Towing with a '92 Buick Roadmaster wagon?

[t walgamuth]

We sold our excella 35 last year and recently bought one of those Award trailers which only weighs 4200#. I am thinkinf of selling off my dodge with cummins and going to a less valuable vehicle. Is anybody out there towing with one of those large gm wagons of this era?

I found a clean one on the web with a tow packag, 8 passengers and a beautiful leather interior.

I am wondering what kind of fuel economy they will actually get? it has teh 293 rear end so it might not do too badly solo. I used to get 8 towing with my suburban with 5.7, but it ran a 373 rear end, so maybe the car would do better.

[willyd]

I do not know the gas mileage question - but would like to see pictures of the tv and the Airstream.

[Wingeezer]

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

We sold our excella 35 last year and recently bought one of those Award trailers which only weighs 4200#. I am thinkinf of selling off my dodge with cummins and going to a less valuable vehicle. Is anybody out there towing with one of those large gm wagons of this era?

I found a clean one on the web with a tow packag, 8 passengers and a beautiful leather interior.

I am wondering what kind of fuel economy they will actually get? it has teh 293 rear end so it might not do too badly solo. I used to get 8 towing with my suburban with 5.7, but it ran a 373 rear end, so maybe the car would do better.

Can't comment on the TV, but hope you enjoy the Award.

We have owned one for the last nine years or so and it served us very well.
Ours was a 1993 27ft. twin bed version.

It had a light wt. of 3950# and towed like a dream - interstate speeds of 70mph+ no problem at all.

We towed it first with a Safari Minivan which had more than enough power but did get into mild sway problems due to a relatively short wheelbase.

Nevertheless we made several trips across the USA with that setup before switching to a Sierra 1/2 ton 4x4 extended cab. As a tow vehicle, it was far superior and made for a much more relaxing ride - its wheelbase was maybe 24"longer.

The only thing I would really keep an eye on with the Award is the integrity of the caulking. For some reason Awards are very prone to water leaks and this can cause extensive and costly damage.

Particulary vulnerable spots are the front lower corners and that big front window.

We did also have problems with the bathroom skylight and the back wall, where you need to pay close attention to the caulking around all the exterior lights.

If you sight down the side walls on the outside and see any large irregularity on the fibreglass surface (bulging out) that will be an indication of delamination due to water infiltration.

Another thing to watch is sagging of the sidewalls. The cross-braces that come out perpendicular to the main frame members are inadequate to properly support the sidewalls and they will drop - especially in the 27, 30, and 34 ft models.

The factory has a "fix" that they install extra sidewall supports fore and aft of the wheels - about $1000 installed as I recall. Some owners have had their own made up locally.

There is a "Yahoo Group" of Award owners where you can get lots of good info.

We finally decided to move away from our Award is it was just getting too costly to maintain - if I had the space to work on it myself, I would have kept it.

The Awards have a very nice layout and are well suited to travelling couples, they were quite expensive when first sold. The factory, only 50 miles from our home, folded up in the mid nineties, then a few years later re-opened in a much scaled down way.

They were building only maybe 20 a year, and these were only made to order. Price was 2 or 3 times what you would pay for an SOB - ind the range of $60k Can or more.

Once the Canadian Dollar came up somewhat they stopped building new trailers because most of their production had been going to the US

Last time I visited them (last Spring) they were really operating on a shoestring and only doing repair work - I doubt there were more than a half dozen employees if that.

After much searching for a replacement trailer, we determined that the Airstream was the only make that would compare for us.

I don't mean at all to be discouraging, we really loved our Award and I'm sure you will too, but just a few things to watch out for!

If I can be of any help at all, please email me!

[t walgamuth]

Thanks for the observations about the award. I have already discovered to some extent about the caulk issues. What type of caulk do you recommend to use caulking it?

If the other poster is interested in buying my dodge truck, thank you, but I am not ready to sell it just yet. If you like you can email me about it at twalgamuth@comcast.net. Its an 03 2500 cummins with the six speed manual.

[cameront120]

There are a couple of people on this site who have experience towing with the Roadmaster. Hopefully they'll chime in.

[Mikethefixit]

t walgramuth
If your are looking for another Airstream I definitely would NOT sell that truck. Thats the perfect TV . Your will not gain any fuel mileage In fact I believe You will lose.

[t walgamuth]

Originally Posted by Mikethefixit

t walgramuth
If your are looking for another Airstream I definitely would NOT sell that truck. Thats the perfect TV . Your will not gain any fuel mileage In fact I believe You will lose.

Well, I am not thinking I will buy another airstream, but you never know. I am an experienced tt person and have owned seven or eight trailers and have towed with everything from a 74 saab to suburbans (had seven of them) one ton ford van with 6.9 and gear vendors od. The Dodge is the cream of the crop of all the tow vehicles I have owned but it has drawbacks....the back seat is pretty uncomfortable and it sits so high its not that easy for an old fart like me to get in and out of.

The wagon would offer more room for grandkids too....plus I have had a soft spot for the jelly bean shape of those wagons.

[Silvertwinkie]

I towed both a 19' Bambi and a 25' Safari with the GM "B" body platform. The wagons and Cadillac Fleetwood versions have a more robust frame and both the "B and "D" drivelines are a proven drivetrain that spans at least 3 decades that I am aware of, maybe more.

That said, the granny gears (2.93) are barely enough if you will tow in any type of mountain areas. Yes it will do it, but the trans is NOT going to like it.

The vehicle you spec out came with either an LT1 5.7L or I think it was an L99 5.0L. Of course the LT1 5.7 with the 4L60e is more than up to the task, and you can basically tell just by looking at the wagon which engine it has. Dual exhaust? LT1 5.7L (detuned Corvette LT1). Mono exhaust, most likely 5.0L.

You will find between 10-12 mpg towing at speeds of about 60 mph. Faster=less MPG...slower you will get closer to 12 in the best of conditions (flat, no headwinds, etc).

The B Body platform is a solid platform and requires little over and beyond maint. The B platform is the basis for what was the 9C1 Police package found in the Caprice, Impala and Roadmaster vehicles. The "D" body is the Cadillac Fleetwood which shares many aspects of the "B" platform.

I have owned 3 "B" platform vehicles and each has been more than enough to tow whatever I threw at it. I will say that I replaced the 2.93s in my Caprice to 3.73s thinking heck I have all this power, I can easily tow 6300lbs. I found quickly that power is but one part of the equation. It was my understanding that the sedans were rated at about 5k towing and the wagons and Fleetwoods were rated slightly higher (even with the granny 2.93s). I figured that was mainly due to the fact that the Fleetwoods and wagons had more stout frames. Keep in mind though that each passenger, each stick of cargo, fuel, etc get taken off the tow capacity. For example, say the wagon has a 6k tow rating, deduct from that 6k the weight of each passenger, fuel, etc and that is what you are left with. This is a good rule of thumb for any TV, not just the wagon you are looking at.

Reader's Digest version of all this, I think you'll be fine as long as you don't overload (take too much stuff) and do little mountain towing. If mountain towing is going to be somewhat freq, then I might go to 3.42s. 3.73s are even better, but in your particular app, 3.42s would be the perfect balance. If I had to do it over again, I'd have gone 3.42s in my Caprice. In my truck I have 4.10s and would not part with them for anything, but for a passenger car that is not going to see anywhere near 8k, 3.42s would be my suggestion should you opt to upgrade the gearing.

On a side note, I added a trans temp gauge to my "B" and found that in towing at grade, with 3.73s and 6300lbs behind me, my trans got to 200 degrees. I added a second inline trans cooler and same pass got to about 185-190. I would fully suggest that you consider a trans temp gauge as I feel it is an invaluable tool to have when towing.

[Silvertwinkie]

PS- the 1996 model year was the last year for both B and D platform cars. The 1996 has the most up to date fixes and re-designed parts. 1995 is also the year they upgraded the optispark on the LT1 powered versions. If time permits, I would wholeheartedly suggest a 1996 w/LT1 over any prior model year. Oh, and don't forget to change the rear differential fluid on any 90s B or D vehicle. GM put a bad gasket on the rear diff cover that didn't let fluid easily get to the outer bearings of the drive shaft. A very easy fix that will save thousand in rear end rebuilding later.

[t walgamuth]

Thanks for the informative response. I am thinking it won't be a lot different than the 1500 suburban with gasser.

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

Thanks for the informative response. I am thinking it won't be a lot different than the 1500 suburban with gasser.

Not a whole lot. Only thing I can think of is that the Burb may have an even more robust frame than the B or D body cars, but, you are not going to be more than 6k when all said and done and I get the impression you won't be driving it like you stole it, so you should be good.

[t walgamuth]

i used to run 70 with the 35' excella towing with my cummins dodge, but I would not likely drive that fast with this setup.

[safari57]

A good friend towed a 23' Award with a '66 Impala 9 passenger Stationwagon. Non-fuel injected (Edelbrock 600cfm 4 barrel carb), 700R overdrive transmission, 396 engine. Most of the towing through the mountains of the Pacific Northwest (BC and WA). He installed disc brakes and a larger auxilary transmission cooler, used an equalizer hitch with sway control bar.

He had no issues. No overheating, gas mileage in the very low teens keeping to the speed limits up and through the various mountain passes. The pair handled well, stopped fine, no sway issues, a nice combo.

He sold the trailer due to the delamination that is consistent with these trailers (all RV's have issues regardless of manufacture, it just happens that Awards have the wall and leak issues) and has purchased a 1951 Flying Cloud.

We have seen the early 90's wagons pulling a wide variety of trailers. They are still popular as TV's and can be purchased in reasonable condition for surprisingly low dollars.

Let us know what you decide to do, and if you do go down this path having your feedback would be helpful.

Barry

[t walgamuth]

Thanks for the comments. I will be on top of the roof and wall joints with some kind of high quality caulk and will inspect and renew yearly as needed.

I am still weighing the tow vehicle situation. Probably keeping the dodge in case I decide going back to an airstream if the economic situation will accomodate it is a good way to go.

I bought the dodge new and have had zero issues of any consequence with it, and best of all know how its been taken care of.

[slowmover]

Low miles is nice, but a seventeen-year old car, IMO, needs every single hose/fastener, fluid/filter, etc, replaced. I'd replace the entire cooling system so as not to have to "get into it" numerous times. The cooling system is the most neglected of all systems, so I'd also punch out the block plugs and go into detail in cleaning out the block as much as possible.

Wiring is also a problem -- corrosion on terminations, vibration on any soldered joints, etc -- and I would not purchase an old car to tow with that this hadn't been extensively checked from end to end.

GM did NOT do such a great job on these cars as they ought to have, the penny-pincher mentality is evident.

I like them too, a lot! But towing is a whole other world from just drivin' around, and I would expect the "break-in" to have numerous instances of problems unless systems in the car are gone through separately and thoroughly. There will be a happy point, eventually.

Certainly, all the suspension and body bushings should be replaced ASAP.

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by REDNAX

Low miles is nice, but a seventeen-year old car, IMO, needs every single hose/fastener, fluid/filter, etc, replaced. I'd replace the entire cooling system so as not to have to "get into it" numerous times. The cooling system is the most neglected of all systems, so I'd also punch out the block plugs and go into detail in cleaning out the block as much as possible.

Wiring is also a problem -- corrosion on terminations, vibration on any soldered joints, etc -- and I would not purchase an old car to tow with that this hadn't been extensively checked from end to end.

GM did NOT do such a great job on these cars as they ought to have, the penny-pincher mentality is evident.

Certainly, all the suspension and body bushings should be replaced ASAP.

I have to strongly disagree. Having owned many versions of this vehicle it does not typically need major work.

My current 1996 still has the original radiator and heater hoses. Body bushings even on my 1980 were factory and in full working order up until I donated the car in 2005.

This is one car that GM did do right. Sure it could have had some better components, but in the end the B and D platforms, if properly maintained per the regular maint schedule, you will not have to replace the entire cooling system, body bushings, etc. You have to understand these cars were first designed as cop cars. Yes they have a few less cooling items and smaller ball joints, but these cars are built they way they are and why they were such great cop cars (9C1) and taxi service vehicles (9C6) and then when the cops were done with them, taxi companies then bought them and used them as taxi cars after they were retired from service as cop cars. It was not uncommon to find these vehicles with a half million miles on them and still not needing a slew of major repairs (if properly maintained). The platform is solid and proven. Of course some maint is inevitable at 15 years or older on any vehicle, but nowhere near what's been suggested here. I am not talking hypothetical either, I'm talking as 20 year owner of various B chassis vehicles, two of which (both 1996) I still own and operate. One is my daily driver. I have only had to replace a water pump and a power steering pump to it due to a failure and both were well, well out of warranty by tens of thousands of miles and about 9 years old. Given the fact I drive it like I stole it and it towed my 6300lb Safari about 1000 harder than normal miles, I think these two failures are more than reasonable. I have never had any electrical problems, corroded connectors (due to the good packard connectors found throughout the vehicles) and there have been zero soldered connection failures, not even on my 1980.

The B and D platforms, outside of the truck platforms were among the most stout designs and offerings out there and one reason GM nixed them. They were in direct competition with the 1/2 ton segment and of course trucks were far more profitable.

Of course any vehicle that is not maintained or severely abused and neglected will most likely need major work, but I can assure you, these vehicles are more than up nearly any task you can throw at them....the Police did, and I would say they are harder on vehicles than most.

[slowmover]

I, too, was a 20-yr owner of that car designed by GM as a fleet -- not police -- car and introduced in 1976 as a 1977 model. My Impala wagon had over 240,000 miles on it when sold, but that does not mean that ANY car (or truck) that is this age is not in need of a thorough going through. It is in need of it no matter who owned or how it was used. Age is age, and the make or model of the car is almost irrelevant. Age, time, takes its toll.

And, no, the final iteration of the car was not more reliable. Electrical small parts are notoriously unreliable in this line of cars in the final version. Etc.

I never said, nor intimated, that this would be a bad tow vehicle. I agree, wholeheartedly, that 3.42 gearing behind an OD automatic would provide the best balance of performance and economy. And that the final year of production would be the best to own.

But whether 13 or 17 years old, every system NEEDS to be gone through, as NOTHING is tougher on a vehicle than towing. (I would pay especial attention, mechanically, to the rear axle so that if it is questionable a junkyard piece can be procured for rebuilding as GM ball-bearing, semi-floating axles wear too quickly).

Note that nothing I recommended is "major" rebuilding. It may be laborious, but it does not include going through engine, transmission or the various major wiring harnesses (those are the "major" systems). It is a recommendation to search out the weak links in any system, and to go after -- immediately -- the two most often ignored by new owners of an old car: the cooling system (I would replace the whole of it, and then some) and the rubber bushings of the suspension and body mounts.



I would replace the steering pump, gearbox and other components as well, but most folks will not so I don't bother to recommend it.

To add to it, the air-conditioning system is most often in need of a complete re-build after 6-7 years on any car or truck, and, unfortunately, is the place most second and third owners "gimmick" a proper fix.

Of course, if the towing is easy and not too far from home, then none of this may make a difference.

[t walgamuth]

I have been searching out there the last few days and have found these wagons from $600 for one with high miles and major cosmetic and mechanicals to $9,000 for pristine modified cars with features that I don't want or need.

I am thinking I will probably buy a buick with under 100K on it if I can find one and also try to find leather interior.

One that I found is set up as a tow vehicle already and has over 200K on it. That actually might not be a bad one since it probably already has a lot of new things on it.

There seem to be some very nice ones in the $3 to 5K region.

[Andrew T]

I have set up many Award and tow vehicle combinations and depending on the size I would be cautious about using a Roadmaster for the Award trailer. The Award is equal to an Airstream aerodyanmically but generally not nearly as stable due to the very light hitch weight. The European chassis was not designed to accept torsion bars. Though you can use bars on them they cannot stand the pressure necessary to properly transfer weight on a vehicle with a long overhang like the Roadmaster.

The best tow vehicle for the Award has a very short rear overhang. A front drive van such as a Freestar is the ideal tow vehicle for them the wheelbase is 3" longer than the wagon but the rear overhang is about 1/2 plus you get rack and pinion steering and a wider rear suspension stance. The Freestar will handle far better than the wagon give you the space and ride you are looking for and give even better fuel economy. As well you can get relatively new ones very inexpensive. We have set up over 500 Windstars and Freestars for towing and they have been very reliable.

Andrew T

[t walgamuth]

Originally Posted by Andrew T

I have set up many Award and tow vehicle combinations and depending on the size I would be cautious about using a Roadmaster for the Award trailer. The Award is equal to an Airstream aerodyanmically but generally not nearly as stable due to the very light hitch weight. The European chassis was not designed to accept torsion bars. Though you can use bars on them they cannot stand the pressure necessary to properly transfer weight on a vehicle with a long overhang like the Roadmaster.

The best tow vehicle for the Award has a very short rear overhang. A front drive van such as a Freestar is the ideal tow vehicle for them the wheelbase is 3" longer than the wagon but the rear overhang is about 1/2 plus you get rack and pinion steering and a wider rear suspension stance. The Freestar will handle far better than the wagon give you the space and ride you are looking for and give even better fuel economy. As well you can get relatively new ones very inexpensive. We have set up over 500 Windstars and Freestars for towing and they have been very reliable.

Andrew T

Are you saying you set up a trailer with no leveling devices and use a front drive mini van to tow it with?

Are you saying you know of folks who towed awards with a roadmaster and had unsatisfactory results?

My award is a 30'