Tow Vehicle Nonsense: Common Cents & Dollars:

[Ray Eklund]

Everyone has a Fairy Tale to tell, until things go wrong. They have their hands in their pants pocket, waiting for the wrecker and tow truck to arrive.

An undersized Trailer to an oversized Tow Vehicle is not a Fairy Tale.

An oversized Trailer to an undersized Tow Vehicle is a Horror Tale being written and the last chapter has not been written, yet.

If you have never ridden a Horse in Wyoming and say you know what your are doing... you will be walking 'odd' for a few days or a week.

If you do not want a stiff ride of a Tow Vehicle that exceeds the needs of a Travel Trailer, get a smaller Travel Trailer that is suitable for YOUR Tow Vehicle.

It is not the Car Salesman's fault if you like a sporty vehicle to tow an oversized Travel Trailer, so the vehicle still can be parked at the Office underground garage.

A Tow Vehicle and Travel Trailer mismatch can be judged:

1- Visually seeing the Tow Vehicle is small and the Travel Trailer is longer and obviously heavier.

2- The 'magic hitch' makes mismatches a 'perfect' combination in some people's judgment.

3- An adequate Tow Vehicle is just that. Border line 'adequate'.

4- I, by pure accident, purchased a new F350 4x4 Diesel Twin Turbo. I was reading Fairy Tales about SUV's towing large trailers. My experience towing told me... too many Airstream Owners are writing Tow Vehicle Fairy Tales.

5- I discovered that most misinformation can be found on any Travel Trailer Forum. Confirmation by other Lemmings is not Fact. Your Fairy Tale Tow Vehicle may result with a rude awakening, some day.

Mountain climbers without protection... better know what they are doing.

Buyers of Travel Trailers and Tow Vehicles combinations 'should know what they are doing'. The RV Industry would go belly up if they told many potential customers- "Sorry, we cannot attach this trailer to your vehicle. It will not pass our better judgement of your Tow Vehicle to this Travel Trailer."

This Fairy Tale has a happy ending. I skipped the beginning read the last chapter. You are still writing yours. May it be a Good Fairy Tale. I like happy endings.

[baggs]

bravo mate
bravo...
yep cant agree more
TV should be heavier and well within tow limits

here down under at trade shows ...its happened twice... for australian built travel trailer brands to gently ask what is your TV?...followed by "thats not enough"

i rectified my problem years later buy being well within the limits and choosing a suitable TV

well done

[John Ware]

You see lots of threads where the question is asked if an F150 can pull a so and so trailer and the question should be can an F150 pull a so and so trailer safely. Most of the time the guy has already picked out his F150 dream truck and will get it anyway when he really needs an F250 or even an F350. Of course he will also hear about all the 'magic hitches' and also hear from what the Chevy and Dodge people use .

[r3z]

I definitely feel like the dealers have a part to play here but they want to sell trailers so they have a conflict of interest. I have only seen one dealership that made me fill out a form about my tow vehicle and the door sticker, but even in that case not sure how much allowance they allow.

[RamRider]

Well stated - but I bet we will see a new post today about "can my little car or truck or SUV pull my new $150,000 30 foot AS" and there will a dozen answers stating "we do it all the time, no problem".
When we hit the road, our payload approaches 2000 lbs which is getting close to the max payload of our 3/4 ton. How can that be, well we are small people less than 270 pounds combined, we have two electric bikes (150 lbs) Blackstone griddle plus spare tank of propane (around 100 pounds or so, tools, misc stuff we might need (boards etc), full tank of fuel, air compressor, 1100 lbs of tongue wt, - it gets heavy - way more than a typical 1/2 ton or SUV can handle. But hey, their 1/2 ton or suv can head down the road at 70+ mph no problem, Best answer to some one asking can I pull this is "good Luck" or "call Billy Bob and he will figure it out for you". Hopefully their wreck is no where around us when it happens.

[SilvaStreama]

As a solo female traveler looking for an F250 prior to covid, my dealership had run out (it was October), and the new ones hadn’t arrived yet. I thought I would go into a 350 but they only had duallys. Been there and done that and hated it. He then suggested a 450. It too was a dually but it had a different axle and suspension than the 350. It turned on a dime! And it was not much more expensive than the 350! I was sold. I’m lucky that it is not my everyday driver but the platinum is a pleasure to drive, with or without the 33’ classic on a Hensley hitch behind it! It gives me confidence that I have enough vehicle for the Airstream that I have should I have to make any avoidance maneuvers, or climb/descend and mountains in the future!

[Ray Eklund]

A solo woman traveler, towing a 33 foot Classic with a 'dually' does not need confidence. You already had what it takes to travel up and beyond. Honk, honk... move over SilvaStreama is in the rear view mirror.

Everyone will now want to know what your Tire Pressure is and say the choice of tow vehicle will destroy your Airstream. Not so. Like my F350 4x4 Diesel... on the ball... smooth sailing in any gale, cross wind, head wind and no traction loss in a heavy rainstorm.

When I cross a dip in a road, there is no stiff rock and rolling from the trailer through the ball to the front of the tow vehicle. The combination is solid, secure and steady. If someone is using WD Bars, you will feel the tension to the tow vehicle from the trailer. It is hard to explain, but I noticed this stiffness was eliminated with a heavier tow vehicle and not needing WD or SC bars.

The compromise for many would be if the Tow Vehicle is also needed for every day driving. In Wyoming a pickup truck IS an everyday vehicle. And is 4x4 needed as the debate, although the majority have 4x4 vehicles.

Although cattle ranches and farms today... ATV's eat less and need less attention than saddled horses moving livestock from one pasture to another. If you apply for Summer Work at a Ranch in Wyoming... they look at your vehicle first, then at you.

If you plan to use your travel trailer, of any brand, more often, a heavy duty tow vehicle and a smaller convenience vehicle for town is a good compromise.

If you do not plan to use the travel trailer as often, then you have a more difficult choice. We have a second vehicle in addition to the F350. I will drive the F350 locally to keep it lubricated, but have one vehicle for most errands.

A dually in Wyoming had been considered the Cowboy Cadillac for decades and still is considered THE tow vehicle for livestock, horses and horse trailers with living accommodations. Up there with Race Car Drivers.

My 2016 F350 Diesel 4x4 has 80,000 miles of local and distance driving, hauling and towing. I like the height from the interior cab, large adjustable mirrors and if we need to haul anything... load it. The choice is not for everyone. Those with automobiles give you lots of room. All they see are large differentials, a large bumper and tires. Ahhh... security while traveling.

[TerraYacht]

Interesting discussion since my perspective is different: my Airstream is a Class A WorkHorse, 18000# fully loaded, towing a ~3000# toad. I have a new backup camera so I can be reminded that I am towing.

I see many Forum questions about "...towing safely" but many of those folks are only focused on weights and "capacity," with no discussion about stopping safely. Notable exceptions are the folks on this chat today with a more focused safety perspective.

Keep the shiny side up...

[Ray Eklund]

Anyone, well most, understand the theory of Good Operational Brakes in the Tow Vehicle and Trailer in tow.

The Forest Service leaves lots of healthy pine trees to line the edges of the FS or BLM roads. Some trees will have signs with arrows, so those living Out of State travelers some advance that the Road.

No guard rails needed which makes money available for possible signs.

Possible Signs you will find, or wish they had...

1- Road Ends in 25 feet or 25 miles ahead. (you determine)
2- Road Closed in 25 feet or an unspecified distance ahead.
3- Lumbering ahead. Log Trucks have Right of Way.
4- Unimproved Road ahead- Both Directions.
5- Cattle Guard ahead. May be Sleeping, Travel with Care.
6- Cattle Range... Gun Range... ATV Route... Horseback Riders possible...
7- County Maintenance Ends... 'Some' Maintenance afterwards. No U Turns.
8- Speed Limits - Do Not Apply when you are parked on a Curve
9- If you have to go, you know GO... find a turn off. Safer than the road.
10- Camping prohibited where Bear may be Prowling or Hungry.
11- Low hanging branches. Lots of Air Conditioner parts for free.
12- Out of State Speed Limit 20mph. In State... 65mph...
13- Brakes not Needed going UPHill...
14- High Clearance Vehicles Only... and you are too late to turn around

Get the 3 inch lift and 16 inch Michelins for clearance. Have a 4x4 higher clearance tow vehicle, which excludes 70% of luxury vehicles and those still having a rear bumper attached.

I am typing this on my Lap Top, while driving, eating a sandwich and reading a map. Skill is learned one step at a time and not taught in a Hospital or Ambulance. Be prepared.

If you need our help if stuck... we will supply gloves, shovels and the folding chairs for Nancy and Myself. Beer must be cold, Coors at mountain temperature... is OK. We are thirsty when watching and being entertained. Live television experience in Wyoming.

Next trip. A 4x4 is best, bring gloves, shovels and lawn chairs. You are a fast learner. I like that...

[QC TORPEDO]

Ray says: "The RV Industry would go belly up if they told many potential customers- "Sorry, we cannot attach this trailer to your vehicle. It will not pass our better judgement of your Tow Vehicle to this Travel Trailer."
In fact, while pulling a trailer on a dealer-enforced test drive, I saw the dealer refuse to hook up a trailer they sold to a vehicle brought in by the buyer. My salesman said that the dealer will NOT allow a trailer to leave the lot on a vehicle they determine to have an insufficient tow rating. Good for them! I sent many friends and acquaintances to this salesman at this dealer over the years.
Needless to say, after 40 or so years in business, this dealer is gone, sold to a multi-state chain.
So, this tale was happy, but now is gone. I have no idea how the new dealer operates.

[switz]

You can't learn to swim very well without getting into the water.....

In October of 2012, I got a burr under my saddle and after remote research on line and by phone while in the UK, ordered a 2013 25FB International Serenity (made in July 2012 at 26 units per week thus never any build issues) sight unseen from a dealer in Los Angles. All I had to do was take my 2007 Mercedes for a little 2,100 mile drive from Phoenix to CanAm in London, Ontario, Canada to reinforce the receiver and shorten and slightly bend the Hensely Arrow stinger.

I returned to Phoenix and then drove to Los Angles where the 25FB was attached using the Hensley Arrow. A very interesting and long story evolved on the trip back to Arizona, not the fault of either the car or trailer but a wayward nail lying at a bad location that became the flat right rear tire and the spare was a small donut spare....

Discovered that the actually 3.0L turbo V6 diesel with seven speed transmission was most happy at 55 mph which was fine for the first ever Airstream towing experience, especially at night on I-10. After loading the 25FB with everything I thought we needed, the Mercedes communicated it was not really happy with the now 6,900 pound 25FB behind it.

The scale receipt from the 25FB when it was loaded, full diesel fuel and the wife and me with our stuff in the Mercedes:

Scale......Rating
3,050......3,085...Front
3,320......3,525...Rear
5,860......6,000...Trailer (25FB)

The numbers show we were maxed out. The Mercedes had the power and large disc brakes but it was a load.

Our 25FB had a literature tongue weight of 833 pounds. After the Hensley Arrow and Tekonsha Prodigy RF brake control were mounted along with full water and propane tanks, the added street side and rear awnings and a 160 watt solar panel, the number was 1,150 pounds. After loading all of stuff with tools at the back, the tongue weight was 1,175 pounds. The Hensley Arrow was rated for 1,200 pounds.

Problem was cured by acquiring one of the last 2012 Ram 2500HD Cummins diesel pickups. On the way back to Phoenix from the Indianapolis Dodge dealer, I stopped by Kelderman Manufacturing in Oskaloosa, Iowa to install an air bag level ride system (air bags front and rear).

By now there was a resuscitated Airstream dealership in Mesa, AZ and the sales manager stated I now had the proper tow vehicle and it could tow any Airstream. We had a couple of short trips and decided the 25FB was not the floor plan for us so we ordered a 2014 31' Classic which we still have and use. We did keep the Hensley Arrow from the 25FB but put a ProPride on the Classic.

One of the last 25 24' tri-axle Classics built came on their lot but the numbers just would not work out with the 11,000 pound GVW of that trailer.

We then added a 2015 23D International Serenity for a different project and put the Hensley Arrow on it. Since we replaced the OEM 14" tires and wheels with the same size 15" Sendel wheels and Michelin tires we used on the 25FB, the elevation of the Hensley was the same as on the 23D. The. basic hitch settings transferred right over. The Mercedes was much happier with a 6,069 pound narrow body Airstream and we towed at 55 mph seeing 16 mpg on the level roads.

At 207,000 miles, the Mercedes provided notice of retirement and it was replaced by a 2021 Toyota Land Cruiser. We switched to a ProPride hitch as it had more adjustability for the 8" difference in receiver openings between the 23D and the LC. The LC was the best choice for us because it was also designed to go off the beaten path and it ws made by Toyota.

Both of our rigs have scale numbers within the limits of the axles and tires of both vehicles. The mission statements are appropriate for both rigs.

I adjusted the ProPrides using my own two four wheel scale sets so I know the numbers for each tire location and could dial in the amount of lift for the leverage arms needed for each installation. The ProPrides are rated for 1,400 pound tongue weights.

I weighed a friends rig which was a F150 and an older 25FB. It did not have all of the water they usually carried in the bed, but there was no way to get more of the load to move off the rear axle of the truck to the front axle of the truck and the trailer to the point the truck was not overloaded. All the information that we generated was left with him to ponder.

[John Ware]

The farmer needs a new horse. He pulls his heavy hay wagon twice a year and goes into town every Saturday night. Does he get a Morgan horse that can easily pull his wagon or does he get a Pinto Quarter horse that struggles with his wagon but the girls in town really like his pretty horse?

[Ray Eklund]

I had a 2006 Toyota 4.7L 4x4 with shell. This is pre Full Sized Tundra 5.7L by, one year.

The smallest double axle in 2006 was a 23 foot Safari. It came with Marathon 14 inch tires, Load Range C.

The dealership would have sold me anything I wanted under 27 feet. Many lengths to choose from on the lot.

The sales woman was an experienced Trailer Owner. She said this Toyota Pickup would have no problem towing the 23 foot Airstream.

The Dealer sold me an Equalizer Hitch with the chain adjustments and an adjustable rod that provided Sway Control. You tightened a nut to to increase SC, or loosened to reduce SC.

Later I discovered the Weight Distribution could be adjusted by going UP a Link, or if too much, go DOWN a Link. The front of the Toyota was up and the rear was down. No problem. I did not know any difference.

The 2006 Toyota did tow and with the brake adjustment on the Airstream, did assist the stopping very well. On a paved road which had 'waves' in the road, it was like a ride at a Carnival.

I thought that had to be the 'towing experience' for everyone.

I knew after using and towing, the 2006 was much to light. The 2007 Tundras had the 5.7L engine and I waited until the 2008's came out and the cam shaft issue had been solved.

I sold the 2006 Toyota that went to Canada, as that year was in demand there. It sold for a premium price, as mine was clean and nice.

Bought a 2008 5.7L 4x4 Tundra. Wonderful match tow vehicle to trailer. And the next level of Equalizer Hitch with bars.

Later I spoke with the Sales Woman who had trailer experience and explained that the 2006 was much too light for a 23 foot Airstream. I asked her what was her tow vehicle and trailer?

She lived in a Mobile Home Trailer.

So much for giving advice to a Newbie and being an Experienced Trailer Owner.

[Rick n Mary]

Originally Posted by RamRider

Well stated - but I bet we will see a new post today about "can my little car or truck or SUV pull my new $150,000 30 foot AS" and there will a dozen answers stating "we do it all the time, no problem".
When we hit the road, our payload approaches 2000 lbs which is getting close to the max payload of our 3/4 ton. How can that be, well we are small people less than 270 pounds combined, we have two electric bikes (150 lbs) Blackstone griddle plus spare tank of propane (around 100 pounds or so, tools, misc stuff we might need (boards etc), full tank of fuel, air compressor, 1100 lbs of tongue wt, - it gets heavy - way more than a typical 1/2 ton or SUV can handle. But hey, their 1/2 ton or suv can head down the road at 70+ mph no problem, Best answer to some one asking can I pull this is "good Luck" or "call Billy Bob and he will figure it out for you". Hopefully their wreck is no where around us when it happens.

THANK YOU!!!
Finally a post with people with brains!
I have been a lurker and rarely make a post.
I usually and often just pass on by those post about tow vehicles.
Like you say they usually end with “I do it all the time”.

Me? I bought a 2005 Dodge Ram 3500 DRW (dual rear wheel) with “only” a six cylinder engine.
Ha Ha it’s a 6 liter, 6 cylinder engine, 5.9 to be exact, it burns oil, 13.5 MPG, 13.4K GVWR. AKA a diesel. No emissions except a catalytic, my truck is old, 350k miles, I definitely do not want or envy those with new trucks with all the extra computers to go bad on it. I can diagnose and repair a lot of thing yet, can you?

My TV was purchased because I was in the market for a 30+ foot fifth wheel toy hauler. GCWR 18k-24k….The reason I’m on this forum is because I “settled???????” On a 25 foot Safari AS my neighbor was selling. Rarely moved so….. no brainer. Sorry to say I AM NOT LOOKING BACK!

The few posts I have read, are all the same, it will work, I do it….., etc. I have had near calls! not too close, but I am very confident my rig will handle most events.
I have been an AS owner for only 2 1/2 years, so I am just starting, just retired so my time will still be learning and exploring.

To end, thank you, it’s better to be over prepared than under prepared, and I hope more people find and read this thread and my post to figure that a big truck is better than a small sports car. AS has popularized themselves as being pulled by a bicycle, times have changed, weights have increased. Safety has increased and is closely looked at with insurance companies. Read between the lines and good luck, happy travels. Rick

[field & stream]

People who disrespect drunk driving laws also argue that proof they are right is that “they do it all the time”! No problem yet…….

[Ray Eklund]

Last week took the 2021 Land Cruiser in for its Second Free Oil and Filter change. That was included so Toyota can make sure the engine is not in need of any repairs and maybe they look over the drive gear... who knows?

I take it in to Toyota Service at our local Dealer. No tire rotation. No air pressure changes. Just the Oil and Filter service. OK? Only 9,000 miles and this is the second time for the FREE service and Oil Change. The oil looks perfect. I check and service my trailers and vehicles.

I pick up the Land Cruiser and park it in the garage at home. Back out the next morning... some fresh oil under the oil pan skid plate. Call Toyota. "Bring it in, or we can tow it and send a crew to clean up the oil on the garage floor".

"I checked the oil level, OK."

Service Manager says... it was a sloppy oil change.

I questioned, Sloppy Oil Change? Never heard of that.

He says, "The LC is on the lift, I will show you." I am always eager to see what is up. I go into the shop. Wow... they were full of vehicles in a large warehouse sized garage.

I mentioned when I made OSHA inspections, if something did not make sense, something is not right. Sloppy does not make sense. The main skid plate should not have oil still sitting on it, as it has to be removed to drain the oil.

The skid plate, where the oil drain plug would be removed,... was covered with fresh oil. The Service Manager says, Sloppy Oil Change. But it is sitting on the floor and has lots of clean oil on it. They did not even wipe it clean... which was another poor example of Service.

I asked, where is the Oil Filter, I do not see the canister oil filter like my older LC 5.7 Liter.

It is.... ummm.... it is around.... then a smaller skid plate was up front that needed to be removed. There it ..... is.... well, lets see. No canister filter, but a small filter that is inserted into a small cylinder up into a difficult to get to location.

OK... but I ask... How... DID... The... oil... get onto the top of the lower skid plate? I asked... something does not make any sense. I do my own oil changes and this has never happened to me, ever. It is impossible.

He then began a 'song and dance'. Then showed me a used Black Oil Filter and what a clean one looks like. So....? What about mine. I have 8,900 miles on this LC. The oil was never black. If I did not use this second oil change, I would lose it and paid for it in the price of the vehicle.

How do I even know the oil filter was changed?

He then admitted that the upper panel could not be removed where the 'pit oil change area is, but they determined to do ALL new Land Cruisers in the New Vehicle Prep area where they do the work on LIFTS and not below the vehicle in a pit.

OK.... but how did the oil get onto the large skid plate?

******** The same service song and dance I had with the Front End Indents on the 27FBQ with front storage compartment.

This is the Modern Service Toyota is giving customers. I cannot tell if they changed the filter, as I would put a date on the canister with a magic marker on the F350 so I know when I changed the oil.

Airstream Service... Why... is... it... my.... fault? Same run around.

Pathetic. We are in a New World of Service. They assume no body knows Jack about doing anything and give you the BILL.

Or... "It is your fault. Not ours."

[Ray Eklund]

The skid plate is a hard plastic and there is a Tennis ball sized opening in the rear center. I would wager, Las Vegas Odds, that this is also an access point to get to the Drain Plug to the Oil Pan.

So the Oil and Filter Change... has been an Oil Change. When the oil flows out of after the drain plug is removed, it flows hard and fast. That splashes all over the top side of the Skid Plate and a lot of residual oil is laying in there. It has only one way to get out... and it is to drain out of this Tennis Ball hole.

If you have a late model 5.7L Land Cruiser with the skid plate and have oil dripping onto your garage floor... this has to be the problem.

You pay for an Oil and Filter change... and get the Oil Change and mess.
******
I noticed a Front End Separation Thread new post among the Front Bed models with the storage compartment in Front. Many are getting the Indents and some worse.

This is another example of misdirection. I paid for an Equalizer Hitch that came with 1,000 pound bars, the Dealer sets it up... and it is my fault that the hitch is too stiff.

I now tow On the Ball... perfectly, any speed, any road, any condition. I believed that your Airstream would Sway Violently and flip over without Sway Control. Now I discover... it was all a great Sales Campaign. I am not happy about that either.

Again... who can you trust today with work done on any mechanical, warranty covered injury to your property. I change my own oil and filters at home. As well as Air and Fuel Filters. It is done correctly and properly. The Oil is taken to the City Recycle Center for disposal in the used oil containers.

It really is disgusting how things are going. If you have a reliable Dealer... you are lucky. It seems that service is not for the Customer, but serving the people giving you some or none of what you are due.

[baggs]

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund

The skid plate is a hard plastic and there is a Tennis ball sized opening in the rear center. I would wager, Las Vegas Odds, that this is also an access point to get to the Drain Plug to the Oil Pan.

So the Oil and Filter Change... has been an Oil Change. When the oil flows out of after the drain plug is removed, it flows hard and fast. That splashes all over the top side of the Skid Plate and a lot of residual oil is laying in there. It has only one way to get out... and it is to drain out of this Tennis Ball hole.

If you have a late model 5.7L Land Cruiser with the skid plate and have oil dripping onto your garage floor... this has to be the problem.

You pay for an Oil and Filter change... and get the Oil Change and mess.
******
I noticed a Front End Separation Thread new post among the Front Bed models with the storage compartment in Front. Many are getting the Indents and some worse.

This is another example of misdirection. I paid for an Equalizer Hitch that came with 1,000 pound bars, the Dealer sets it up... and it is my fault that the hitch is too stiff.

I now tow On the Ball... perfectly, any speed, any road, any condition. I believed that your Airstream would Sway Violently and flip over without Sway Control. Now I discover... it was all a great Sales Campaign. I am not happy about that either.

Again... who can you trust today with work done on any mechanical, warranty covered injury to your property. I change my own oil and filters at home. As well as Air and Fuel Filters. It is done correctly and properly. The Oil is taken to the City Recycle Center for disposal in the used oil containers.

It really is disgusting how things are going. If you have a reliable Dealer... you are lucky. It seems that service is not for the Customer, but serving the people giving you some or none of what you are due.

i too after a lot of digital weighing and thought no tow only on ball..WDH is not needed with a correct setup in my eyes

[Andy543]

Originally Posted by baggs

i too after a lot of digital weighing and thought no tow only on ball..WDH is not needed with a correct setup in my eyes

The greatest joy in life is tossing out your WD hitch and finding out that you never really needed it.

[Andy543]

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund

I now tow On the Ball... perfectly, any speed, any road, any condition. I believed that your Airstream would Sway Violently and flip over without Sway Control. Now I discover... it was all a great Sales Campaign. I am not happy about that either.

I agree with this. Just before you write the check for your new Airstream the dealer will tell you that you need a $5000 hitch. If you don't buy it you will surely die.

Another way that dealers use WD hitches to enhance their profits is by selling you a larger, more expensive trailer that is too big for your tow vehicle. All you have to do is buy a WD hitch and you'll be OK.