Towing an Airstream with a 1/2 ton truck

[Andrew T]

I think you’re numbers about accident frequency are including trees clipped in campgrounds, gas station posts etc.

Our dealer association looked at Ontario accident stats when we were working with the Ministry of transport.
Per Kilometre driven you were less than 50% as likely to be involved in a highway collision. In the entire 2 year study there was only one injury involving an RV and zero fatalities. This is in a province of 14 million.
Our store has approximately 2500 customers that would definitely come to us in case of an accident. If they average 4000 towing miles per year that is 1 million miles of exposure each year. We have not seen a loss of control incident in the last 4 years and it would likely have been a loss of control towing or solo.

That’s one accident in 4 million miles.

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by Daquenzer

And where do you get your numbers? By what authority do you make these statements? I pull a 28’ international, use a propride hitch, and have absolutely no sway. Where in the manuals created by Ford do they put a limit on trailer length? Again, name your sources. I kind of get the feeling that much of this stuff is made up. In fact why would Ford allow the BLISS system to go beyond 30’ to 33’ if trailer length was such and issue? Again name your sources instead of simply an opinion. In fact nothing is stated in the towing guides about trailer length. NOTHING.

https://www.roamingtimes.com/2018/03...-sway-control/

Right nothing is stated about trailer length because it can add complexity that most people have no hope of understanding or addressing correctly, so best practice is to keep guidance simple so that it is not misunderstood (which often causes problems much worse than simplified guidance). So nowhere in the manuals will you find anything instructive about trailer size. You'd have to ask Ford why their blind spot management system goes beyond 33 feet, I can only speculate that many customers prefer some extra cushion.

I can assure you this stuff is not made up. The best sources for information about towing stability is from research papers sold by the SAE. I would say the SAE and presenting members is probably my best single source. There are also a number of technical books published that address vehicle suspension design and stability and a number of books involving stability of towing combinations. They are all intended for audiences trained in physics, multidimensional analysis, control system stability and suspension design. A number of free papers are available online as well. Duck Duck Go will help you find them. As far as the mathematical models go, there are a few simplified models written in MATLAB available online that do a nice job of demonstrating the concepts. Workable and accurate models are not free but they are available also.

You have no sway with a Propride because of the hitch design the combination relative sizes and weights and probably that your driving style never lets the trailer experience any significant yaw motion. The Propride hitches are a fantastic product and will dramatically reduce risk of sway, oversteer and jackknife events.

Despite the great design, they can't perform miracles but in the case of a 1/2 ton and 28-30 ft trailers, they will add more than enough of the stability needed to do the job as long as one does not drive down the road like a bat out of hell.

Search for the papers I describe, you will find them. Read them and ask questions, you will come to learn that those of us warning people about the risks of towing to large trailers have a basis for it.

[GettinAway]

SuperChop, just a few thoughts. How far do you travel in a day? 400 miles is a pretty good day for us now that we are retired. Even if you just have a 200 mile range, will you only stop one time all day? If I’m going to pull over and eat or just stretch (had one back surgery already, don’t want another) I don’t mind getting fuel. Fuel range is more of a peace of mind attribute. If I get to a quarter tank left, I’m not in full panic mode. Even out west, and we go out west every year..
Also, how would a chart include modifications to the TV? The changes to tires, wheels, suspensions, shocks, and your weight distribution hitch make a difference. It would require a complicated active spreadsheet with impossible variations.
Just get a huge truck with the biggest fuel tank that can be found and you’ll be covered. Or not.

[gypsydad]

This has become another thread with very interesting and sometimes, informative data...trouble is, no one wants to hear they "may" be towing their "larger" AS (+27') with an "uncapable" or "unsafe" 1/2T. BayouBiker has provided some great, honest data...(thanks Brian!) I for one, have experience towing with both the 1/2T F150 towing and with my 3/4T F250 6.7L diesel for several years now...no comparison in the towing experinece. The F250 diesel hands down has more control, power, payload, and of course the most important part...braking. Again, all of you who have not experienced the difference between the 1/2T and a 3/4-1T diesel towing a "larger then 25'" AS, you may not know what your talking about. (no disrespect intended!) Specs should be enough; not saying driving safely and being aware of your environment coupled with your experience does not help...it does for sure, but there is no comparison. IMHO

If your in Florida or perhaps Texas (like me) and no real mountains, but with 75+mph highways, you may never know the advantage of TV size, for control, power, engine brakes, wheel brakes (and payload). It's more then the extra 1ft wheel length in wheelbase, extra weight of TV, or the power/1000lbs+ torque. It's also the larger brakes, the feeling of setting cruise control to 65mph with Tow Haul mode engaged, Automatic Engine brake set, the distance safety set...cruising along controlling speed up/down/around using your thumbs, with no no white knuckles. Everyone happy!

Does that mean your not alert for emergency situations? We have had a few where we know our F150 would not have stopped us in time with the 28'. For the many of us who have experienced both 1/2T and 3/4-1T difference, I think there is a consensus for a reason. We would all like a smaller TV, right? Andy's fixed up some pretty sweet "foreign SUV's and other vehicles for towing, but Andy is in Canada...We all agree, it ain't fun parking, paying extra for fuel or for service of the 3/4-1T diesel TV's...but for the main job of towing my 28'FC at least 20K miles a year, it does a great job in many ways! (and wife is happy!)

[jcl]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Always wondered about if a modified TV in an accident, could/would be liable to the person who modified outside MFG specs for towing? I remember my son's accident with our Expedition years ago when insurance asked a lot of questions about passengers and cargo loading for the law suite.

Was that the case where your children overloaded an Expedition, and told Ford so in discovery, and the manufacturer paid anyway? I always thought that was a great example of a user exceeding payload and that fact not determining liability, and could never understand why you kept referring to it as an example of overload creating liability for the operator.

[Daquenzer]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

Right nothing is stated about trailer length because it can add complexity that most people have no hope of understanding or addressing correctly, so best practice is to keep guidance simple so that it is not misunderstood (which often causes problems much worse than simplified guidance). So nowhere in the manuals will you find anything instructive about trailer size. You'd have to ask Ford why their blind spot management system goes beyond 33 feet, I can only speculate that many customers prefer some extra cushion.

I can assure you this stuff is not made up. The best sources for information about towing stability is from research papers sold by the SAE. I would say the SAE and presenting members is probably my best single source. There are also a number of technical books published that address vehicle suspension design and stability and a number of books involving stability of towing combinations. They are all intended for audiences trained in physics, multidimensional analysis, control system stability and suspension design. A number of free papers are available online as well. Duck Duck Go will help you find them. As far as the mathematical models go, there are a few simplified models written in MATLAB available online that do a nice job of demonstrating the concepts. Workable and accurate models are not free but they are available also.

You have no sway with a Propride because of the hitch design the combination relative sizes and weights and probably that your driving style never lets the trailer experience any significant yaw motion. The Propride hitches are a fantastic product and will dramatically reduce risk of sway, oversteer and jackknife events.

Despite the great design, they can't perform miracles but in the case of a 1/2 ton and 28-30 ft trailers, they will add more than enough of the stability needed to do the job as long as one does not drive down the road like a bat out of hell.

Search for the papers I describe, you will find them. Read them and ask questions, you will come to learn that those of us warning people about the risks of towing to large trailers have a basis for it.

And it all sounds very complex and should towing be that complex no one would be able to tow without an engineering degree; which makes one sound all educated and informed. But you simply can’t tell me that the designers of these pickups wouldn’t put something in the manuals about towing lengths if it made a significant difference; especially in the kind of litigous society we have where large manufacturers are putting their capital on the line every time they print a manual; and especially if 3’ made that much difference! I’m not drinking the Kool-Aid.

Finally when it comes to towing there are no miracle combinations. A 3/4 ton can be just as dangeorus as a 1/2 ton. And in fact there is significant material out there that notes a 3/4 ton is less maneuverable than 1/2 tons due to the type of front suspension and higher center of gravity. And I always here the refrain, “I can tow and it just doesn’t seem like my trailer is behind me.” from the 3/4 ton diesel crowd. Frankly, I want to know that I’m towing something. Because if there is one thing that causes accidents it is realizing that just because it may not feel like you are towing something going in a straight line, that 3/4 ton with that front suspension and high center of gravity is going to cause problems in an accident avoidance situation.

The following article is informative....

https://rvlifemag.com/towing-half-to...e-quarter-ton/

And finally yes if you are hauling a ton of stuff along with the camper then a 3/4 ton or 1 ton may be the choice. But a 1/2 ton is perfectly fine when towing within it prescribed weight limits and a properly set up suspension and hitch. After all the 1/2 ton of today is really the 3/4 ton of not so many years ago.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

RV accidents are not as rare as most people believe. Statistics indicate they occur at an average rate of 1 accident per 12,300 RV miles. 1 accident with injury every 30,300 RV miles traveled. Sway and oversteer are the number two and three leading cause of accident with injury, and those two causes are directly related to towing close or over limits.

I don't think these numbers are comparable to asteroids or lightning strikes.

Originally Posted by azflycaster

I have a very difficult time with the numbers you posted. If your numbers are factual, I should have been in 20+ accidents and injured over 8 times. Could you please produce the source for this data...

And....crickets. Come on Brian, show your work and your source. If you have it at hand, what is the issue? Or is it speculation?

Originally Posted by Andrew T

I think your numbers about accident frequency are including trees clipped in campgrounds, gas station posts etc.

Our dealer association looked at Ontario accident stats when we were working with the Ministry of Transport.
Per Kilometre driven you were less than 50% as likely to be involved in a highway collision. In the entire 2 year study there was only one injury involving an RV and zero fatalities. This is in a province of 14 million.
Our store has approximately 2500 customers that would definitely come to us in case of an accident. If they average 4000 towing miles per year that is 1 million miles of exposure each year. We have not seen a loss of control incident in the last 4 years and it would likely have been a loss of control towing or solo.

That’s one accident in 4 million miles.

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

In the US per mile it is 1/3 or 66% less likely. The NHTSA data indicates 25-40 fatalities per year in the US. 65,000-80,000 injuries per year.

Here is one set of numbers, a little dated from from the FMCSA:

RV accidents facts and statistics
A report released by the Federal Motor Carrier Safety administration’s report in 2003 said that more than 70,000 people were involved in RV accidents that year. In 2012, they reported 75,000 injuries due to RV accidents.

A Fatality Analysis Reporting System (FARS) analysis of data between 2000 and 2007 found that a total of 212 people died in RV accidents in those years. At 26 deaths per year, the rate of RV deaths has an average fatality rate of 1/3 of the average rate of all vehicles or 0.44per 100 million vehicles miles versus 1.48 for all vehicles in the US.

https://fifthwheelst.com/rv-accidents-statistics.html

Brian, your first referenced post used the term accidents, not fatalities. And those of us who work with crash statistics try to use the term crash or collision, not accident, since accident implies that what happened wasn't preventable, and most crashes are. But how do you reconcile your claim with the other numbers listed? Perhaps just give us the numerator and denominator for your 1 RV accident per 12,300 mile claim. Since you also state that RV crashes are 66% less likely, are you then suggesting that non towing crashes are happening at a much shorter interval than every 12,300 miles?

[Bobbo]

Originally Posted by Dennis C

From what I’ve read in multiple places, the weight of the WDH adds to your tow vehicle’s cargo weight, but not to your tongue weight.

To nitpick, it actually counts as hitch weight. It goes into the hitch receiver, and the hitch receiver supports its weight, so if you can only have, say, 1,250# of weight on the hitch, the WD head is part of that 1,250#. It does NOT count as part of the tongue weight for calculating the 12% to 15% trailer tongue weight needed.

[Dennis C]

Originally Posted by Bobbo

To nitpick, it actually counts as hitch weight. It goes into the hitch receiver, and the hitch receiver supports its weight, so if you can only have, say, 1,250# of weight on the hitch, the WD head is part of that 1,250#. It does NOT count as part of the tongue weight for calculating the 12% to 15% trailer tongue weight needed.

That’s what I always thought. However, I’ve read several articles that indicate this isn’t the case. It’s hard to make sense of it all, which is a good reason for me personally to stay well beneath the maximum limits in any category.

[JonDNC]

When I talked about payload being the factor here is a data point. We loaded the truck up for camping and went to the scales, with no trailer we are carrying 964 lbs of payload. With an F350 not an issue but think about with my previous 1/2 ton. That had 1486 lb payload which left 522 lbs for tongue weight which obviously a 27 FBQ International exceeds. Last time lightly loaded we were around 950 lbs of tongue weight, I’ll update when I do the fully loaded pass is a couple of weeks as our departure was delayed unexpectedly.

Those are real numbers which is why many of us suggest 3/4 ton or larger for the larger (25+) trailers.

FWIW I only have a retrax bed cover now, will probably swap out for a cap, bed slide and drawers which weigh more. Need more storage. Not an issue for me other than cost and timing but with 3300 lbs of payload not worried.

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by Daquenzer

And it all sounds very complex and should towing be that complex no one would be able to tow without an engineering degree; which makes one sound all educated and informed. But you simply can’t tell me that the designers of these pickups wouldn’t put something in the manuals about towing lengths if it made a significant difference; especially in the kind of litigous society we have where large manufacturers are putting their capital on the line every time they print a manual; and especially if 3’ made that much difference! I’m not drinking the Kool-Aid.

I can and did tell you trailer inertial moment (not length alone, rather the distribution of mass along that length), makes all the difference in the world. I also told you the manufacturers don't address it in the manuals and I told you why as well. It is because the complexity required to address it for load and trailer type would cause way more confusion and more mistakes. The simplified guidance they provide limiting total trailer weight and tongue weight does a remarkably good job of addressing the complexity in a simple manner. So those people who ignore tongue limits or reduce tongue weight of an Airstream to 10% by adding heavy weight to the rear of the trailer are taking a big risk. The rest of us end up realizing that for towing a travel trailer, the practical capacity is dramatically reduced from max. Take my case of a Ram diesel 2500. It has a towing capacity of 17,800 lb but a tongue limit of 1500 lb. Using 15% tongue weight (required with large trailers at risk of sway) my practical limit is 10,000 not 17,500. The 17,500 clearly applies to gooseneck and 5th wheels.

Finally when it comes to towing there are no miracle combinations. A 3/4 ton can be just as dangeorus as a 1/2 ton.

I don't understand how one can support that claim when comparing apples to apples as in for the same trailer and set-up.

And in fact there is significant material out there that notes a 3/4 ton is less maneuverable than 1/2 tons due to the type of front suspension and higher center of gravity.

1/2 tons are quite a bit more nimble and maneuverable, but the towing combinations as a rule, are less stable.

And I always here the refrain, “I can tow and it just doesn’t seem like my trailer is behind me.” from the 3/4 ton diesel crowd. Frankly, I want to know that I’m towing something.

Yeah it's a pretty mindless claim anyway, and very much incorrect.

Because if there is one thing that causes accidents it is realizing that just because it may not feel like you are towing something going in a straight line, that 3/4 ton with that front suspension and high center of gravity is going to cause problems in an accident avoidance situation.

Well a 3/4 ton won't corner like a race car, and any owner who thinks it can towing or not is in for a rude awakening. They tend to understeer more than 1/2 tons so they won't hold as tight of corner but the difference never comes into play while towing unless you're taking 40 mph recommended corners at 65-70. While towing, a 3/4 ton combination will likely slide into the adjacent lane or the guard rail, but a 1/2 ton is likely to oversteer, jackknife and roll. Pick your poison.

The following article is informative....

https://rvlifemag.com/towing-half-to...e-quarter-ton/

I find that article interesting for what it says, but it's more of a documentary and leaves a lot of important information out.

And finally yes if you are hauling a ton of stuff along with the camper then a 3/4 ton or 1 ton may be the choice. But a 1/2 ton is perfectly fine when towing within it prescribed weight limits and a properly set up suspension and hitch. After all the 1/2 ton of today is really the 3/4 ton of not so many years ago.

True that, many 1/2 tons are in name only.

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by jcl

And....crickets. Come on Brian, show your work and your source. If you have it at hand, what is the issue? Or is it speculation?

Look more carefully at my previous posts. The question was answered. Numbers are from the NHTSA accident reporting database.

Brian, your first referenced post used the term accidents, not fatalities. And those of us who work with crash statistics try to use the term crash or collision, not accident, since accident implies that what happened wasn't preventable, and most crashes are. But how do you reconcile your claim with the other numbers listed? Perhaps just give us the numerator and denominator for your 1 RV accident per 12,300 mile claim. Since you also state that RV crashes are 66% less likely, are you then suggesting that non towing crashes are happening at a much shorter interval than every 12,300 miles?

Call them what you like. Also all my numbers are from the same source and are consistent with each other and as near as I can see, the numbers others mentioned. I don't see any mismatches. Since you work with crash statistics, the NHTSA numbers should be easy for you to obtain, have a look and let me know my error.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by jcl

Was that the case where your children overloaded an Expedition, and told Ford so in discovery, and the manufacturer paid anyway? I always thought that was a great example of a user exceeding payload and that fact not determining liability, and could never understand why you kept referring to it as an example of overload creating liability for the operator.

Yes, that was correct. Good memory! Insurance from Ford (perhaps Firestone also?) at the time, ended up paying. My insurance was sued initially also by one of the passengers due to medical costs, but not sure what ended up happening there..I just know it was settled. They asked a lot of questions about cargo and passengers because of the injury of one of the passengers who was in hospital for a couple weeks with serious back issues, as I recall. They were not overloaded, but the wind, weather, and perhaps the Firestone tires played a part in the accident.

[BayouBiker]

Separately, jcl persisted and pointed out that indeed I made an error in my numbers by using the wrong numerators. I read the data as per million miles but it was per 100 million miles. so many if not all my numbers were off by a factor of 100. one accident every 1.23 million miles traveled and so on. Sorry for the error and thanks to jcl and the others who saw that the numbers didn't look right and pushed back. I will check more carefully when someone next questions a calculation I made.