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Old 10-17-2020, 01:12 AM   #101
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As others have suggested the higher center of gravity the straight axle front and the compromises to the rear suspension required to keep it in relative balance with the front diminishes cornering performance a bit over a 2X4. Not a lot, but enough, so if you don't have a specific need for four wheel drive some might want to forgo it. Mine? It's a 4x4 for the snow up north when we used to visit frequently and the occasional poor campsite.
Most 1/2 ton 4x4's nowadays that I know of have independent front suspension,not straight axles. I'll take my 4x4 any time.Handles just fine with no compromises.
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Old 10-17-2020, 07:33 PM   #102
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I'm beginning to think that asking about tow vehicles is a bit like asking what kind of oil should be use on some of the sports car forums that I frequent.

Or asking about zinc additive on the old car forums
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Old 10-18-2020, 06:17 PM   #103
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If you stay with your plan of a 23' trailer, as far as trailers go, the consensus of a huge number of posts tracks identically with the math and physics which indicates if a truck is your choice, the 1500's are the way to go. The combination will be plenty stable and enough additional axle load capacity to carry quite a bit of gear and will generally be more comfortable and handle better than a larger truck. Larger trucks will be more stable, but they will be harsh and handling will be stiff and less refined.

A 4X4 is not your best choice for towing (less stable, poorer handling, poorer cornering) but the trade-off may be worth it to you.

Another choice for a 23' and under is a high performing SUV. They will have fair to decent stability, excellent handling and cornering so they will feel comfortable and sure. They will greatly benefit from some sway and stability support but they will tow well.

If you go up to 25' and larger, the SUV's begin to have difficulty with stability, but they continue to feel great. The smaller trucks don't compete as well with the 3/4 tons in this range. For a 25 it's a tossup. For 27 and higher the 3/4's and 1 tons do better in all categories than the 1/2 tons, but the performance SUVs continue to feel handle and corner better, though again they have stability issues that as the trailer get larger, get more serious.
My wife owns an AMG GLA 45 Mercedes that has a top speed of 170 mph. It is full time 4WD. It handles superbly and has much same performance as a hot Porche. Certainly no stability issues!

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Old 10-18-2020, 06:37 PM   #104
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Collyn that's an interesting observation but, you and I both know that the handling performance issue with most US 4WD pickups has nothing to do with the concept of 4WD and everything to do with the other intentional design features of 4WD pickup suspension which are primarily driven by consumer demand. the most predominate consideration is off and on road mixed use. How does that Mercedes perform on washboard roads, 6 inch ruts and 3 inches of mud?
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Old 10-19-2020, 09:52 PM   #105
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Collyn that's an interesting observation but, you and I both know that the handling performance issue with most US 4WD pickups has nothing to do with the concept of 4WD and everything to do with the other intentional design features of 4WD pickup suspension which are primarily driven by consumer demand. the most predominate consideration is off and on road mixed use. How does that Mercedes perform on washboard roads, 6 inch ruts and 3 inches of mud?
Australia's main are bitumen but many lesser routes are corrugated dirt. Mud is less common - but when so is usually not drivable (so the road is closed) Because of this virtually all (except city-only vehicles) must [/I]be able to cope. As does that Mercedes for [I]limited such use. We would not however choose one if we lived again in an outback area (we are in Sydney).

By and large, the favoured outback vehicles are the Toyota Land Cruiser and even more so the Toyota Hilux. My wife and I owned these when we lived in the Kimberly (a remote area the size of France - with only 70,000 population)--in the top North-West).

I do not think the Hilux is sold in the USA but is the top-selling of all vehicles in Australia.

We also had the 4.2 litre Nissan Patrol - a superb vehicle both on and off-road. Ours had a centre diff lock and wheel hub locks plus a 14,000 kg winch.

The one that does not work well here is the Jeep! It is simply not rugged enough so has a dreadful reputation in our vast outback areas - that's most of Australia apart from Alice Springs in the centre - and close to the coast.
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Old 10-19-2020, 10:03 PM   #106
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As others have suggested the higher center of gravity the straight axle front and the compromises to the rear suspension required to keep it in relative balance with the front diminishes cornering performance a bit over a 2X4. Not a lot, but enough, so if you don't have a specific need for four wheel drive some might want to forgo it. Mine? It's a 4x4 for the snow up north when we used to visit frequently and the occasional poor campsite.
Since the topic of the thread is half-tons, I'll point out that I believe all the modern half-tons retain independent front suspension even for 4WD pickups. The GMC/Chevy cousins have independent front ends on the HD 4x4s as well, but the RAM and Ford use a solid front axle for the HD 4x4s.
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Old 10-20-2020, 07:23 AM   #107
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Yes, good point. Another post made the same point. I should have acknowledged it then also. Center of gravity is the other detriment. Again I tow with 4WD. To me the trade off is worth it. But my bias caused me to see all truck 4WDs the same as mine....
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Old 10-20-2020, 08:24 AM   #108
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Or asking about zinc additive on the old car forums
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Old 10-20-2020, 05:25 PM   #109
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Yes, good point. Another post made the same point. I should have acknowledged it then also. Center of gravity is the other detriment. Again I tow with 4WD. To me the trade off is worth it. But my bias caused me to see all truck 4WDs the same as mine....
Brian

Re 'Center of gravity is the other detriment' - whilst true, that far more important is the height of the centre of gravity relative to the roll axis.

With virtually all independent suspensions the roll centre is close to (or at) ground level at the axle location. There is thus a large Moment Arm.

With a beam axle that roll centre is about chassis level - and hence a far shorter Moment Arm and less roll.

There is still a good case for beam axles - at least for off-road vehicles - even the Mercedes UniMog retains them. Their main drawback (for beam front axles) is gyroscopic precession unless adequately damped.

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Old 10-21-2020, 03:24 PM   #110
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Brian

Re 'Center of gravity is the other detriment' - whilst true, that far more important is the height of the centre of gravity relative to the roll axis.

With virtually all independent suspensions the roll centre is close to (or at) ground level at the axle location. There is thus a large Moment Arm.

With a beam axle that roll centre is about chassis level - and hence a far shorter Moment Arm and less roll.

There is still a good case for beam axles - at least for off-road vehicles - even the Mercedes UniMog retains them. Their main drawback (for beam front axles) is gyroscopic precession unless adequately damped.

Collyn
Collyn,
I knew when I cheated in High School Physics it would come back to haunt me. Now some 40 years later.... it has. I have almost no idea what you said here. I am going to take this as the gospel truth but could never repeat it
My guess is that you are spot on though.
Thank you and I will be following your advise too. Along with several others (BB Brian) here on AF.
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Old 10-22-2020, 12:42 AM   #111
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What I am getting it is that a beam-axled caravan is generally more stable than one with independent suspension.

The Airstream design is, however, excellent.

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Old 10-22-2020, 05:29 AM   #112
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Bob
🇺🇸

WHAT???? I use Z-Rod.
I’ve had many flatheads. Valvoline 10-40 without additives is 100 times better than what Ford put in them when they were new. Never had a problem.
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Old 10-23-2020, 10:29 PM   #113
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I am a little surprised about the seeming concern on this forum re tow vehicle roll-overs. Are they common in the USA?

In Australia, when a trailer jack-knifes it often takes the tow vehicle with it - but 4WD rollovers are very rare. This is despite many of our inland roads not only being dirt - but also steeply cambered.

I do not ever having seen it raised on any local forum.

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Old 10-24-2020, 04:25 AM   #114
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Accident statistics show 4WD versions of trucks tend to have greater fatality rates than the 2WD versions by about 20%. I have assumed due to increased risk of rollover but I don't know with certainty. I also don't have any data on towing rollovers by vehicle type.
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Old 10-24-2020, 04:29 AM   #115
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Yes, but how many of those fatalities were yahoos off-roading in their tricked out 4WD?

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Old 10-24-2020, 04:37 AM   #116
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Larry you have a great point. This is the trouble with statistics, it's so easy to reach conclusions that are not justified by the limited data.
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Old 10-24-2020, 07:05 AM   #117
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Larry you have a great point. This is the trouble with statistics, it's so easy to reach conclusions that are not justified by the limited data.
I can tell you all types of vehicles roll very frequently after a crash. Most trucks here are 4x4, most are used for commuting and never even haul plywood. I’m amazed how many crashes I see where one or both vehicles roll. It’s easy to blame yahoos but often it’s moms on their way to drop kids off at school. Also with very little enforcement on the freeways and speeds in the 90s vehicles roll all the time. Recently I had several vehicles pass my ambulance on I-696 and I had a critical patient on board, running full code (lights and siren activated).
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Old 10-24-2020, 12:45 PM   #118
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Yes, but how many of those fatalities were yahoos off-roading in their tricked out 4WD?

Larry
Those are often low speed, poor driver judgement crashes, and the ones I attended running a tow truck never had a serious injury let alone a fatality, not that one couldn't happen.

I equate roll overs with excessive speed, on road. A higher CoG just lowers the threshold where it can happen.
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Old 10-25-2020, 03:12 AM   #119
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2017 4 X 4 ram...13 31’ Classic..Reese duel cam...no problems in 65,000 miles..last trip comming home we had 20-40 mph side wind with gusts even higher , for 120 miles on skinny road...the wind would lift the awning in the center..it did break the metal that holds the small kook out...we just drove accordingly...45-55..my weights are 4820,4880,7700...the tv is heavier than the trailer.
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Old 10-25-2020, 05:35 AM   #120
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Those are often low speed, poor driver judgement crashes, and the ones I attended running a tow truck never had a serious injury let alone a fatality, not that one couldn't happen.

I equate roll overs with excessive speed, on road. A higher CoG just lowers the threshold where it can happen.
I can’t speak for anyone else but when people cite that their SUV handles better than a truck, I think to myself, “of course it does!”...
I’ve owned a pickup for 10 of the last 11 years. The one non pickup I owned was an Audi Q7. My wife drives an Audi SQ5.
Both Audis were capable of driving at much higher speeds, far more safely than any truck I have or probably ever will drive.

The reality is that I do not drive any truck the way I drive other vehicles. Things slow down when I’m in a truck. I leave more distance between myself and others and I simply do not push it the same way I would push a car or even an SUV.

I’ve stopped getting ticket since driving a truck, I drive at slower speeds and I actually enjoy the drive just as much although it is a very different dynamic.

Maybe I’m simply getting old? I’m not yet 60 though...
No, I believe it is that I simply that I have learned to enjoy the vehicle within the envelop it was designed to excel in.
There is beauty in any vehicle if you find it’s happy spot.
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