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Old 10-28-2020, 08:48 AM   #141
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Addition of a tow vehicle rear stabilizer bar is not generally recommended for towing particularly near the upper limits for the vehicle. The bar reduces roll and improves handling when not towing but it unloads the inner rear wheel when cornering while towing and increases rear axle wheel slip reducing safety margin for oversteer.

To jcl's point on slalom tests, they are great for handling performance but not a good way to test for sway oversteer instability. Those interested in testing towing safety margin would repeat the SAE tests. Those wishing to create an impressive distraction may choose other demonstrations.
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Old 10-28-2020, 05:23 PM   #142
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Collyn

What are the error bars on the blue bold statement? For example, I have ordered an Airstream with 10,000 lb. GVWR (please forgive the barbaric units) and my tow vehicle weighs about 8500 lbs. when we're fully loaded up for a camping trip. I'll be pulling it with a "1 ton" truck. Practically speaking, I don't know how to get a heavier tow vehicle than what I already own. While I'm not challenging your knowledge or logic, this just doesn't feel right to me...especially when my truck is certified by GM to be able to tow 20,000 lbs. with a conventional hitch. Can you help me rectify these statements?

Thanks,
Jayson

Jayson
I can understand your confusion re this (you are far from alone).

The problem is that the vehicle industry does not adequately define (and often barely at all) what it means by 'towing capacity'.

In essence, it is not what a vehicle can tow via an overhung hitch - it is what it can tow 'on the end of a rope' and stop and restart on a specified gradient.

Travel trailer owners rarely appear to realise they are a tiny minority of those towing trailers. Most by far are the military and tradespeople. And what most tow is about two tonnes on a twin axle trailer about 16 feet long. And not at 60 plus mph.

The only way you realistically tow a long and heavy travel trailer reasonably safely is to tow it with something that at least as heavy, have 10%-12% nose weight and above all to keep speed below 60 mph. With your rig I would suggest a lower maximum when descending any hill that - particularly if it has any bends. Also to keep the tow vehicle at its maximum legal laden weight - use sand bags if necessary. Also keep you tow vehicle rear tyre pressure 10psi higher than the front (they should at normal advised pressure).

The Hensley hitch will assist but most other 'stability' aids assist their vendor's bank balances - not the vehicle's. This particularly applies to any frictional device.

Re 'barbaric units' - it is a shame the USA public does not use metric units (all US engineers etc have done so since 1950 and many before that). It makes physics and mechanics so much easier to explain.

Collyn
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Old 10-28-2020, 05:28 PM   #143
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Collyn can't have paid much attention to US roads if he thinks most American tradesmen don't tow their utility trailers over 60 mph.
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Old 10-28-2020, 06:14 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Collyn View Post
Jayson
I can understand your confusion re this (you are far from alone).

The problem is that the vehicle industry does not adequately define (and often barely at all) what it means by 'towing capacity'.

In essence, it is not what a vehicle can tow via an overhung hitch - it is what it can tow 'on the end of a rope' and stop and restart on a specified gradient.

Travel trailer owners rarely appear to realise they are a tiny minority of those towing trailers. Most by far are the military and tradespeople. And what most tow is about two tonnes on a twin axle trailer about 16 feet long. And not at 60 plus mph.

The only way you realistically tow a long and heavy travel trailer reasonably safely is to tow it with something that at least as heavy, have 10%-12% nose weight and above all to keep speed below 60 mph. With your rig I would suggest a lower maximum when descending any hill that - particularly if it has any bends. Also to keep the tow vehicle at its maximum legal laden weight - use sand bags if necessary. Also keep you tow vehicle rear tyre pressure 10psi higher than the front (they should at normal advised pressure).

The Hensley hitch will assist but most other 'stability' aids assist their vendor's bank balances - not the vehicle's. This particularly applies to any frictional device.

Re 'barbaric units' - it is a shame the USA public does not use metric units (all US engineers etc have done so since 1950 and many before that). It makes physics and mechanics so much easier to explain.

Collyn
Thanks, Collyn

In my previous setup, I had 8500 lb. truck, 8200 lb. trailer that's 31 ft long, Propride (Hensley) hitch, 60psi steer, 80psi drive, 80psi trailer, and 16% tongue weight. My max tow speed was 65mph. In general, I'm nearly within your recommended ranges, albeit with slightly greater velocity.

I've sold that trailer. New trailer will be 33 ft. long and should weigh (estimate) about 9500 lb. when loaded. Trailer GVWR is 10,000 lb. I will use same hitch, same truck, and same tire pressures. In terms of a sensitivity analysis, how critical is it that my trailer will outweigh my tow vehcial by 1000 lb. (12%)? For me this is really an academic exercise because practically I'm not likely to make any further changes. It's more piece of mind. We spend most of our traveling miles in flat Texas. We only get deep into the Rocky Mountains for a single multi-week trip once per annum. Thoughts?

Thanks again for your knowledge and advice.

-Jayson
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Old 10-28-2020, 11:41 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by jaybauman View Post
Thanks, Collyn

In my previous setup, I had 8500 lb. truck, 8200 lb. trailer that's 31 ft long, Propride (Hensley) hitch, 60psi steer, 80psi drive, 80psi trailer, and 16% tongue weight. My max tow speed was 65mph. In general, I'm nearly within your recommended ranges, albeit with slightly greater velocity.

I've sold that trailer. New trailer will be 33 ft. long and should weigh (estimate) about 9500 lb. when loaded. Trailer GVWR is 10,000 lb. I will use same hitch, same truck, and same tire pressures. In terms of a sensitivity analysis, how critical is it that my trailer will outweigh my tow vehcial by 1000 lb. (12%)? For me this is really an academic exercise because practically I'm not likely to make any further changes. It's more piece of mind. We spend most of our traveling miles in flat Texas. We only get deep into the Rocky Mountains for a single multi-week trip once per annum. Thoughts?

Thanks again for your knowledge and advice.

-Jayson
Jason

I can only (as an engineer) ethically advise you to reconsider that proposal.

While not raised on this thread, excess length is as bad as excess weight (and you propose to increase both.

It is not feasible (or legally wise) to attempt to quantify this, but it is virtually a recipe for an accident looking for somewhere to manifest. It's critical speed is likely to be as low as 50 mph.

I suggest you obtain a second opinion from a USA specialist in this area.

Collyn
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Old 10-28-2020, 11:51 PM   #146
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Collyn can't have paid much attention to US roads if he thinks most American tradesmen don't tow their utility trailers over 60 mph.
Having visited the USA over 20 times and driven across and up and down it several times I am well aware that American tradesmen may tow above 60 mph.

You are overlooking that those trailers are typically only 16 ft or so long and weight a laden two or so tonnes. The speed at which they are likely to start swaying is way over 60 mph.

(Do you not have tradeswomen there too? Or, being mostly saner than men, do they not tow above 60 mph?)

Collyn
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Old 10-29-2020, 12:28 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Collyn View Post
Having visited the USA over 20 times and driven across and up and down it several times I am well aware that American tradesmen may tow above 60 mph.

You are overlooking that those trailers are typically only 16 ft or so long and weight a laden two or so tonnes. The speed at which they are likely to start swaying is way over 60 mph.

(Do you not have tradeswomen there too? Or, being mostly saner than men, do they not tow above 60 mph?)

Collyn
I am not overlooking anything, I'm pointing out that your statement (which you actually DID make, though you seem to be deying it) does not comport with reality:

Quote:
Travel trailer owners rarely appear to realise they are a tiny minority of those towing trailers. Most by far are the military and tradespeople. And what most tow is about two tonnes on a twin axle trailer about 16 feet long. And not at 60 plus mph.
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Old 10-29-2020, 04:24 AM   #148
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You and Bob are talkin' my language. I realize this is off topic, but really 10w40 without zinc additive? Never thought of that. Then again, up until maybe 5-6 years ago I also never considered zinc additives either....
I worked in a shop where we worked exclusively on flatheads. The owner used only valvoline 10-40 and we never had a single issue. They didnít put it in when they were new and they donít need it now.
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Old 10-29-2020, 06:05 AM   #149
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I worked in a shop where we worked exclusively on flatheads. The owner used only valvoline 10-40 and we never had a single issue. They didnít put it in when they were new and they donít need it now.
Maybe thats because the oil back then had zinc already in it.
If you actually own a flattie, it's more important use quality not what brand of quality.
I use Z-Rod, "Bertha" has been on the road since new, never restored, safety wire still on the hood hinges and running just fine.👍
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Old 10-29-2020, 06:40 AM   #150
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Addition of a tow vehicle rear stabilizer bar is not generally recommended for towing particularly near the upper limits for the vehicle. The bar reduces roll and improves handling when not towing but it unloads the inner rear wheel when cornering while towing and increases rear axle wheel slip reducing safety margin for oversteer.
Certainly youíre not advocating for vehicles with factory installed rear stabilizers to remove them when towing? Also, 70+ percent of my driving is without my AS. I noticed improved handling with the rear stabilizer. I donít think I want to remove it..
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Old 10-29-2020, 07:01 PM   #151
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You're well under the towing limit so no worries. The factory generally leaves them off depending on suspension specifics to get a higher tow rating. My comments wasn't directed at you but others who may be reading and are closer to the vehicle rating limit. I completely agree you are in good shape. I suppose I could have been more clear. Thanks for the pushback!
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Old 10-29-2020, 07:23 PM   #152
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Re: I am not overlooking anything, I'm pointing out that your statement (which you actually DID make, though you seem to be deying it) does not comport with reality:

Re my

'Travel trailer owners rarely appear to realise they are a tiny minority of those towing trailers. Most by far are the military and tradespeople. And what most tow is about two tonnes on a twin axle trailer about 16 feet long. And not at 60 plus mph'.

Can only assume I had a senior moment (but as 90 plus that can happen!).

That 'blued' should not have been there.

Mea Culpa

Collyn
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Old 10-30-2020, 07:05 AM   #153
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You're well under the towing limit so no worries. The factory generally leaves them off depending on suspension specifics to get a higher tow rating. My comments wasn't directed at you but others who may be reading and are closer to the vehicle rating limit. I completely agree you are in good shape. I suppose I could have been more clear. Thanks for the pushback!
Thanks. I am not an engineer, so I put some weight on the thoughts of those that are. Lots and lots of miles of experience which carries weight also. I continue to learn. One of the reasons I follow these tow threads. Along with the entertainment value. Every so often I have the thought, ďjust buy a one ton dieselĒ and Iíll never have to read another TV thread again. But whereís the fun in that?
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Old 10-30-2020, 07:40 AM   #154
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Thanks. I am not an engineer, so I put some weight on the thoughts of those that are. Lots and lots of miles of experience which carries weight also. I continue to learn. One of the reasons I follow these tow threads. Along with the entertainment value. Every so often I have the thought, ďjust buy a one ton dieselĒ and Iíll never have to read another TV thread again. But whereís the fun in that?
I think the tow vehicle thread is the most entertaining thread I've seen here. It's a great combination of useful information, useless information, and general banter. There's always some drama!
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Old 10-30-2020, 02:38 PM   #155
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Old 11-01-2020, 06:55 AM   #156
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Maybe thats because the oil back then had zinc already in it.
If you actually own a flattie, it's more important use quality not what brand of quality.
I use Z-Rod, "Bertha" has been on the road since new, never restored, safety wire still on the hood hinges and running just fine.👍
ďIf you actually own a flattie ď lol. Thatís a good one.


I use regular 10w40 valvoline in my current flathead (1929 Ford) and have in every one I owned, or worked on, since my first one in 1992. Zinc additive is a myth. Always has been. I usually stay out of these zinc arguments as Iíve owned and worked on more flat tappet engines than most, especially those on an Airstream forum. Letís go back to arguing about torque (my new F350 has 1050 ft lbs) or which tires are best.
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Old 11-01-2020, 06:57 AM   #157
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Thanks. I am not an engineer, so I put some weight on the thoughts of those that are. Lots and lots of miles of experience which carries weight also. I continue to learn. One of the reasons I follow these tow threads. Along with the entertainment value. Every so often I have the thought, ďjust buy a one ton dieselĒ and Iíll never have to read another TV thread again. But whereís the fun in that?
The first time you need to merge with that one ton diesel and you mat it and are doing 75 at the end of a short entrance ramp you will understand.
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Old 11-02-2020, 06:31 AM   #158
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The first time you need to merge with that one ton diesel and you mat it and are doing 75 at the end of a short entrance ramp you will understand.
Donít get me wrong, Iíd like to own one. I do appreciate the advantages, thatís for sure. I guess itís my minimalist nature that keeps me from switching. Itís like pounding in a small finishing nail with a sledge hammer. Well, maybe thatís a bit of an exaggeration.
We will see. If we start towing more miles, go to more places, it would be worth the added cost, and hassle. Iím retired now, Iím ďsupposedĒ to have more free time..
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Old 11-02-2020, 06:49 AM   #159
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The first time you need to merge with that one ton diesel and you mat it and are doing 75 at the end of a short entrance ramp you will understand.
Ya see........there is no collective understanding. I can and have easily hit 75mph for a merge with my 6.2L gas 1500 while pulling my 30' Classic. Passing on 2 lane roads is equally effortless. After all, that engine's roots are Corvette and Camaro SS. It is unbelievably torquey in all the right places with the 8 speed, let alone the newer 10 speed.
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Old 11-02-2020, 06:55 AM   #160
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ďIf you actually own a flattie ď lol. Thatís a good one.


I use regular 10w40 valvoline in my current flathead (1929 Ford) and have in every one I owned, or worked on, since my first one in 1992. Zinc additive is a myth. Always has been. I usually stay out of these zinc arguments as Iíve owned and worked on more flat tappet engines than most, especially those on an Airstream forum. Letís go back to arguing about torque (my new F350 has 1050 ft lbs) or which tires are best.
TETO...Maybe if you had used a zink additive you wouldn't have had to work on all those 'flatties'...another 'good one'.😂

Bob
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Notice the safety wire on the hood hinge, engine never been out never been apart.
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