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Old 01-08-2019, 04:06 PM   #41
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Steamy1: Toyota engineers say to never overload the rear axles, yet at a major auto show that I attended three years ago, the Toyota engineer reported they have specifically over engineered the Tundra vehicle to safely withstand a 20% over load per axle. Your occasional 150lbs rear axle overload is actually insignificant to the vehicle design.

In general, it is always good practice to travel within payload specifications. I have since dropped weight, by going to a lighter toolbox, never transport firewood, and always travel with the grey and black tanks 100% empty, and the fresh water tank less than 20% full.
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Old 01-08-2019, 05:17 PM   #42
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carid.com had aftermarket mirrors for my truck. They have them for Tundras 2017 and older last I looked.
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Old 01-08-2019, 05:23 PM   #43
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This is the Tundra with the McKesh tow mirrors with convex spots on both sides. Around $150. Purchase on the Hensley Hitch website.

My Tundra is my daily driver. Over 100K on my 2014-mostly going to work. I drive it around town and like it in traffic. The roll-down full rear window is so awesome on the highway--no hair blowing in my face, no sunscreen, lots of fresh air.
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Old 01-08-2019, 06:53 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Martee View Post
Steamy1: Toyota engineers say to never overload the rear axles, yet at a major auto show that I attended three years ago, the Toyota engineer reported they have specifically over engineered the Tundra vehicle to safely withstand a 20% over load per axle. Your occasional 150lbs rear axle overload is actually insignificant to the vehicle design.

In general, it is always good practice to travel within payload specifications. I have since dropped weight, by going to a lighter toolbox, never transport firewood, and always travel with the grey and black tanks 100% empty, and the fresh water tank less than 20% full.
thank you for the suggestions and reassurance.
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Old 01-08-2019, 06:58 PM   #45
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I posted these statistics in another thread. But it's just as relevant here. Consider the following:

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Originally Posted by pteck View Post
Toyota Tundra - 10.5"
F150 - 9.75"
Nissan Titan XD - 9.84"
Nissan Titan - 8.5"
You know what else uses a 10.5" ring gear? F250 and F350s. You can count on your Toyota to be overbuilt and underrated. This carries throughout the car architecture and design.
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Old 01-08-2019, 09:44 PM   #46
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Yeah, you would think when you get the towing package, it would include towing mirrors.
Don't think Toyota is the only one that doesn't include tow mirrors with the tow package. Ford has two separate tow packages, and neither of them include tow mirrors.
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Old 01-08-2019, 10:53 PM   #47
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Steamy1: Toyota engineers say to never overload the rear axles, yet at a major auto show that I attended three years ago, the Toyota engineer reported they have specifically over engineered the Tundra vehicle to safely withstand a 20% over load per axle. Your occasional 150lbs rear axle overload is actually insignificant to the vehicle design.

In general, it is always good practice to travel within payload specifications. I have since dropped weight, by going to a lighter toolbox, never transport firewood, and always travel with the grey and black tanks 100% empty, and the fresh water tank less than 20% full.
All axles can withstand an overload the design safety factor is certainly more than 20%.
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Old 01-09-2019, 05:43 AM   #48
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I am a mechanical engineer and prior owner of a Tundra truck. I own a 27í FC FB and found that it overloaded my Tundra. We do travel with a lot in the bed as we like to boondock. Does Toyota use a safety factor when doing their design....most certainly. Do you know what it is? No! Part of that safety factor is due to both material and process variation. If you are slightly over on payload, I would not worry about it. However, why worry about it or limit yourself? Get a truck that has adequate payload.
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Old 01-09-2019, 06:02 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by pteck View Post
I posted these statistics in another thread. But it's just as relevant here. Consider the following:



You know what else uses a 10.5" ring gear? F250 and F350s. You can count on your Toyota to be overbuilt and underrated. This carries throughout the car architecture and design.
My 350 has a 10.8" I believe they all do (as of '17) light weight 250 still 10.5"

Still impressive for the Tundra, I'm just clarifying.
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Old 01-09-2019, 06:09 AM   #50
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I am a mechanical engineer and prior owner of a Tundra truck. I own a 27’ FC FB and found that it overloaded my Tundra. We do travel with a lot in the bed as we like to boondock. Does Toyota use a safety factor when doing their design....most certainly. Do you know what it is? No! Part of that safety factor is due to both material and process variation. If you are slightly over on payload, I would not worry about it. However, why worry about it or limit yourself? Get a truck that has adequate payload.
Not directing at you, please take no offense, your post just made me think of it.

Question for the engineering types: This safety factor that is built into things, is it a "factor" for the day you buy it or for the life expectancy? How much of that safety factor do you suppose is left on a vehicle with 250,000 miles, when considering all worn parts having to work in conjunction with each other? So if pushing the limits in the beginning at what progressive rate will you run out of "factor"? How often does one need to replace the the vehicle to maintain the close margin to save money in the beginning?
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Old 01-09-2019, 10:13 AM   #51
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I am a mechanical engineer and prior owner of a Tundra truck. I own a 27í FC FB and found that it overloaded my Tundra. We do travel with a lot in the bed as we like to boondock. Does Toyota use a safety factor when doing their design....most certainly. Do you know what it is? No! Part of that safety factor is due to both material and process variation. If you are slightly over on payload, I would not worry about it. However, why worry about it or limit yourself? Get a truck that has adequate payload.
It would be worthwhile to discuss payload and (over) payload handling from safety factor as I believe we're mixing the two.

A lot of what you're describing is the specific stock spring rates fitted to the Tundra. They are soft. Meant for stock payload and biased to achieve a good unladen ride. It also has to walk the balance of maintaining articulation for off-road and off-road ride quality.

Said another way, spring rates is the one thing that has to walk a balance (compromise) between the dichotomy between ride quality vs load bearing.

It's the same reason why 3/4 and 1-ton trucks get knocked for such bad ride quality. They are biased to load bearing duty.

Tundra's (and every 1/2 ton) can easily be augmented for more laden stability and handling by upgrading the springs. Even easier is to add air bags. It won't compromise durability. And will add a safety factor as the handling when will be greatly improved.

When one opts for whatever potential optional "extra payload" a factory or upfitter offers, it's exactly what these companies add. Consumers can do the same.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:10 PM   #52
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Here is something else to think about in regards to axle ratings. I will leave aside GVWR, since it is more about taxes, licenses, and so on IMO, and focus on the actual axle rating.

Many are equating the official axle rating with the strength of the component. Strength is part of it (larger trucks have heavier duty axles) but so are spring rates (as pteck mentions). Another factor not being discussed is the use case.

Mercedes publish two separate axle ratings for the same vehicle (GL and other Mercedes SUVs, often used for towing) depending on whether one is towing or not. If being used for towing, they advise owners that the published axle rating is then higher. Let's think about that. What is different with towing? Isn't weight simply weight? The most obvious, is that speeds are generally lower than when not towing, and Mercedes references this in their manuals. Lower speed makes sense for tire ratings, due to heat buildup, but this is an axle rating under discussion, not a tire rating. Is heat the limit with an axle rating? BMW added finned covers to their diffs to address an series of differential failures on one model of SUV that had a smaller differential, spec'd in combination with a base model smaller engine offered in that (overseas) market. The small engine could tow the rated load, but the small diff that came with it failed in more cases than were acceptable.

So if heat is the common limit, it would apply to other manufacturers as well.

Other than heat, what has changed that allows Mercedes to apply a blanket higher rating to the same component, but only when a trailer is connected?

Seems to me that apart from heat, they are either trading off ultimate durability (eg, a million mile axle may not run as long), or they are using axle ratings to manage issues related to vehicle dynamic stability. That makes the most sense to me; they know that the vehicle can handle a certain load, and at higher speeds they hit a stability limit, but when towing, they are prepared to say the vehicle is fine, since it isn't going as fast.

We don't know the answers to all these questions, but I raise them because axle ratings are being discussed through a lens of strength and safety factors, when it can also be driven by durability, heat related to extended high speed operation, and a myriad of other things

I wouldn't worry about exceeding an axle load by a small amount, but I also wouldn't drive the vehicle at top speed with that load. It is just common sense.
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Old 01-09-2019, 06:20 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteck View Post
It would be worthwhile to discuss payload and (over) payload handling from safety factor as I believe we're mixing the two.



A lot of what you're describing is the specific stock spring rates fitted to the Tundra. They are soft. Meant for stock payload and biased to achieve a good unladen ride. It also has to walk the balance of maintaining articulation for off-road and off-road ride quality.



Said another way, spring rates is the one thing that has to walk a balance (compromise) between the dichotomy between ride quality vs load bearing.



It's the same reason why 3/4 and 1-ton trucks get knocked for such bad ride quality. They are biased to load bearing duty.



Tundra's (and every 1/2 ton) can easily be augmented for more laden stability and handling by upgrading the springs. Even easier is to add air bags. It won't compromise durability. And will add a safety factor as the handling when will be greatly improved.



When one opts for whatever potential optional "extra payload" a factory or upfitter offers, it's exactly what these companies add. Consumers can do the same.


There is no way to increase payload on a truck. Changing springs and adding airbags does NOT increase payload.
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Old 01-09-2019, 06:51 PM   #54
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There is no way to increase payload on a truck.
That is not true. There is no way to increase the manufacturer’s rated payload, it was set at time of manufacture. There are a myriad of ways to increase actual or effective payload after that manufacturing process.

Think of it a different way. Take an HD truck with truck tires. Replace them with lighter and lower rated tires for increased driver comfort. Payload is reduced, even though rated payload doesn’t change. Now buy a trailer, decide you want to load the truck up, and put heavy duty tires back on. You just increased payload.
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Old 01-09-2019, 06:56 PM   #55
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I shouldn't do this but what the hey.....I increased my payload.....I bought an F250
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Old 01-09-2019, 08:09 PM   #56
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That is not true. There is no way to increase the manufacturerís rated payload, it was set at time of manufacture. There are a myriad of ways to increase actual or effective payload after that manufacturing process.

Think of it a different way. Take an HD truck with truck tires. Replace them with lighter and lower rated tires for increased driver comfort. Payload is reduced, even though rated payload doesnít change. Now buy a trailer, decide you want to load the truck up, and put heavy duty tires back on. You just increased payload.


Yes, you can reduce payload and then reverse what you did to gain payload but you cannot add to payload to the manufactures stated payload without reducing the vehicle weight. If you want to rip out the back seat or remove your sunroof, you can add payload. Adding new springs or airbags does not add payload!
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Old 01-09-2019, 09:09 PM   #57
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Yes, you can reduce payload and then reverse what you did to gain payload but you cannot add to payload to the manufactures stated payload without reducing the vehicle weight. If you want to rip out the back seat or remove your sunroof, you can add payload. Adding new springs or airbags does not add payload!
I agree it doesn't (automatically) add payload. It MAY add payload.

It comes down to identifying the weakest link, and not all may have the inclination, resources or ability to do that. When I have identified the weakest link on a vehicle that was limited by the specification of a component (tire, spring, etc) then upgrading that component increases the useful payload. Not the manufacturer's certified payload, it is usually too involved to go back and change the original official GVWR or payload sticker, although it can be done, it is just a hassle to do it. What is usually changed is the effective payload. This work has involved running the parts consist of vehicles to identify what is different between two vehicles. If the only thing causing an artificially lower payload is possible to change economically, then it can be done. It can also be done by an upfitter, who perhaps installs a special body and needs a heavier GVWR, so they beef up the base truck and apply for a new VIN, which comes with a new GVWR label. It is a process governed by the federal regulations.

The best guidance on this is from the companies certified as upfitters for specific manufacturers.

Sometimes an easier way of doing it is to take the order number for a higher GVWR option that the vehicle in question doesn't have, and run that through the manufacturer to get the parts consist of the changes (adds and deletes). That gives you your shopping list. We did that with one manufacturer that I worked with, I don't know if all support it. You need a crossover reference from sales consists to parts consists, they are different systems usually.

A pretty typical example is if someone wants to install a snowplow and doesn't have that option on his vehicle. If the axles are the specification, then changing the other components that were part of the snowplow option can increase the useful rating to the snowplow rating. Often it is just springs.

Here is another example. My (European) vehicle has a standard payload sticker, for all configurations of a certain model. I wondered if it would be reduced for my specific vehicle, which was heavily optioned. My door sticker said the same as the standard payload, higher than I expected given the panoramic sunroof, active steering, etc, etc. So I wanted to know how they did that. Turned out they designed the vehicle for the heaviest GVWR, and used that GVWR for the most heavily optioned version. Every other version had a different GVWR, to maintain the same payload. When I looked at the parts book for coil springs, I had to pick the option package to get the right spring ratings for the correct ride height. I think it would have been easy to put the springs on for the heaviest optioned version, to increase payload, but didn't have a need to. It would have been the same as buying the heavily optioned vehicle, and removing some of the options.

This type of modification after purchase doesn't just apply to weight ratings. I had a vehicle that came with a speed limiter. It was set for faster than I wanted to go, but that is a side story. Some versions of the same vehicle didn't have the limiter. Turned out that it was due to tire speed ratings. Some dealers were happy to go into the vehicle software and turn off the speed limiter, but not unless they could see that you had first changed the tires, which were the limiting factor.
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Old 01-09-2019, 10:17 PM   #58
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There is no way to increase payload on a truck. Changing springs and adding airbags does NOT increase payload.
You should get out more.

I'm telling you it does change the effective payload handling capacity. You're conflating regulation, which is very hard and expensive to navigate to certify for larger payloads, vs engineering ability to augment for more effective payload.

Upfitters do this all the time and are able to engineer (often just springs and perhaps 3rd member ratio) and certify for higher payloads.

As an extreme example. Consider the armored car upfitters. They often take regular SUVs and trucks to almost 4tons. Upfitters like these do it all the time.

We're giving you a hint at what can be done.
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Old 01-09-2019, 10:36 PM   #59
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There is no way to increase payload on a truck. Changing springs and adding airbags does NOT increase payload.
You canít change what the sticker says anymore than you can change manufacturer stated horsepower, top speed, etc. but you CAN modify a vehicle to carry more, handle better, etc. End users and owners do it all the time. Adding heavier springs and different axles is only one example. Many of us have the knowhow and ability to do upgrades.

Many mods are done to address known shortcomings of the vehicle. There is a good knowledge base of modifications for any known vehicle. The Ram HD, for example, has known issues that can be fixed with available parts. Another example is the 6.2 GM and 6.0 Ford diesels everyone loves to hate. Thereís nothing wrong with doing this. Thereís a big difference between manufacturing vehicles for sale, and owner/aftermarket mods. This stuff has been going on since Frontenac heads were being put on Model T Fords.
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Old 01-10-2019, 05:44 AM   #60
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You should get out more.

I'm telling you it does change the effective payload handling capacity. You're conflating regulation, which is very hard and expensive to navigate to certify for larger payloads, vs engineering ability to augment for more effective payload.

Upfitters do this all the time and are able to engineer (often just springs and perhaps 3rd member ratio) and certify for higher payloads.

As an extreme example. Consider the armored car upfitters. They often take regular SUVs and trucks to almost 4tons. Upfitters like these do it all the time.

We're giving you a hint at what can be done.
So how would you increase an axle rating?
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