Towing with an electric vehicle cross country and back

[idoco]

Originally Posted by GOUSC

To the OP,

Thanks for sharing you towing information. Like others have said, someone has to try this first and build on the information from there. I’m interested in your Bowles dry and loaded weight. My Globetrotter is 6,600 lbs dry and around 7,350 loaded. Where is your weight in comparison to that and, if lighter, would the heavier weight materially affect your towing specs?

Also, what is the battery life on your TV and what is the current cost for replacement?

I agree with others that nothing is really free and I’m not ready to take the plunge yet but the technology is interesting and am looking forward to how pioneers such as yourself are able to make this a viable alternative to the ICE.

Our Bowlus is 2500 lbs empty. 3500 lbs max.

Weight isn't the biggest factor. Aerodynamics are a much bigger factor. There are discussions on the Tesla forums comparing trailers.

In general people who tow Airstreams with electric vehicles report a 50% reduction in range compared to not towing. This seems to be in line with the MPG decrease that you see when towing an Airstream with a gas vehicle.

We just sold our nine year old Tesla. Had about 100k miles on it. It still had better than 95%+ of the range it had when new. FYI...Tesla Model S/X battery packs have an eight year warranty, irrespective of mileage.

Cost of replacement of a battery pack out of warranty varies depending on Model, year, size, etc. Using third party vendors it can be as inexpensive as $5k or as expensive as $20k. For comparison I had catalytic converters on an ICE fail out of warranty. I think it was just less than $5k to replace.

I'm almost sorry I used the $0/free part as a teaser in my original post. More important was that the cost of charging would have only been 40% of the cost of gas (using $0.35/kWh as the supercharger rate and $5/gal as the gas rate). When charging at home, which is 99% of our charging when not traveling, the rate is even better (~$0.13/kWh).

[mikeinca]

Thanks to the OP for relating his EV towing story. Although it's not there yet for everyone, the electric towing experience seems to be on its way to becoming practical for more and more RV campers.

As has been pointed out, almost nothing manmade is free and the cost of charging an EV is surely being absorbed somewhere along the line. Still, the total costs across the board are demonstrably less than fueling an ICE vehicle and regardless of whether the EV's charging costs are hidden or not, it feels pretty darn good not to have to shell out $100 or more for fossil fuel to fill up the "tank".

[Capt who]

How do the road tax get paid if you don't buy fuel?

[skyguyscott]

There have been a series of very long and involved threads on this forum regarding gas tax on EVs.

Here.

Here.

Here

and here, for starters

The short answer is that at the moment, there is no explicit gas tax paid by owners of EVs for their EV driving. You can consider that an incentive, tax break, oversight, or cheat -- but rest assured, folks in government have their eye on it and are crafting various ways to collect their cut -- of that, we can be as sure as death itself.

And, PS, if you think all the gas tax revenue goes to road repair in the US, you haven't really been paying attention to your state budget allocations...and this despite the increasing costs of road maintainence even though the tax hasn't kept up with inflation, and despite the increasingly bad condition of roads and bridges across the country.

But in the interests of keeping this thread on topic, follow the links to discuss EV fuel tax there.

[GOUSC]

Originally Posted by idoco

Our Bowlus is 2500 lbs empty. 3500 lbs max.

Weight isn't the biggest factor. Aerodynamics are a much bigger factor. There are discussions on the Tesla forums comparing trailers.

In general people who tow Airstreams with electric vehicles report a 50% reduction in range compared to not towing. This seems to be in line with the MPG decrease that you see when towing an Airstream with a gas vehicle.

We just sold our nine year old Tesla. Had about 100k miles on it. It still had better than 95%+ of the range it had when new. FYI...Tesla Model S/X battery packs have an eight year warranty, irrespective of mileage.



Cost of replacement of a battery pack out of warranty varies depending on Model, year, size, etc. Using third party vendors it can be as inexpensive as $5k or as expensive as $20k. For comparison I had catalytic converters on an ICE fail out of warranty. I think it was just less than $5k to replace.

I'm almost sorry I used the $0/free part as a teaser in my original post. More important was that the cost of charging would have only been 40% of the cost of gas (using $0.35/kWh as the supercharger rate and $5/gal as the gas rate). When charging at home, which is 99% of our charging when not traveling, the rate is even better (~$0.13/kWh).

Thanks for the info. Retaining 95% of battery life after 9 years is impressive and I’m guessing this will only get better. With my diesel I get around 21 mpg w/o towing and 13-14 towing so a little better than gas mpg bit over the last 3 mos diesel is costing more so probably a wash compared to gas.

For my Globetrotter I’m guessing my question shouldn’t have been about towing but rear axle weight capacity. That seemed to be the critical factor for me in going with a 3/4 ton vs a 1/2 ton. I’m sure the EV’s will get there with more range in the future and I can definitely see them working for non-towing. I’ve got my Globetrotter where I like it right now. When they get the EV’s better on range and can accommodate the rear axle weight then it will definitely be a consideration.

Thanks again for your information.

[LET51]

Here is a novel idea. Let’s do away with any government rebates for EV’S ( my tax money) to determine the true cost of an EV. This from the local municipalities free charging stations to state and federal rebates. Make the owners pay for the total cost then come back and report. Also road isuage is going to be collected wether thru gasoline tax or mileage usage tax.

[jokila]

Originally Posted by jcl

I think the claim was no funds expended for fuel.

And if one has free lifetime charging, then no funds expended for electricity.

Not sure what Tesla's profitability has to do with this trip report. But for reference, they have been profitable since 2019, a little later if you exclude regulatory credits, and they reported $3.2 billion profit in Q1 2022

Power is unlikely to stay at $0.11 per kWh, but then fuel prices are unlikely to stay low as well.

The claim of no fuel costs is useless for a comparison of the real costs for everyone else. That was some big humblebragging by the OP.

What I would like to see is what was the cost if it were going to be paid by the average owner using the OP's vehicle. I am assuming during those charge ups that they were given some record of the amount of "fuel" needed to top off and thus a cost that could be used to figure out the true benefit of EV ownership.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by LET51

Here is a novel idea. Let’s do away with any government rebates for EVs ( my tax money) to determine the true cost of an EV. This from the local municipalities free charging stations to state and federal rebates. Make the owners pay for the total cost then come back and report. Also road usage is going to be collected whether thru gasoline tax or mileage usage tax.

That isn't novel at all IMO. Here to report that our EV was not eligible for any federal, provincial, or municipal rebates. Our charging point installation got a small grant from the utility company, so they can sell more power to us. I support road use charges for all vehicles, predicated on vehicle weight, distance travelled, and special congestion zones, but this one will be an uphill fight.

[israndy]

Originally Posted by idoco

We just sold our nine year old Tesla.

Was that the car you towed with, or your original Tesla?

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

I admire your courage in taking a EV cross country towing.

[...]

Every day I see stories on two topics. First, "The power grid is over stressed, rolling blackouts coming this summer." and then, "Electric Vehicle sales at an all time high."

It's not AT ALL hard to take an EV cross country, towing shrinks your range, but means you don't have to find food, you can eat in the RV while you charge.

Finding power is easy, it's frickin' everywhere. I have plugged my original EV in at the lamp posts in the mall, back when I got my first EV in 2009. And there is still a ton of free power, shops will put in chargers to attract shoppers, can't do that with gasoline, although Safeways have tried.

As to blackouts I think you are confusing EVs with Air Conditioning or Electric Heaters. EVs can draw a LOT of energy (I can charge my car at 1000 MPH when the battery is empty) but they don't need to on a daily basis. I typically charge 3% a day. Others with long commutes have offices that offer free charging during peak solar.

When we come home from work and everyone is turning on their AC and Oven to make dinner the EV sits in the garage waiting for the rates to go down and then they charge at night when power companies would sometimes give away electricity if it meant they didn't have to cycle off their Baseload Generators. These are very powerful and efficient but they lose all that if you turn them off. Smaller Peaker Plants can by cycled in if needed during the day when there isn't enough coming from the Baseload Generators, not very efficient and expensive to run, that's why power companies are moving to giant battery projects. Capture all that solar and wind when it's happening and you can later use it instead of spinning up a Peaker Plant.

Power companies often will turn on large wasteful items to burn off excess power JUST so they don't have to turn off the Baseload overnight. In the not to distant future power companies will partner with EV owners to initiate a charge when there is too much power and to stop a charge that isn't needed if there isn't enough power. So EVs will actually make blackouts LESS likely. Tesla is currently petitioning Texas to allow individual homes with solar and battery to negotiate best rates for sending power to the grid. Homeowners will get a break on paying for their solar and Texas won't have too much or too little power coming from solar generation.

[mikeinca]

Originally Posted by LET51

Here is a novel idea. Let’s do away with any government rebates for EV’S ( my tax money) to determine the true cost of an EV. This from the local municipalities free charging stations to state and federal rebates. Make the owners pay for the total cost then come back and report. Also road isuage is going to be collected wether thru gasoline tax or mileage usage tax.

To be factual, the IRS allows a tax credit for an EV purchase, not a rebate. That means I get to keep more of MY money. It's really no different than any of the other credits and deductions that the government allows and I'm guessing most people here take advantage of. BTW, for a really novel tax savings idea, we could eliminate oil and gas subsidies that cost taxpayers around $20 billion a year, far more than the EV credit.

FWIW, I would love to see towing with an EV become practical for more people and although it wouldn't work for me at this time, I applaud those who have found a way to make it work for them.

[Rfriebele]

I'm not at all against EV's or towing with em but I think it requires some strategic navigation..here's what scares me..take your EV anywhere near a huge metropolitan city and get stuck in a 3 or 4 hour traffic jam which is extremely prevalent these days. I have a kid in CA and I can't tell you how many dead EVs I've seen on the side of the road cause they got stuck in the 405 "parking lot"....

[mikeinca]

Originally Posted by Rfriebele

I'm not at all against EV's or towing with em but I think it requires some strategic navigation..here's what scares me..take your EV anywhere near a huge metropolitan city and get stuck in a 3 or 4 hour traffic jam which is extremely prevalent these days. I have a kid in CA and I can't tell you how many dead EVs I've seen on the side of the road cause they got stuck in the 405 "parking lot"....

That's interesting. We have a ton of EV's here and I've almost never seen one stranded in our infamous Bay Area traffic; we've not had that problem with ours.

For an EV to be stranded due to an unexpected traffic jam, the driver must have left home with a very low SOC. Given the size of a typical EV battery pack and the fact that the energy required to operate the vehicle's HVAC and ancillaries is negligible compared to that required to move the vehicle, an EV can sit stationary for hours without draining the batteries. That's why some EV's are suitable for use as home backup systems.

For everything but the longest trips in an EV just a bit of common sense, not sophisticated planning and navigational skills, is required.

[propchef]

Originally Posted by Rfriebele

I'm not at all against EV's or towing with em but I think it requires some strategic navigation..here's what scares me..take your EV anywhere near a huge metropolitan city and get stuck in a 3 or 4 hour traffic jam which is extremely prevalent these days. I have a kid in CA and I can't tell you how many dead EVs I've seen on the side of the road cause they got stuck in the 405 "parking lot"....

I live in EV central (SF Bay area) and I’ve never seen this. Not once.

[trikdacy]

EV 's while improving, do not prevent pollution, but only move the source of the pollution from the tailpipe to the smokestack.

[mikeinca]

Originally Posted by trikdacy

EV 's while improving, do not prevent pollution, but only move the source of the pollution from the tailpipe to the smokestack.

A) Emissions are more effectively controlled at the source of power production than at the level of the individual vehicle.

B) Large scale power production from renewable sources continues to increase as a percentage of total production. ICE vehicles don't/can't generate power from renewables.

C) For a growing number of owners (like myself) EV's can be charged almost exclusively with electricity that they generate from their own pollution free solar array. I absolutely cannot make my own diesel.

[LanSluder]

Very interesting post. Thanks. To change the focus a bit, if you've owned an Airstream in the past, how do you compare AS with your Bowlus? (Other than the upfront cost, I mean!)

[WellSaid11]

Originally Posted by LanSluder

Very interesting post. Thanks. To change the focus a bit, if you've owned an Airstream in the past, how do you compare AS with your Bowlus? (Other than the upfront cost, I mean!)

Interesting question, interesting TV and interesting Bowlus! I guess I have to ask though - why is the thread even here?

A Bowlus is not an AS and an AS is not a Bowlus. I have seen Site Admin and Moderators get on people for being off topic, and this isn't an AS post. Proabably no different than the now-infamous "F-150 Lightning" thread or the soon-to-be-infamous Rivian thread maybe?

Should it be in the "off-topic" section? Just askin'!

[idoco]

Originally Posted by LanSluder

Very interesting post. Thanks. To change the focus a bit, if you've owned an Airstream in the past, how do you compare AS with your Bowlus? (Other than the upfront cost, I mean!)

Looked at AS before buying the Bowlus. Have not owned an AS prior to the Bowlus.

In this thread there is a good discussion by Bowlus owners who formerly owned an AS.

[skyguyscott]

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

Interesting question, interesting TV and interesting Bowlus! I guess I have to ask though - why is the thread even here?

A Bowlus is not an AS and an AS is not a Bowlus. I have seen Site Admin and Moderators get on people for being off topic, and this isn't an AS post. Proabably no different than the now-infamous "F-150 Lightning" thread or the soon-to-be-infamous Rivian thread maybe?

Should it be in the "off-topic" section? Just askin'!

The site here has a wealth of information related to aluminum trailers besides AS, including Avion, Spartan, Bowlus, et. al. -- many share common issues, common solutions, interesting deviations.

Bowlus in particular has a special place in AS history, as it is the company Wally left to start AS, and there is Bowlus DNA in the whole line.

Arguably, many of these "vintage kin" trailers sported superior features or construction, but none were as successful commercially or survived as long as AS.

And (except for the far superior build quality and design integrity)there is probably far more commonality between the AS TT and that Bowlus than, say, the (nest), BaseCamp, Atlas, Class B, Motorhome, Sky Deck, Interstate...

And, personally, I do enjoy the totally retro, totally art-deco/flash gordon body style. If only I could afford one...

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

Interesting question, interesting TV and interesting Bowlus! I guess I have to ask though - why is the thread even here?

A Bowlus is not an AS and an AS is not a Bowlus. I have seen Site Admin and Moderators get on people for being off topic, and this isn't an AS post. Proabably no different than the now-infamous "F-150 Lightning" thread or the soon-to-be-infamous Rivian thread maybe?

Should it be in the "off-topic" section? Just askin'!

Good question...but you see all kinds of folks "chiming in" on the AS Forum these days; many who don't own an AS anymore. Some have never owned nor even towed an AS...

I never see any "negative" comments on making the switch to their SOB, for some reason...that would be admitting they made a mistake, right? (and we all know, these "non AS owners" are not bias toward their point of view.) Note, their contribution seems to be to push their point of view...life goes on...

Other than Andy, not seen anyone posting on their EV experiences towing a 25' or larger AS with an EV, across country thru places like Moab up thru Utah, WY (thru GTNP/Yellowstone)
The recent posts here talk about no issues with charging stations...
Israndy post: It's not AT ALL hard to take an EV cross country, towing shrinks your range, but means you don't have to find food, you can eat in the RV while you charge.

Finding power is easy, it's frickin' everywhere. I have plugged my original EV in at the lamp posts in the mall, back when I got my first EV in 2009. And there is still a ton of free power, shops will put in chargers to attract shoppers, can't do that with gasoline, although Safeways have tried.
Taking an EV across country is not the point here on the AS Forum, right? Again I ask, have "you" towed a larger AS with your EV? Have you taken it across the US thru Utah, WY, MT? When you do find charging stations, do you have to unhook your AS to get to the power? These are the concerns we all are looking to understand...but, I suspect he did not.

All the pro-EV folks here, but no one regularly towing their larger AS where many of us still like to go...is my point. Fuel is expensive these days; but so is an EV and the restrictions on the way we "ICE owners" who do tow AS's...the ability to tow for 250-300 miles thru TX to get to the Northern states, without excess detours to get fuel and having to unhook is not there yet...I know you can plan the route, but waiting 30 min in line or longer to take a 30 min charge and the inconvenience of unhooking in to get your charge after perhaps driving out of your way to get that charge, is not attractive when towing a larger AS...