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Old 12-19-2020, 05:43 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GettinAway View Post
So, of all the RV accidents, how many are driver error? My guess is it would be a huge percentage.
If you include going too fast for conditions as driver error, it approaches 40% of serious accidents. I don't for most excessive speed which I count as sway and oversteer in most cases.
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Old 12-19-2020, 07:37 PM   #202
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Bobbo, I’m thinking it’s time to move back into a cave, a very deep and safe cave. I’m worried sick.
Be sure to keep your generator outside of the cave in a well ventilated area.
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Old 12-19-2020, 08:19 PM   #203
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Had a 23’ for a few months and pulled with our GMC 1/2 ton 4x4 6.2L Denali. Sold and bought a 25’ FlyingCloud.. More comfortable and no trouble towing anywhere.
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Old 12-19-2020, 09:42 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
. A 25' Airstream is a far cry from a 34'. 1/2 tons do really well with 25' and shorter when set up correctly.
The weight difference between a 25’ and a 28’ is about 300lbs when fully loaded. I don’t think that’s going to be a deal killer for a 1/2 ton properly set up.
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Old 12-20-2020, 12:00 AM   #205
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I ride fast motorcycles as well

the late model 1/2 tons are DESIGNED to handle a combined truck/trailer gross weight of 17-18,000 lbs, load it properly, use a WD hitch, drive sanely.
This is more about what YOU can handle rather than the truck.
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Old 12-20-2020, 04:05 AM   #206
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You can’t drive those. They only have 2 wheels. There’s no door for the payload sticker and no spare tire. They look like cool machines but no one could ever drive one.
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Old 12-20-2020, 05:40 AM   #207
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Sorry about my rant yesterday. We all love getting out in our trailers. We all want to be safe, and we all care about our families.
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Old 12-20-2020, 05:50 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Daquenzer View Post
The weight difference between a 25’ and a 28’ is about 300lbs when fully loaded. I don’t think that’s going to be a deal killer for a 1/2 ton properly set up.
.

It is not the weight, it is the length. The change in inertial moments due to that length and the distribution of mass further distant from the trailer axles. Dispersed inertial moment must be managed by the tow vehicle rather than the trailer, and it is the inertial moment that influences combination stability for sway, jackknifes and rollover.

Tongue and trailer weight is used as easy proxies for the stability parameters that matter in towing. It is an unfortunate reality required to keep it simple and easy to understand. Light weight 1/2 ton trucks do not have sufficient mass and cornering stability to hold back and right a long heavy trailer that has gotten latterally out of track, instead it will go out of control. Proper set-up can help, but it can only do so much. They will tow wonderfully as many here report, but they won't if a mistake is made and trailer yaw becomes excessive.

7000 lb 1/2 ton trucks excel safely pulling 25 foot 7000 lb and smaller travel trailers. They do okay stability wise with 27' trailers. Over 27 and you are far safer with a better matched vehicle.

Towing limits are set using trailers with far smaller inertial moments per unit mass than Airstreams. This is why a 7000 lb truck is said to be capable of towing a 12,500 lb load. After adjusting for inertial differences, the safe limit for travel trailers is generally 20-30% less.
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Old 12-20-2020, 06:20 AM   #209
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You can’t drive those. They only have 2 wheels. There’s no door for the payload sticker and no spare tire. They look like cool machines but no one could ever drive one.
Joke, ridicule and laugh all you want. Evidence that 5000-7000 lb GVWR tow vehicles hauling trailers with 50-200% greater inertial moments remain stable at highway speeds even if the trailer yaw becomes excessive is the only way to demonstrate these combinations are safe. Experienced drivers of course never let yaw get away from them and thus never experience combination instability.

Vehicle manufacturers on the other hand crunch the numbers and do the road tests to set safe capacity limits so the vehicle will not go out of control even if trailer yaw gets away from the driver and exceeds say 2-3 degrees. They ensure the combination continues to respond to driver and computer input so the combination can be returned to a safe orientation without spiraling out of control and crashing. So far, nobody on this site has brought any objective evidence that these overloaded combinations are in fact safe and stable. Instead, they take pot shots at the messengers.
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Old 12-20-2020, 06:37 AM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
If you include going too fast for conditions as driver error, it approaches 40% of serious accidents. I don't for most excessive speed which I count as sway and oversteer in most cases.
Any facts or studies to back this claim...
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Old 12-20-2020, 07:41 AM   #211
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Duck Duck Go is your friend, Richard. Plenty of online articles listing order of RV accident rates, some with percentage breakdowns. Then there is the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration which keeps the detailed data and provides a breakdown. The data are gathered from required police and insurance industry reporting, generally the source of these summary articles. Researchers publish articles based on NHTSA data for specific topics of interest including various trailer type accidents and RV accidents. I encourage you to take a look and see if you reach the same conclusion.

Curious though why you doubt it. More curious why, if you're interested, you didn't go look it up before expressing doubt.
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Old 12-20-2020, 07:46 AM   #212
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WOW!

Just read thru this entire thing and need HELP!

I have a 2015 GMC Sierra Crew Cab 5.3 4x4 Z71

Not lifted, Cooper Tires rated at 3525

Maybe 200 pounds of extras (Aluminum Tonneau and aluminum motorized AMP steps)

Door sticker on truck says Occ and cargo not exceeding 1720.

Rated (near as I can find) 9200 pounds trailering.

Can't find ANYTHING about max tongue weight or other.

It has the trailering options as in engine brake.

Putting in an order for a 2021 25' front bedroom GT.

It says Base weight 6074.

Max Weight 7300.

Tongue weight 882.

Going to a ProPride (200# additional?)

I have no idea some of the GVWR GCWR RGAWR

I THINK the GVW is around 5372...

How do I figure if it is OK? WHERE do I get these figures? I have googled the snot outta this and am getting nowhere quick.

Signed - Unladen English Sparrow
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Old 12-20-2020, 08:27 AM   #213
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Check your owner’s manual for tongue weights. I have a similar truck (same generation, same engine). My truck is rated for a tongue weight of 700 lbs., which increases to 1,250 lbs. when using a weight distribution hitch.

If your truck has the max trailering package, then you probably have a 3.42 axle ratio, but I don’t know that for certain. Which transmission do you have? I owned a 2015 GMC before my current 2018, and it had a 6-speed transmission. My 2018 has an 8-speed transmission, which is helpful.

GMC doesn’t do a great job of putting all the required information in one place. You have to dig around to find what you need. As an example, my truck came from the factory with the “trailering equipment package”, as listed on the window sticker. A description of the contents of this package can’t be found anywhere. Ultimately, through lots of research, I determined that it’s really just the integrated brake controller, the trailer wiring harness, and the hitch receiver. It would be nice if GMC would make this stuff easier to find.

I found my GVWR on one of the door jamb stickers, which was 7,200 lbs.
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Old 12-20-2020, 08:45 AM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
.

It is not the weight, it is the length. The change in inertial moments due to that length and the distribution of mass further distant from the trailer axles. Dispersed inertial moment must be managed by the tow vehicle rather than the trailer, and it is the inertial moment that influences combination stability for sway, jackknifes and rollover.

Tongue and trailer weight is used as easy proxies for the stability parameters that matter in towing. It is an unfortunate reality required to keep it simple and easy to understand. Light weight 1/2 ton trucks do not have sufficient mass and cornering stability to hold back and right a long heavy trailer that has gotten latterally out of track, instead it will go out of control. Proper set-up can help, but it can only do so much. They will tow wonderfully as many here report, but they won't if a mistake is made and trailer yaw becomes excessive.

7000 lb 1/2 ton trucks excel safely pulling 25 foot 7000 lb and smaller travel trailers. They do okay stability wise with 27' trailers. Over 27 and you are far safer with a better matched vehicle.

Towing limits are set using trailers with far smaller inertial moments per unit mass than Airstreams. This is why a 7000 lb truck is said to be capable of towing a 12,500 lb load. After adjusting for inertial differences, the safe limit for travel trailers is generally 20-30% less.
And where do you get your numbers? By what authority do you make these statements? I pull a 28’ international, use a propride hitch, and have absolutely no sway. Where in the manuals created by Ford do they put a limit on trailer length? Again, name your sources. I kind of get the feeling that much of this stuff is made up. In fact why would Ford allow the BLISS system to go beyond 30’ to 33’ if trailer length was such and issue? Again name your sources instead of simply an opinion. In fact nothing is stated in the towing guides about trailer length. NOTHING.

https://www.roamingtimes.com/2018/03...-sway-control/
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Old 12-20-2020, 08:57 AM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renderit View Post
WOW!

Just read thru this entire thing and need HELP!

I have a 2015 GMC Sierra Crew Cab 5.3 4x4 Z71

Not lifted, Cooper Tires rated at 3525

Maybe 200 pounds of extras (Aluminum Tonneau and aluminum motorized AMP steps)

Door sticker on truck says Occ and cargo not exceeding 1720.

Rated (near as I can find) 9200 pounds trailering.

Can't find ANYTHING about max tongue weight or other.

It has the trailering options as in engine brake.

Putting in an order for a 2021 25' front bedroom GT.

It says Base weight 6074.

Max Weight 7300.

Tongue weight 882.

Going to a ProPride (200# additional?)

I have no idea some of the GVWR GCWR RGAWR

I THINK the GVW is around 5372...

How do I figure if it is OK? WHERE do I get these figures? I have googled the snot outta this and am getting nowhere quick.

Signed - Unladen English Sparrow

Between the stickers inside the driver's door and the 2015 Trailering Guide (click on link--this is the Chevy version, but identical to the GMC variant) you should find all your numbers, limits, and available bandwidths.

Take a look at this document and then fire away with all your questions. Someone around here will be happy to opine on your particular rig.
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Old 12-20-2020, 09:04 AM   #216
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I THINK I have the 3.42 rear end
15000 GCWR
9600 Max trailer weight
Tongue weight max (with WD hitch) 1200

Using AS numbers we probably will hit 871+200 Propride = 1071

What will be my limiting factors here?

Figuring 2-3 adults at roughly 320.

How much can go in the truck and the camper?

Figuring on carrying heavy tools in the back of the trailer.

Almost never carry more than 10 gallons of water.

USUALLY dump every morning. so figure carry 5-10 gallons clean water in Black tank.

Can't cat scale it when I don't have the unit...

And by the by the truck is a 2014 not 15.
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Old 12-20-2020, 09:25 AM   #217
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In my experience the most limiting number for most of us is payload. Which you indicated is 1720.

Add up the tongue weight, hitch weight, cover weight passenger weight, dog weight etc. one thing you can do without the trailer is load up you truck with the stuff you think you’ll take camping, fill up the fuel, and then with a full passenger load weigh the truck at the scale. Take that number and subtract from the GVW on the sticker for the truck. That will tell you how much extra payload you still have. If it’s under what you estimate the tongue weight and hitch to weigh you are technically ok on paper. If not figure out how much weight you need to loose and where will it come from.

I found when initially bought our trailer we had a half ton with about 1500 lbs of payload and that was not enough for our load out. So upgraded the truck.
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Old 12-20-2020, 09:48 AM   #218
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There’s no doubt that it can be difficult to calculate what you can safely tow with all the various limits and parameters. From what I’ve read in multiple places, the weight of the WDH adds to your tow vehicle’s cargo weight, but not to your tongue weight. I don’t have a ProPride WDH, so I don’t know anything about that system, but does it really weigh 200 lbs.? That seems heavy, but again, I don’t know the answer there.

I think the things you’ll need to watch carefully include the truck’s limit on cargo and passenger capacity, the the GVWR for your tow vehicle and trailer, and the GCWR for your rig. You can make a good estimate of how all this stuff works together, but your best bet is to head to the scale once you’ve got everything.
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Old 12-20-2020, 09:57 AM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renderit View Post
I THINK I have the 3.42 rear end
15000 GCWR
9600 Max trailer weight
Tongue weight max (with WD hitch) 1200

Using AS numbers we probably will hit 871+200 Propride = 1071

What will be my limiting factors here?

Figuring 2-3 adults at roughly 320.

How much can go in the truck and the camper?

Figuring on carrying heavy tools in the back of the trailer.

Almost never carry more than 10 gallons of water.

USUALLY dump every morning. so figure carry 5-10 gallons clean water in Black tank.

Can't cat scale it when I don't have the unit...

And by the by the truck is a 2014 not 15.
You will want to load your truck so that it is at GVRW weight biased forward as much as possible with the trailer attached and WD tensioned up. Then whatever you can't carry in the truck because of effective payload limit, you will have to put in the trailer. Heavy stuff wants to be as close to the axles as possible. Load the trailer so at the CAT it shows 1000-1150 lb tongue weight before WD tension is applied. Since you are using a Propride, you will get better performance on the low end of gross tongue weight so shoot for 1000 lb or as close as you can reasonably get without resorting to moving heavy stuff to the rear of the trailer.

Fresh water in the fresh tank will not affect tongue weight, just the max trailer weight of 7300.

You have a good combination, and it will do nicely if set up correctly.
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Old 12-20-2020, 10:21 AM   #220
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thank you for the entertainment mingled with safe advice

What a range of comments on an innocent question of towing a certain AS with a half ton TV.

While providing comic relief, I wonder if there is a recommended chart that Bayou Biker may have that shows recommended TV’s based on the trailers, weight and length?

Anyone who has been towing anything over the years has a visual history of what some people tow long, heavy trailers with that may have been based on what their TV was when they purchased their trailer. We have seen AS’s towed with Subaru WRX, set up by CANAM, and other surprising combinations.

A chart would be a great reference tool for the nearly weekly inquiries that are entered into this forum.

I believe the pros and cons of each TV could be addressed.
Examples:
F150
1. Pro - We loved the maneuverability,
2. Cons -
A. we were over the rear axle weight rating,
B. 2009 F150 could not manage gears 4 - 6. We could not turn off overdrive gears
C. Experienced “push” when semi’s, class A’s, etc. passed us on the highway
F250
1. Pros -
A. LOVE the ability to manage the six speed transmission.
B. No more “push” when semi’s and others pass us.
C. Enjoy towing within all recommended weights, and were impressed when our truck was delivered by the 3500 lb payload.
D. Comfortable ride - we went out to dinner last week with another AS couple who have a half ton 4x4 TV and they were almost giddy about our more comfortable ride.
E. Ability to purchase a longer trailer without replacing TV.
2. Cons -
A. Lack of maneuverability - u turns require 3 lanes vice 2 lanes with the half ton
B. Higher step in height
C. The perceived risk of “death wobble” that has been addressed many times, including on the YouTube channel: “Keep Your Daydream”. Ford issued a recall, but our VIN was not on the list. Perhaps 4x2 are less prone to this problem?

For all the folks that love to address MPG. Personal opinion - MPG towing is low, but acceptable since we all determined to tow an AS behind our TV! And to no one’s surprise Diesel engines MPG always is higher than gas engines. Anyone drive a Volvo branded Ford Focus in Sweden? We did and averaged about 55 MPG!
RANGE is the more important thing to discuss than MPG, and explains why some folks have installed larger tanks to avoid the dreaded enroute refueling with the AS in tow, from tanks in the bed to a larger tank under the truck.
1. F150 4.6L, 4x2, Supercab, 3.55 rear, 5 and a half foot bed, with ARE topper, - averages follow - towing at 60-65MPH, about 10, not towing - highway, at 72MPH, 19MPG, City - 15MPG. 26.5 gallon gas tank determined range. We rarely went over 200 miles towing on a tank of gas, which required an enroute refuel. Newer F150’s offer a 36 gallon tank with one of the tow packages, which would be a welcome addition to the range of this TV.
2. F250 6.2L, 4x2, Crew Cab 3.73 rear, 6 and 3/4 foot bed with ARE topper averages follow - towing at 65MPH, about 10, not towing - highway at 72MPH, 16MPG, City - 12-13MPG. 34 gallon gas tank allows us to go about 300 miles towing, which we enjoyed no enroute gas stops required last week on the flat geography from Savannah to Melbourne’s Land Yacht Harbor. F250’s with 8 foot bed have a 48 gallon tank.

Recommendation to all of us that “troll” these requests for advice on TV’s - rather than support one product over another, perhaps we can provide the towing charts that will allow the poster to make an informed decision? These posters probably encounter the same advice I have received at dealer’s lots, like: “this vehicle is rated to tow over 10,000lbs, which to me is incomplete info. Most half tons on dealers lots do not even include factory tow mirrors!

To everyone who has read the comments this far - have a Merry Christmas and be very thankful for, a. the ability both physical and financially to be a member of the AS family and b. that we live in the best country in the world, even with our flaw’s!
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