and pinion steering, performance/adjustable dampers, anti-roll bars, short overhangs, stiff chassis construction, and large brakes also add to vehicle stability.

Many of us use less than ideal vehicles to tow our shinys. No harm in that as we all like the types of vehicles that give us smiles. Just know what you are giving up and slow down when what you have is not appropriate for the conditions. Mass hides the indications of excursion motion. More mass is harder to stop, more expensive to move, and more difficult to change the direction of travel. The one defense against wind is a low profile. It is why crusing sailboats have short rigs, race cars are very low to the ground, and good tow vehicles are lowered and not raised.

The better Tacoma needs smaller diameter tires and to be lowered as much as the suspension design allows (many suspension geometry designs can only be lowered an inch before the modification degrades performance). A move to the wider configuration of a full size half ton or a low profile SUV is a very good upgrade. The newer mid size trucks do tend to be wider, but some are taller too. Consider both trends in your decision. An even better upgrade would be a sedan, but no OEM is building them with the tow capacity ratings that they could easily support.

Note - it does not take a PE to understand good design. It does not take a physics professor to understand the basics of momentum, mass, acceleration, dynamic vs static forces and that our towing application is not the same as driving solo. It does take an open mind to review all, research enough to develop an understanding, and accept the reality that too much of anything is less than desirable for some reason. Hence, we all must compromise. However, we do not have to give up on smiles. Pat
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Old 03-16-2019, 05:00 PM   #26
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Thanks!

Well I attached photos of unhitched hitch. It's an Equalizer brand although the hitch part into receiver is Blue Ox.

I do have larger wheels/tires 265 70R/17 which are brand new...

Wind is one issue but I get pushed by semi's too.

Now that I'm towing minor issues have been magnified, suspension and brakes spongy (brakes have always been like this) Lack of modern sway controls and other safety components...

I test drove 2019 Tundras and Tacoma's today. I see the complaints about the Tundra...bench seats, column shifter....Nice and peppy though but dismal mileage at 13-17mpg

The Tacoma has same torque but more HP 278 v 236 and it felt nice! They wouldn't let me hook up the AS and drive to the mountains though

Both were same price! I was ready to get one or another before a super low ball trade in offer came in. I had to physically point and circle where the guy added low quality components or neglected upgrades in the offer. Came in $6000 below mid KBB! Then song and dance BS ensued.. "we give less trade in because we don't pad the new truck price and detail and certify" I then pointed at "auction price" right next to number and they still couldn't come correct and started to denigrate the competition...

I feel like a new tight anything may make a big difference... plus peace of mind of new TV...

Thanks!

R44
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Old 03-16-2019, 11:22 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james.mileur View Post
JohnTF, jfmi, do you believe a (real) TV rating is based on stopping/ controlling a TT with no TT brakes?
Where does that come from ?
I was only talking about how the capacity of any vehicle is rated .
And what the factors involved are , you are jumping to an assumption - that I never referred to .
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Old 03-17-2019, 03:46 AM   #28
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Andy, I assume you like 20" for sidewall rigidity. You can get these as regular all terrain on the 2019 F150 Sport model.

What about 18" LT offered on F150 with payload option? In comparison max tow comes with 17" AT + 3.5L ecoboost.

Do you like the 8' box 163" wheelbase that is std for F150 combined payload + max tow packages? Here's what I'm looking at.

https://www.autonation.com/cars/1FTF...26*Cars.comNew
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Old 03-17-2019, 06:39 AM   #29
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Hi Rounder

If you want to save the cost of a new truck you can spend a small amount on this one and run it for years.

Your hitch set up is never going to handle well and I would replace it even on a new truck. I am not a fan of the Equalizer brand because the torsion bars are not tapered. Virtually any spring you look at will have a tapered spring which is done so the spring has range of motion or travel. This is important when you drive through a dip or up into a gas station with the un-tapered torsion bar your hitch receiver or A frame will bend before the bars do. So you can set up for proper weight distribution but after a few dips the hitch is out of adjustment again. On the Tacoma we would use a shank that allows a very close coupling or a welded ball mount which is ideal. You already have a long overhang which you are artificially making longer.

Your other issue is the tires you have. If you grab the side of your truck box and push side to side you will notice you can roll it several inches side to side this is what you are feeling in crosswinds etc. The best tire to use for your application are Yokohama AVID Envigors P235/65R x 16 XL (extra load). These tires will have a fraction of the sidewall roll and far more steering feel. The ride will be firmer but much more controlled. As well you will get better fuel economy due to less rolling resistance and have considerably more power due to the smaller diameter. Your speedometer will read 8% fast however so 60 MPH actual speed will read as 65. The tire dealer will freak out when you ask for these, he will tell you the anti lock brakes won't work the transmission won't shift right, the rotation of the earth will change etc. None of this happens and we have done this change to a couple of hundred Tachoma's and 4Runners (same chassis). It also won't be as good for off road but still likely better than any full size 1/2 ton except maybe a Raptor. I know you just put new tires on so it will cost a bit to do the swap but you will pay for the swap in fuel savings over time.

Here are photos of a proper hitch configuration with a bolt together and welded ball mount.

I hope this helps.

Andy
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Old 03-17-2019, 06:42 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by RosGar View Post
We had unexpected sway with Toyota Tacoma pulling 23 FB—in seconds trailer rolled over on I-5; terrifying experience; one semi passing and gust of side winds! Shop for a heavier truck!
Sorry about your experience. I trust nobody got hurt?
One thing to consider: the last time I checked, the 23FB has a rather low tongue weight/trailer weight ratio (compared to other AS models). It wouldn’t take much to accidentally load too much in the rear of the trailer causing a marginal stability issue. I heard stories of instability from other folks who had a 23FB.
I think setup is king here.
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Old 03-17-2019, 07:05 AM   #31
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Andy, I assume you like 20" for sidewall rigidity. You can get these as regular all terrain on the 2019 F150 Sport model.

What about 18" LT offered on F150 with payload option? In comparison max tow comes with 17" AT + 3.5L ecoboost.

Do you like the 8' box 163" wheelbase that is std for F150 combined payload + max tow packages? Here's what I'm looking at.

https://www.autonation.com/cars/1FTF...26*Cars.comNew
The truck you are looking at will tow quite well due to the long wheelbase and if you are carrying a lot of weight in the box the payload package is a good idea. The 18" LT tires are tighter handling than the passenger tires but have a little less grip. The 20's handle better due to the wider rims and shorter sidewalls even though they are passenger tires.

Two disadvantages to the 8' box are that the truck takes a lot of room to turn and maneuver and there is more chassis flex the longer the box is. If you don't need the 8' box a 6.5' with the supercab is a good combination and will be easier to get into campsites with.

When calculating payload the mistake people make is that they think the entire hitchweight of the Airstream needs to come out of payload but if you connect the hitch properly you will only use about 3-500 pounds of payload for the hitch weight. This because you will spread some weight to the trailer wheels and some to the front wheels of the truck where Ford does not understand you can apply weight. Really your concern is you don't over load axles which is pretty hard to do.

I would set this up with an Eaz-Lift 1400 Elite hitch. Unfortunately these now come with a poor cast iron shank that forces the ball out further than we would like so we have our own shanks made now.

Andy
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Old 03-17-2019, 09:38 AM   #32
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Hi Rounder

If you want to save the cost of a new truck you can spend a small amount on this one and run it for years.

Your hitch set up is never going to handle well and I would replace it even on a new truck. I am not a fan of the Equalizer brand because the torsion bars are not tapered. Virtually any spring you look at will have a tapered spring which is done so the spring has range of motion or travel. This is important when you drive through a dip or up into a gas station with the un-tapered torsion bar your hitch receiver or A frame will bend before the bars do. So you can set up for proper weight distribution but after a few dips the hitch is out of adjustment again. On the Tacoma we would use a shank that allows a very close coupling or a welded ball mount which is ideal. You already have a long overhang which you are artificially making longer.

Your other issue is the tires you have. If you grab the side of your truck box and push side to side you will notice you can roll it several inches side to side this is what you are feeling in crosswinds etc. The best tire to use for your application are Yokohama AVID Envigors P235/65R x 16 XL (extra load). These tires will have a fraction of the sidewall roll and far more steering feel. The ride will be firmer but much more controlled. As well you will get better fuel economy due to less rolling resistance and have considerably more power due to the smaller diameter. Your speedometer will read 8% fast however so 60 MPH actual speed will read as 65. The tire dealer will freak out when you ask for these, he will tell you the anti lock brakes won't work the transmission won't shift right, the rotation of the earth will change etc. None of this happens and we have done this change to a couple of hundred Tachoma's and 4Runners (same chassis). It also won't be as good for off road but still likely better than any full size 1/2 ton except maybe a Raptor. I know you just put new tires on so it will cost a bit to do the swap but you will pay for the swap in fuel savings over time.

Here are photos of a proper hitch configuration with a bolt together and welded ball mount.

I hope this helps.

Andy
Thanks!

I do enough off roading to want the tires I have. They are HD 10 plys and made a huge difference already. While those Yokohamas look ok I'd hate to try to pull my Airstream out of a muddy situation and clearance not to be factored out. I know a lower TV will stabalize the ride but not sure I want the other 75% of the time I drive it to be compromised. Thanks again though!

The welded ball mount intrigues me but hitch wise I've been around the block 10x and would either keep the Equalizer or go crazy with a ProPride and be done with in spades!

I think the next order of business IF I keep the Tacoma is stiffen suspension. I was getting some good pogo and it seems last couple trips worse. Clothes are off the hangers after every trip and that was not the case the first few longer trips. Perhaps the shocks gave out.... Even steering feels less tight after comparing to a new truck yesterday... and that was unhitched!

All combined things may point at a new vehicle just to cover ALL bases once and for all and be done with for a while.

Thanks,

R44
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Old 03-17-2019, 11:01 AM   #33
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Andy, thanx for the input. Being one never to miss a chance pestering an expert (I've read your papers and watched a few videos), let me ask you this question:

Assume a completely blank slate. We're looking at a 25 FC FBT. If you had $50k to spend on a TV with 0 pre-conceived opinions, what 3 TVs would you pick in rank order?

The only conditions are no German nor English vehicles. My wife has a small MB C class and doesn't want a bigger model. While I know you love your Jag, that's a bit too much for me.

So that basically means US or Japanese. Also, wife is deputy counsel at a major insurance firm, so no playing on the GVWR margins no matter how persuasive your argument.

From your response it sounds like you like the F150 Sport that comes with Scab 6.5' box, 20" passenger tires and 145" wheelbase. In 2wd, max tow payload is around 1,600 lbs.

Is that enough with 500 lbs of passengers (2), hitch and gear? What do people normally run 25' at? I know GVWR is 7,300 lbs - what is avg GVW and TW?

Of your top 3 picks, do any/all need your special ball/shank weld mods to shorten/strengthen run?

I've got my notepad out awaiting your verdict.
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Old 03-17-2019, 11:56 AM   #34
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I should add that both std and max tow F150 tires are 245/70R17 all season. Max tow rear is 3.55.

$1,500 STX Sport option is 275/55R20 all season.

$1,500 max payload (requires 8' box) are LT 275/65R18. Rear goes to 3.73.

Assuming F150, stick with max tow Scab, 6.5' box, 145" wb, 3.55 re, 3.5L eb, and 17" rims swapping to Yokohama XL?
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Old 03-17-2019, 01:01 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by PKI View Post
Heavier mass, beyond what is required to build a cost effective structure, is not so much value. All added must be moved and stopped. Much better to have enough and no more. Momentum works well in trains. Much less so on vehicles that travel the twisty mountain roads, which RVers find beautiful to explore.
I agree with your other points, but in this one point, in regards to the specific topic here, you are absolutely wrong.

Wind stability, as one said earlier in this thread, is largely mass to side profile. More weight and more profile is not necessarily more stability for those pitching their bigger and taller trucks.

More weight in a given profile is absolutely more stability. One often forgets, that a larger trailer has more profile. Sure, there's schools of practice that pride themselves on towing with smaller vehicles. Compensating with very well setup hitches to maximize tow vehicle control of lateral movements.

But all else equal, mass and ballast absolutely is a variable, and a significant one, in the equation. Hence the post of the rig that blew over which is exceedingly heavy compared to our consumer vehicles. Yet, the trailer was very likely empty in that case.

Handling, that's another discussion.
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Old 03-17-2019, 02:55 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Rounder44 View Post
Thanks!

I do enough off roading to want the tires I have. They are HD 10 plys and made a huge difference already. While those Yokohamas look ok I'd hate to try to pull my Airstream out of a muddy situation and clearance not to be factored out. I know a lower TV will stabalize the ride but not sure I want the other 75% of the time I drive it to be compromised. Thanks again though!

The welded ball mount intrigues me but hitch wise I've been around the block 10x and would either keep the Equalizer or go crazy with a ProPride and be done with in spades!

I think the next order of business IF I keep the Tacoma is stiffen suspension. I was getting some good pogo and it seems last couple trips worse. Clothes are off the hangers after every trip and that was not the case the first few longer trips. Perhaps the shocks gave out.... Even steering feels less tight after comparing to a new truck yesterday... and that was unhitched!

All combined things may point at a new vehicle just to cover ALL bases once and for all and be done with for a while.

Thanks,

R44
Lots of input here....I think the stability will improve with a wider 1/2T F150 type TV change out over your Tacoma; suggest the 4x4 and Off Road package with the HD Tow package. (make sure you see the Payload rating on what ever you choose) I note your using a BO shank but Equalizer ball/hitch?? Why...(just curious) Agree with Andy on the tires/wheel sizes when you decide to upgrade your TV, what ever you get. Good luck and keep us posted!
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Old 03-17-2019, 03:09 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnTF View Post
. . . What most forget is the next , when the weight capacity goes up - SO DOES the braking - getting the truck & trailer going is less important - THE CONTROL & STOPPING !!!
If you are going to compromise your capacity for comfort - I do not want to be on the road with you
Quote:
Originally Posted by james.mileur View Post
JohnTF, jfmi, do you believe a (real) TV rating is based on stopping/ controlling a TT with no TT brakes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnTF View Post
Where does that come from ?
I was only talking about how the capacity of any vehicle is rated .
And what the factors involved are , you are jumping to an assumption - that I never referred to .
Ahoy, StreamMate John TF, okay you are right, I assumed at least 3 or 4 things:
1. Your post comment, ". . . important - THE CONTROL & STOPPING !!!" seemed to have some passion behind the all caps.
2. I wasn't sure what you meant, so I assumed a question about brakes might get a few more details.
3. I assumed you knew what my shorthand, "jfmi" (just for my info) meant.
4. As a life long learner, I assumed you might have something to share I could learn about stopping and controlling that I hadn't considered.
5. I'll even go out on a limb and assume if I ask again you might have a different answer.

Perhaps my "(real)" tongue-in-cheek adjective for TV was a distraction you took personally; it was not based on something you had posted.

I'm actually interested if you have an opinion that my 6T RAM has the brakes and control to tow a 6T TT that has no brakes.

Thx, keep cool and 'stream on.

James
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Old 03-17-2019, 04:02 PM   #38
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I note your using a BO shank but Equalizer ball/hitch?? Why...(just curious)
Yea it's odd I agree!

The hitch was included by and installed/set up by dealer. As I recall the Eqalizer shank did not reach low enough to balance the load.. but that was an empty TV and AS!

When loaded I brought back in and they adjusted it by moving it up one set of holes... !

So I guess not needed in the long run....

R44
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Old 03-17-2019, 10:56 PM   #39
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Payload

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snerf View Post
Andy, thanx for the input. Being one never to miss a chance pestering an expert (I've read your papers and watched a few videos), let me ask you this question:

Assume a completely blank slate. We're looking at a 25 FC FBT. If you had $50k to spend on a TV with 0 pre-conceived opinions, what 3 TVs would you pick in rank order?

The only conditions are no German nor English vehicles. My wife has a small MB C class and doesn't want a bigger model. While I know you love your Jag, that's a bit too much for me.

So that basically means US or Japanese. Also, wife is deputy counsel at a major insurance firm, so no playing on the GVWR margins no matter how persuasive your argument.

From your response it sounds like you like the F150 Sport that comes with Scab 6.5' box, 20" passenger tires and 145" wheelbase. In 2wd, max tow payload is around 1,600 lbs.

Is that enough with 500 lbs of passengers (2), hitch and gear? What do people normally run 25' at? I know GVWR is 7,300 lbs - what is avg GVW and TW?

Of your top 3 picks, do any/all need your special ball/shank weld mods to shorten/strengthen run?

I've got my notepad out awaiting your verdict.
You sure about the payload of 1600? My
2015 Loaded Lariat with sunroof 4x4 F150 V8 SuperCab 6.5 ft bed has a sticker payload of 2031 lbs. Do you lose payload
With Max Tow package?
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Old 03-17-2019, 11:05 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by james.mileur View Post
Ahoy, StreamMate John TF, okay you are right, I assumed at least 3 or 4 things:
1. Your post comment, ". . . important - THE CONTROL & STOPPING !!!" seemed to have some passion behind the all caps.
2. I wasn't sure what you meant, so I assumed a question about brakes might get a few more details.
3. I assumed you knew what my shorthand, "jfmi" (just for my info) meant.
4. As a life long learner, I assumed you might have something to share I could learn about stopping and controlling that I hadn't considered.
5. I'll even go out on a limb and assume if I ask again you might have a different answer.

Perhaps my "(real)" tongue-in-cheek adjective for TV was a distraction you took personally; it was not based on something you had posted.

I'm actually interested if you have an opinion that my 6T RAM has the brakes and control to tow a 6T TT that has no brakes.

Thx, keep cool and 'stream on.

James

Any car / truck has a capacity unloaded & loaded , then most will also have a towing capacity .
Many things are part of this , tires , brakes , axial's , suspension .
Each having there own individual ratings and these are combined to make common weight ratings 1/4 ton , 1/2 ton , 3/4 ton etc.
typically trucks - if you were a shop and ding repair , you would find the variety of the parts / system above make up 2-3 classes of ratings light & heavy 1/2T , light & heavy 3/4 , over time [ decades ] most American manufactures may have 3 rates / or combinations of parts / systems in each weight class .
As an example , a heavy duty 1/2T would have 5 lug wheels , higher rated tires - but not 10 ply .
Then a light duty 3/4T would have 8 lug wheels but a 1/2T axial & upgraded brakes from 9" to 10" , and still not have 10 ply tires .
Point being a the parts vary separately to build the class of truck .
Anybody that has done a lot of repair knows to ID - identify each of the parts , again example 8 , 9, or 10 inch brakes for the same truck .
All of this give control & breaking performance = control , STOPPING - capitol letters to emphasize that it is most important to be able to control & stop your truck & trailer - then it is to get it going
Relative to " your shorthand " its your shorthand , it yours , so you have to define ?
Like T6 Ram , I do not know what a T6 , but figure a Ram is referring to a Dodge pickup truck Model Ram .
With regards to your truck stopping a trailer without brakes , the 1st thing is the laws of the state your driving in , they usually state that at a certain weight and or size ITS THAT STATES LAW you have to have trailer brakes .
2nd all things are relative - will your truck spot your trailer , without trailer brakes .
Well obviously it depends on how big of brakes your truck came with - how loaded either or both the truck & trailer are .
So the truck will stop the trailer , how short a distance it will come to a stop , depends on all the variables above .
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85 Excella , 31' , electric brakes , R. twin [ would like it to be a single ] , future upgrades , composting toilet [ replace black water tank with a 2nd fresh ] , solar power , instant hot water heater .
Tow 94 Dodge Ram , 4x4 , Cummins , AT .
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