Tow Vehicle Confused - Need Assistance Please

[rhoelscher]

All,
Need assistance please.

My wife and I are newbies. We have only towed pop up, Army, and Boy Scout trailers. In the next few months we plan to buy a 27FB FC. We need a TV which will also be my daily driver.

I have been reading all the threads about tow vehicles and recognize there are a lot of different experiences and opinions. I appreciate everyone's views. However, much of what I read lacked specific detail or was confusing. For this post, I am asking for objective and precise opinions please.

Here is my scenario.

The 27FB has a GVWR 7600.

The vehicle I am about to purchase is an F-150 Lariat, 156" WB, 4x4, 3.5L EcoB, 3.55, Max Tow with the following specs:

GCWR: 17000
GVWR: 7000
GVW/Base Curb Weight (includes full tank of gas): 4784
Payload: 1668

Using the RV Tow Check Calculator (http://fifthwheelst.com/rvtc_calculator.html) and assuming 410 lbs of passengers, 500 lbs of cargo, and a 15% tongue weight. This calculator says this truck can safely tow up to a 8706 lbs trailer.

Given it is a gas engine, it will lose about 2% performance per 1000 feet of elevation, is this a significant issue during those infrequent trips in the Rockies?

Anyone see any issue with this? Am I missing any calculation or consideration? Safety is my biggest concern. (I would also like to avoid buying an F250 if possible.)

Thanks for your patience with yet another TV question!
Bob

[rostam]

One thing you should be careful about is the payload number. The published payload numbers are for barebone vehicles with no options and accessories and are almost always several hundred pounds more than the actual payload -- which you can find on the driver side door tire sticker. Make sure you base your purchase decision based on door jam number and NOT the published number or else you would have much less payload.

With a turbo engine you would not lose as much power when in elevations -- that formula, I believe, is for naturally aspirated engines.

Best of luck to you!

[Rich Jenkins]

We are also newbies to towing, having bought our 27' FC FB last November.

I did the tow vehicle math and up buying a Ram 2500 4x4 Crew Cab with the Cummins Diesel, and a Propride hitch for the FC.

We are on the road out west during the summers and frequently in the mountains. I can say towing with the Ram has been a non-event. I have no problem maintaining 65 mph up interstate 5% grades. Going down, the automatic smart diesel brake engages. I've not actually used the foot brake, at all, during any descent so far.

Being a risk-averse retired Aerospace engineer, I wanted to have sufficient reserve capacity both to reduce my own pucker factor, as well as the ability to trade our 27' FC to that 30' Classic my wife has been eyeing.

Just my experience, there are a lot of folks much more knowledgeable than I am and can advise whether a 1500 is enough truck for a 27' AS.

Rich

[Tomboy]

We have a 25' FC and realized on our shake down trip that our 4x4 van was not such a great tow vehicle for that trailer. I REALLY wanted a new F150 with the 3.5L eco boost. But after doing the math on the 4x4 Lariat, we realized that it would be only a tad bit better than the van. By the time we loaded the trailer and ourselves and the toys (kayaks, maybe a dirt bike), we were right back against the limits of the vehicle. Especially on the mountain grades.

So last week we went with the F250 diesel. And I'm not using it as my daily driver like I would if the F150 had been an option.

[FCStreamer]

The F150 will tow that trailer fine. Where you get into problems is on the payload number. Once you load the trailer and yoursel into the truck, you won't have enough capacity to carry a motorcycle, for example. If all you are carrying is your clothes and some food and a generator, you'll be fine. But if you want to do like the previous posters and carry a lot more stuff or tow something heavier in the future, you don't have a lot of spare room to grow. That may or may not work for you.

[PaulnGina]

To cut through all of the clutter, tow vehicle calculators, and spreadsheets.......

Get an F250, then go enjoy travelling anywhere you'd like to go without having to worry about your tow vehicle.

You won't regret it.

Just my 2 cents worth.


PaulnGina
1987 Avion 34W
1995 Ford F250 7.3L PowerStroke

"I don't mean to sound degrading but with a face like that you got nothing to laugh about" Rod Stewart (Faces)

[Troy Tyson]

Originally Posted by rhoelscher

All,
Need assistance please.

My wife and I are newbies. We have only towed pop up, Army, and Boy Scout trailers. In the next few months we plan to buy a 27FB FC. We need a TV which will also be my daily driver.

I have been reading all the threads about tow vehicles and recognize there are a lot of different experiences and opinions. I appreciate everyone's views. However, much of what I read lacked specific detail or was confusing. For this post, I am asking for objective and precise opinions please.

Here is my scenario.

The 27FB has a GVWR 7600.

The vehicle I am about to purchase is an F-150 Lariat, 156" WB, 4x4, 3.5L EcoB, 3.55, Max Tow with the following specs:

GCWR: 17000
GVWR: 7000
GVW/Base Curb Weight (includes full tank of gas): 4784
Payload: 1668

Using the RV Tow Check Calculator (http://fifthwheelst.com/rvtc_calculator.html) and assuming 410 lbs of passengers, 500 lbs of cargo, and a 15% tongue weight. This calculator says this truck can safely tow up to a 8706 lbs trailer.

Given it is a gas engine, it will lose about 2% performance per 1000 feet of elevation, is this a significant issue during those infrequent trips in the Rockies?

Anyone see any issue with this? Am I missing any calculation or consideration? Safety is my biggest concern. (I would also like to avoid buying an F250 if possible.)

Thanks for your patience with yet another TV question!
Bob

I have a 27 ft, AS I pull with a 3.5 Ecoboost with max tow pkg. I get from 11 to 13.8 mpg. Altitude does not affect performance in the higher altitudes because the twin turbos solve that problem. you will love the truck

[switz]

We brought our 2013 25FB International home from the dealership with our 2007 Mercedes ML320 CDI diesel. At 55 mph all the way, no issues empty. Once loaded for camping, the axles were overloaded and we migrated to our 2012 Ram 2500HD Cummins and that cured the towing issues. Trading up to the 2014 31' Classic was a non-towing vehicle change event and seems to be the perfect match. The Classic scales 9,200 pounds when we depart on a trip and the entire rig scales just over 19,000 pounds.

We have the power to maintain speed both going up mountain and engine braking to maintain speed going down mountain. It works wonderfully for us.

[AnnArborBob]

Since you are not a "full timer" (whatever you want that to mean) you will be fine towing your 27 with a 3.5L Ecoboost F-150. Watch the load on the hitch and you will be OK. If you were full timing in mountain country (or more than one of two months at a time traveling) I'd encourage you to consider a F-250 diesel, but until that is the case, enjoy your F-150!

[GoWhereTowed]

Eco Boost will perform at altitude with no problem. Your situation is like mine, but mine is worse. I have 2013 Platinum, loaded, but only 1100 payload. The new body is aluminum so you gain several hundred pounds. Your problem is not going to be the weight of the trailer, but the payload of the truck. If you load that trailer, you are looking at over 1000 pounds of hitch weight, your 500 pounds of cargo and 410 in passengers, you are over the payload rating of the 150. In fact, you are approaching the limits of the 250-I looked at one last week and the door sticker showed just over 1900 lbs. A lot of people overload their TV payload and get away with it, but I do not want to worry about having to weigh everything I put in the truck. I would load the trailer to the max and lower the load on the truck. No problem with the truck pulling that load.

[GoWhereTowed]

Also, if you can manage the payload weight, that truck will pull anything in the Airstream line of trailers with no problem.

[rhoelscher]

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful replies! We will keep watching this list and thinking about it. Once my wife and I decide, I will let everyone know what we decided to do. Thanks again!
Bob

[Rpatrick16]

I'm just curious as I don't "have a dog in this fight". I don't have that big of an AS and don't intend on getting a bigger one. But my question is ....what is your aversion to going to the F250? The truck physical dimensions I believe are pretty much the same of course the capacity of the two vehicles are in fact different. But is it mileage that concerns you?

My son just traded a 2013 Ford F150 Raptor with the big engine...gas. Out here in western Montana he averaged close to 12 to 14 mpg. His new vehicle is a Dodge Ram 2500 Diesel with the Cummins motor. His mileage has actually "improved" and the truck is a "brute" when it comes to towing capacity and it surprisingly quite. That really surprised me...doesn't sound like the typical diesel powered PU.

I'm not trying to "sell you a truck" but reading what you posted and what the others have posted make your decision an interesting one. The "trend" that I've noted on this "forum" over TV is most 150 owners sooner or later become F250 or Ram 2500 owners.

There are some great YouTube video channels on the subject of AS ownership and what "works and what doesn't"....you may already be aware of them but one that comes to mind is "Long Long Honeymoon".

Good luck with your final choice!

[Rich Jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rpatrick16

My son just traded a 2013 Ford F150 Raptor with the big engine...gas. Out here in western Montana he averaged close to 12 to 14 mpg. His new vehicle is a Dodge Ram 2500 Diesel with the Cummins motor. His mileage has actually "improved" and the truck is a "brute" when it comes to towing capacity and it surprisingly quite. That really surprised me...doesn't sound like the typical diesel powered PU.

My Ram 2500 is my daily driver when we are not on the road. It works pretty well. For a pickup of that size, it rides very well, and the engine (for a diesel) is pretty quiet.

I opted for the Ram Boxes, which is a phenomenal use of space. I chuck all kinds of things in these lockable compartments.

In fact, it was the Cummins, the rear coil-spring suspension and the Ram boxes that sold me on the truck. Nothing wrong with Ford or GMC/Chevy, of course, but the Ram really suited me.

[PaulnGina]

Prior to getting a company-provided car, I drove my F250 as my daily driver. Most days I was pretty mobile.... Not just driven to work and parked for the day. I guess I never saw it as a hindrance of any kind..... I love driving the truck, and operate accordingly. Parked in the easiest place available, considering the long wheelbase. It was definitely better for visibility than any car I can think of. Sitting up higher, you can keep an eye on traffic much better. As far as the ride? Guess what? It rides like a truck! However, I can drive that truck all day without getting fatigued like I do in a car. Had a lot to do with the seating posture..... More like a chair than a freakin' sled with your butt 12" from the road and your legs out in front of you.

If I had to choose, I'll take a truck any day of the week.

I guess it's just what you set your mind to, and what your preferences are.




PaulnGina
1987 Avion 34W
1995 Ford F250 7.3L PowerStroke

"I don't mean to sound degrading but with a face like that you got nothing to laugh about" Rod Stewart (Faces)

[dkottum]

First understand "payload" is the load you are carrying on the truck.

The published info for a truck provides a "payload" number, but depends on optional equipment. The door sticker provides a weight "that you should not exceed", and that is also referred to as "payload". Then the dealer gets the truck and may some optional equipment; again the "payload" number has changed and you don't know what it is.

Take the truck, fill the fuel tank, put you and whoever else will travel with you in the truck and weigh it at a truck scale. The difference between that weight and the GVWR number on the door sticker is the load you can carry without exceeding GVWR. That's your actual "payload" for the unhitched truck, as recommended by the manufacturer.

Then realize you can still overload an axle without exceeding GVWR. Just drop your Airstream on the hitch receiver and load a bunch of stuff in the bed behind the truck's axle, you can be within recommended "payload" (under GVWR) but your rear axle load may exceed GAWR.

That's one of the reasons we use a weight distribution hitch, which distributes some of the Airstream hitch weight and load behind the truck's rear axle among the truck's axles, and 10 - 20% to the Airstream's axle(s).

One of the important things to note is that the weight distribution hitch has moved some of the "payload" to the Airstream.

So you're still too heavy. Don't give up so easy. You can move some of the truck's bed load forward, easing the job of the w.d. hitch. You can move some of the truck's load into the Airstream, easing the job of the w.d. hitch. And you can move some stuff rearward in the Airstream for travel, and you can even move the Airstream battery location rearward. We push our recliner chairs back to lighten the hitch load.

These things effectively reduce the "payload" you actually carry.

There is still another consideration. Heavy hitch loads along with heavy load in the back of the truck make the job of the w.d. hitch difficult. Long wheelbase tow vehicles make the job of the w.d. hitch difficult. So difficult that when attempting to lift this heavy load with the w.d. hitch, more so with long wheelbase, the resistance can cause the truck's receiver and frame to flex, and that flexing uses some of the force the w.d. hitch applies. The result is sometimes you may not be able to distribute as much weight as you would expect.

The short answer is always to compare the truck's "payload" with some list of weights you may carry. That's only a starting point, and may not be a guarantee of success. There's more to it than that, and you can control much of it. Or you can enlist the help of a towing expert to set up your truck, hitch, and Airstream for optimum performance.

Back to the F150 Ecoboost. A near perfect match to a mid-size Airstream when you have it set up properly for towing and manage your loads. F250 and you will still need to have it set up properly for towing and manage your loads for optimum performance.

For their own reasons Airstreamers use and like what they have, F150 and F250; they each work well for each individual's use.

[DPRoberts]

Originally Posted by rhoelscher

All,
The 27FB has a GVWR 7600.

The vehicle I am about to purchase is an F-150 Lariat, 156" WB, 4x4, 3.5L EcoB, 3.55, Max Tow with the following specs:

GCWR: 17000
GVWR: 7000
GVW/Base Curb Weight (includes full tank of gas): 4784
Payload: 1668

Using the RV Tow Check Calculator (http://fifthwheelst.com/rvtc_calculator.html) and assuming 410 lbs of passengers, 500 lbs of cargo, and a 15% tongue weight. This calculator says this truck can safely tow up to a 8706 lbs trailer.

Noob question, but I don't understand how the math works out on that calculator.

Assuming, as the OP stated,
410 lbs of passengers
+ 500 lbs of cargo
+ 1306 lbs tongue weight (15% of their allowed 8706 lb. trailer)
= 2216 lbs, or 548 lbs over the vehicle's payload 1668 lbs.

What gives?

If I'm looking at it right, the site assumes that the truck's payload is GVWR-GVW (curb weight), which would be 2216 lbs, which matches what I just calculated. However, the OP stated that his payload (I assume from the door sticker) is 1668 lbs.

Would it be correct to assume that the curb weight is a generic published number, & far lower than what the OP's truck actually weighs, thus leading to a much lower payload rating? Losing 550 lbs of payload somewhere seems like a lot.

[switz]

In 2013 I needed to get a different tow vehicle as we found the axle ratings were exceeded on my 2007 Mercedes ML:320 CDI when the 2013 25FB International Serenity was fully loaded for camping.

I went to the Ford F150 web site and used their "build a truck" software.

The difference in payload between the base no fills truck and the King Ranch model was a 500 pound load penalty for all the glitz like leather seats, chrome everything whatever.

That is 500 pounds of non-movable weight in the King Ranch model and one had a payload of close to 1,000 pounds. The tongue weight of the 25FB was 1,175 pounds. So that particular truck would be overloaded if the trailer were attached and passenger was aboard let alone the driver.

That is why there are so many payload conversations here. We are not able to squeeze five pounds into a three pound bag, so to speak.

The variables of the door post numbers (Gross Vehicle Weight, Front Axle Rating, Rear Axle Rating, and maximum trailer weight and perhaps even the net payload will be displayed) all set the limits for that specific vehicle.

As mentioned, a trip across some CAT scales with a full fuel tank along with the driver and usual planned passenger will give the actual front and rear axle loads and the total weight of the truck. At this point of the demo drive, the driver is out the cost of the scale ticket (around $12) and filling the fuel tank.

The differences between the actual scale weights for the axles and total weight versus the door label numbers serve as the basic for all the rest of the calculations.

If a set of side steps are added along with a camper shell, their weights have reduced the payload since the truck empty weight increased. All the added accessories going forward reduce the vehicles load capacity and could even overload an axle capacity.

Then the tire variables must be considered between the "Passenger car tires" often installed on the ½ ton trucks virus the "LT or light Truck" tires found on the heavier load capacity trucks. The two extremes are the marshmallow ride of the big 50s cars and the super stiff ride of a high load capacity heavy duty one ton or higher rated truck of perhaps ten years ago.

Note that I had the factory basic weights in their detailed build sheet specifications. The actual numbers after all the factory installed options reflected several hundreds of pounds more empty weight. After driving off the lot, I went to a truck stop, filled the tank and weighed the truck. Now I had the actual starting weight numbers that were much different than a bare truck.

As I added each of the after sale accessories, I crossed the scales to see the impact of each purchase on the payload and axle loads.

YMMV

[rhoelscher]

Good Morning, switz. Thanks for laying it out that way. Your conclusion is logical and based on the math. Hard to refute.

It seems to me that even if the tongue weight was 1200 lbs and the passengers 410 lbs, we could put darn few things in the bed of the truck or the cab. Of course, then why have a Super Crew cab, right? I think we will go look at the F250s; especially since the 2017 models will be as modern as the F150s are today! Thank you!

[rhoelscher]

DPRoberts, Spot on. I totally agree with your math and conclusion! Thank you for laying it out that way!