Towing package in a new tow vehicle

[Adventure.AS]

Originally Posted by Belbein

...All that said, here's a warning: I don't know if I have 13,000+ pounds of towing, 11,700 lbs, or 9,000 lbs. That's because (here's the warning) Ford's specs tell you that at some point you need 20" wheels for 13,000+ lbs, but not what the effect of the 18" wheels is.
...

The larger wheels and tires usually have more load capacity - which will affect your payload. You subtract all of the weight that you do load onto the TV from the total towing capacity.

So, if your weight of cargo in the TV and the hitch weight is 1,500 lbs subtract that from your tow capacity (e.g. 13,000) and the weight of the trailer that you are supposed to be able to tow is 13,000-1,500=11,500.

[RandyNH]

I will disagree, most of the load capacity is done by the air capacity and sidewall strength of the tire. I believe if you reread all the brochure specs you will find that the 18" E rated tire is required to get to the highest possible capacity.

The 20" tires are part of higher end appearance packages, which is why max/hd towing/payload packages aren't available on them (usually with a lot of chrome)

18" rated for 3415lbs (E rated truck tire)
20" rated for 2403lbs (P rated car tire)

[RandyNH]

Originally Posted by Belbein

Then each manufacturer (like Ford) publishes a Towing Guide, which have a lot of specs, are very difficult to read, and if you have a question like the 20" wheels, just beat your head against a wall, it's easier.

To read the brochure know the following
GVWR on driver door jam (?)
Engine config (3.5 EcoBoost)
Rear axle ratio (3.55)
Wheel base - (short bed or medium bed)
Drive config - (4x4 or 4x2)

Go to page 34 of brochure
Find engine then drive config then GVWR, we'll say 4x4 7600lbs, so fourth down on list
Now go to page 33 and find engine then rear axle ratio, go to fourth line down and get GCWR and go across to proper proper bed length and then drive config to get proper MAX tow rating
Keep in mind these numbers are the MAX rating and your numbers will always be less depending upon added options weights

[Belbein]

The general manager of the dealer I bought from sat with me as we went through the Ford towing guide, the specs on the truck, and damn near everything else we could find in the dealership, on Ford's website, or on the Web We couldn't find anything that gave us a sense of whether FORD rated the 18" or the 20" tires for the higher towing capacity. We tried back-reasoning from the various specs on the doorpost, tried interpolating between the lines of the ratings, etc etc etc. Finally we just decided that Ford didn't provide a rating.

I refuse to rely on anyone selling me anything to give me an unbiased opinion. But the GM, who was truly interested in the question, said that in his experience in the trucking business, the 18" tire would have more towing capacity than the 20", for the reason that was mentioned in the post above by the gentleman from NH.

I don't know. I'm assuming the the truck has more than enough towing capacity for me and my little trailer. [Shrug.] Maybe I'll sacrifice a goat or something just to cover my bases. *

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* No animals were contemplated being hurt in the deployment of this metaphor. No cultures were intended to be disparaged by the use of this metaphor. No religious intention was intended, and no non-religous intention was intended. No goats would ever actually be sacrificed, because Ford's specs don't say anything about it improving towing capacity and anyway, being an old goat myself ...

[Desertpig]

Originally Posted by Belbein

...
Just to let you know how we manuevered through all this: We just bought an F150 Supercrew* "Sport" with a 3.5 liter V6 Ecoboost, 470 foot/lbs of torque, 3.55 rear axle, 18 inch wheels, the Max Tow Package. All that said, here's a warning: I don't know if I have 13,000+ pounds of towing, 11,700 lbs, or 9,000 lbs. That's because (here's the warning) Ford's specs tell you that at some point you need 20" wheels for 13,000+ lbs, but not what the effect of the 18" wheels is.

I haven't towed with it yet. But I've bought it, so I better love it.

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*I didn't want the SuperCrew. Mi esposa estimada insisted. [Shrug. ] I got 70 more lb/ft of torque.

I just ordered a 2018 Ford F-150 XL SuperCrew with V6 2.7L EcoBoost to tow an also on order 2018 AS Sport 16 Bambi. The vehicle I got has the Payload and Trailer Tow Package. Also on order is a Reese Strait-Line WDS w/ Sway Control 12K lbs GTW and 1200 lbs TW

The question is - is it overkill to get all this since I'm towing a small trailer? Also, you guys mention to pay close attention to the tongue weight. The Fresh Water tank of the 16' is up front under the left dinette seat (inside left). Filling that will add an additional 192.28 lbs of weight. Will all that weight translate to the tongue weight of the trailer?

[Moflash]

My last last 3 F350's have had 20 inch wheels

[Jeff7176]

Know your TV payload and your TT tongue weight. That will probably be the biggest limitation.

First thing to do...look at the sticker on the driver's side door jamb area. The place where it tells you what you should run your tire PSI at.

With respect to a Ford F-150, you can get a tow package or a max tow package. The max tow is only available on the 3.5 EB with 3.55 diff.

I have a 5.0 4x4 XLT with the tow package and 3.73 diff. The sticker tells me the payload capacity is 1,706 pounds. That means the stock truck with a full tank of gas can handle 1,706 pounds or extra stuff...like people, dogs, food, generator...you get the idea. Anything you add to the stock truck counts against the weight. If you add a tonneau cover, it counts against the weight. If you swap the exhaust, it counts (but could weigh less so may give you a little extra). Every option hurts the payload capacity. That panorama sunroof is nice, but it cuts down on my payload capacity (compare two trucks equipped the same except the sunroof. The non-sunroof truck will have more capacity...may 100 pounds or so...don't know for sure). The sticker is based on all the "stuff" the factory put on your TV and accounts for it.

The tongue weight of the trailer counts against payload. It also matters that you have a hitch that can handle the weight. A 1000/10000 WD hitch can hold 1,000 pound tongue and pull a 10,000 pound trailer (presuming your truck can too).

The other measures to consider are GVWR, GAWR and GCWR. My truck has a GVWR of 7,000 pounds. Subtract the payload capacity and you get the curb weight (7,000 - 1,706 = 5,294 lbs). GAWR is posted on the jamb sticker, for me 3,450 front and 3,800 rear (which is more than 7,000).

My GCWR is 16,200 lbs. That's not on the sticker, but it is on a chart Ford provides. I have a 5.0 supercrew with 3.73 diff and 145" wheelbase. That same chart also shows a maximum loaded trailer weight of 10,900 lbs.

I have an International 25FB. It has a GVWR of 7,300 lbs, so that's not anything to worry about. It also has a tongue weight of almost 950 lbs (measured on a scale). That's the most important factor. That means I only have room for about 750 pounds of stuff, including people. Fortunately, it's just my wife and I and our dog weighs 10 lbs.

If you know you're "in the window" in terms of capacity, load up and go to a CAT scale. You'll get your front and rear axle weights along with the weight of the trailer. If you baseline weigh your truck alone you get a good idea of balance. You can maintain that with WD hitch settings and load configuration in your trailer. Just don't try to game your weights by shifting everything to the rear of the trailer...you'll have a greater chance of sway that can cause bad problems.

Anyhow, if you got this far sorry I went on so long. If I messed anything up, please let me know. Drive slow and safe.

[slowmover]

Tongue weight doesn’t count against payload. It goes against the variance found between axle limits and TARE weight.

A 1,000-lb TW is what cars and minivans deal with.

Of course, this presupposes understanding of how a WD hitch works.

[Jeff7176]

Thanks. This weekend I’m going to weigh my tongue individually, then hookup and go to the scales to see how everything balances. I’m hoping I can find a scale that’s not too busy so I can unhook and measure the truck alone to compare axle weight variation and also have a more accurate picture of how much my payload is impacted by TW.

My presumption being the TV weight while hooked up minus the TV weight while not represents the value of the TW.

And if I find a place that’s really quiet I may also get a weight without installing the bars on the hitch to see how efficient it is transferring weight.

[rmkrum]

The more you can measure the better you can understand how something works...go for it

[Bobbo]

Originally Posted by slowmover

Tongue weight doesn’t count against payload. It goes against the variance found between axle limits and TARE weight.

A 1,000-lb TW is what cars and minivans deal with.

Of course, this presupposes understanding of how a WD hitch works.

Uh, lest someone actually believe this because you used big words, tongue weight definitely DOES count against payload. It is weight pressing down on the back of the tow vehicle, which is exactly what stuff loaded into the bed of the truck does. The truck doesn't care if the weight is in the bed or hanging on the ball in the hitch receiver, it is still weight pressing down on the back of the truck.

And, someone who understands how a WD hitch works understands that it distributes weight from the pivot point of the ball on the hitch receiver to the front wheels of the tow vehicle and the trailer wheels, taking weight off of the rear wheels of the tow vehicle. It doesn't matter where that weight is, on the hitch or in the truck bed, it all gets affected.

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by Bobbo

Uh, lest someone actually believe this because you used big words, tongue weight definitely DOES count against payload. It is weight pressing down on the back of the tow vehicle, which is exactly what stuff loaded into the bed of the truck does. The truck doesn't care if the weight is in the bed or hanging on the ball in the hitch receiver, it is still weight pressing down on the back of the truck.

And, someone who understands how a WD hitch works understands that it distributes weight from the pivot point of the ball on the hitch receiver to the front wheels of the tow vehicle and the trailer wheels, taking weight off of the rear wheels of the tow vehicle. It doesn't matter where that weight is, on the hitch or in the truck bed, it all gets affected.

Close. No cigar.

About one-half of the TW will be still at the ball after WD properly tensioned. Whereas with payload virtually every pound is on the rear axle. Wrong correlation.

TW isn’t a problem. Hitch rigging covers it. The lack of understanding leads to bad TV choices. Belief that a problem exists where it doesn’t.

Further, the hitch isn’t about “weight” per se. It’s about steering control.

The end result, well done, allows the TV to feel pretty much the same as when solo, but otherwise loaded for camping.

Use of the scale means numbers that can be checked against a baseline. As with tire pressure, looking for why a problem has crept up means checking those numbers.

The only “weight problem” is significantly changing the load of one or both vehicles that alters handling to an extent that TV tire pressure and spring tension need to be adjusted.

.

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by Jeff7176

Thanks. This weekend I’m going to weigh my tongue individually, then hookup and go to the scales to see how everything balances. I’m hoping I can find a scale that’s not too busy so I can unhook and measure the truck alone to compare axle weight variation and also have a more accurate picture of how much my payload is impacted by TW.

My presumption being the TV weight while hooked up minus the TV weight while not represents the value of the TW.

And if I find a place that’s really quiet I may also get a weight without installing the bars on the hitch to see how efficient it is transferring weight.

The trucks will be on and off the scale quickly. As will you. “Quiet” just means you’ve figured out where to park. Morning from 8-12 is best for using a truckstop for any reason.

[slowmover]

Forgot to add: start with the TARE weight. TV with driver, max fuel (top off at truckstop) and any gear kept permanently aboard. This is the lightest weight of the TV from hereon.

Compare the scale ticket to the axle limits. The variance is “where” a WDH works.

Do a Google search and find what I called “the Ron Gratz chart” with the Three Pass Scale Method I originally linked from a post of his on RV.net in 2010.

Trailer should have full fresh water and max propane. Nothing else needed except gear kept permanently aboard to determine TT TARE weight.

The method will show — assuming hitch has been roughed in at home — the last steps to FALR. The beginning point for handling evaluations.

Use Andrew Thomsons article, “How to Set Your Torsion Bars” for the rough-in. That’s either on his site at Can Am RV, or in an RV Lifestyles article archive; or both.

Set TT tire pressure to sidewall max, and use the truck sticker range of the Tire Rating Load & Pressure Table to set TV tire pressure.

It all goes easier with a helper. And the CAT Scale phone app. Get the paper copies at the fuel desk.

Some day, with family aboard and supplies in TT representing a camping trip of more than a weekend, repeat the 3-Pass (with everyone in vehicle until finished).

These are the numbers that matter.

It’s also how everyone loaded their 1,200-lb “Payload” Chrysler station wagons with five people and a TT with a 1,000-lb TW. And somehow managed to cover all of North America and much of Mexico in the good old days.

The custom hitch receivers we had built were better than the jokes bolted to the frame rail ends of today. That’s the biggest difference (and it stops no one from adding bracing for better performance today).

.

[Jeff7176]

Got the CAT app. Was easy. Slow day at the scales. I measured 950 on the tongue with a tongue scale before leaving. Stopped with full load and was below on all measures. My TT weight was lower than I expected (there’s not much in it) but still. TV weights were all more than 300 pounds below GAWR so that was reassuring.

Lots of wind today, but felt solid. Need to measure again on the way home. I still need my TV loaded without TT to compare. I’ll get that Monday when the drive to “get there” isn’t so strong.

I appreciate all the perspectives you all have provided. Taken what I know, shaped it, and made it more powerful. Thank you.

Jeff