Tow Vehicle and Off-Roader Combination

[Peter417]

Originally Posted by pteck

There's more to unpack here if you're interested in details.

I am indeed interested in the details. I appreciate to compliment on the first gen. The 275/70/17s work well on the truck with the stock gears while pulling the small AS.

I am specifically interested in what your thoughts are on the best tire size for the LX570 the will see a lot of towing.

I'll skip the story but many years ago on a jeep trip a tire failure made for a bad 3 days. I am looking for a tough beefy tire that wont leave me longing for more gears.

This is not mine but I like the look

[pteck]

Originally Posted by Peter417

I am indeed interested in the details. I appreciate to compliment on the first gen. The 275/70/17s work well on the truck with the stock gears while pulling the small AS.

I am specifically interested in what your thoughts are on the best tire size for the LX570 the will see a lot of towing.

I'll skip the story but many years ago on a jeep trip a tire failure made for a bad 3 days. I am looking for a tough beefy tire that wont leave me longing for more gears.

This is not mine but I like the look

I've had a number of tire sizes on my LX now. Best is a balance best decided by the individual. Generally, increasing tire size and diameter compromises towing as it effects stability, gearing, engine braking, braking, efficiency, etc.

For a mild upgrade while keeping great towing manners and efficiency, I would recommend stepping up incrementally in diameter. Stock tires are 285/50r20 (31.3" diameter). For an 18" wheel, a 285/65r18 (32.6") diameter in your favorite AT tire may be the ticket.

I actually found a slight increase in tire diameter can help efficiency a tad as the slightly longer gearing made 4th gear spin with less windage while still maintaining good power.

[Peter417]

Originally Posted by pteck

I've had a number of tire sizes on my LX now. Best is a balance best decided by the individual. Generally, increasing tire size and diameter compromises towing as it effects stability, gearing, engine braking, braking, efficiency, etc.

For a mild upgrade while keeping great towing manners and efficiency, I would recommend stepping up incrementally in diameter. Stock tires are 285/50r20 (31.3" diameter). For an 18" wheel, a 285/65r18 (32.6") diameter in your favorite AT tire may be the ticket.

I actually found a slight increase in tire diameter can help efficiency a tad as the slightly longer gearing made 4th gear spin with less windage while still maintaining good power.

At what point with your setup did you start wanting gears? Are you familiar with anyone running a 33x12.5 on these trucks? It looks like your fat 35s tuck very nicely.

[pteck]

Originally Posted by Peter417

At what point with your setup did you start wanting gears? Are you familiar with anyone running a 33x12.5 on these trucks? It looks like your fat 35s tuck very nicely.

I actually ran 305/55R20s for many years and probably had 10k miles towing with that setup. On the sidewall, they were also stamped 33x12.5s. Great setup and I thought it walked a pretty awesome balance. Still required some clearancing mods.

Gears - the 5.7L is a brute and unlike smaller gas motors, makes amble torque off the line. I never re-geared with 33s towing the same 8k trailer and it worked very well. Some more aggressive brake compound pads to bring back the braking torque and it all worked great.

[kb0zke]

Interesting thread. We're seriously thinking about switching from our Foretravel to an Airstream in the next couple of months, and that means that our towed will also have to change to a towing vehicle. We're looking at 30-34' Airstreams, so somewhere around 9-10,000 pounds of trailer. That means something like an F-250 for a tow vehicle. The tow vehicle will have to be a crew cab and will have a cap on the bed, which will be full of stuff.


Question: Could a stock 4WD F250 go on, say, the 4WD roads at Big Bend National Park? No, the trailer won't go along, just the truck. At our age we're not into big off-road adventures, but the ability to handle something a bit rougher than an Interstate highway would be nice.

[pteck]

Originally Posted by kb0zke

Interesting thread. We're seriously thinking about switching from our Foretravel to an Airstream in the next couple of months, and that means that our towed will also have to change to a towing vehicle. We're looking at 30-34' Airstreams, so somewhere around 9-10,000 pounds of trailer. That means something like an F-250 for a tow vehicle. The tow vehicle will have to be a crew cab and will have a cap on the bed, which will be full of stuff.


Question: Could a stock 4WD F250 go on, say, the 4WD roads at Big Bend National Park? No, the trailer won't go along, just the truck. At our age we're not into big off-road adventures, but the ability to handle something a bit rougher than an Interstate highway would be nice.

Yes. I'd say the factory F250 Tremor would fit the bill nicely, coming with factory suspension tuned more for off-road articulation, large 35" tires, transfer case and rear locker, factory winch option, etc. Would seem to be tailor made for this job. I'd personally spec the gasser as a better trade for off-road nimbleness and weight to not get bogged in soft stuff.

[ZeGermans]

Originally Posted by kb0zke

Interesting thread. We're seriously thinking about switching from our Foretravel to an Airstream in the next couple of months, and that means that our towed will also have to change to a towing vehicle. We're looking at 30-34' Airstreams, so somewhere around 9-10,000 pounds of trailer. That means something like an F-250 for a tow vehicle. The tow vehicle will have to be a crew cab and will have a cap on the bed, which will be full of stuff.


Question: Could a stock 4WD F250 go on, say, the 4WD roads at Big Bend National Park? No, the trailer won't go along, just the truck. At our age we're not into big off-road adventures, but the ability to handle something a bit rougher than an Interstate highway would be nice.

We have a F350 tremor gas and a globetrotter 27fbt. It’s a nice setup, I’ve actually thought about getting a roof tent for the truck so we could go on 1-2 nights off-road adventures while on the road.
However the tremor though lifted, the suspension is still setup for towing and hauling. If I’d consider doing more off-road I’d actually go the other way, buy a 4x4 super duty and modify the suspension.
Also if you are considering a super duty and you are not in a state where you pay hefty tax on insurance tag ins for full ton, get a f350 the tremors are exact same, same price but you get the full payload sticker…

We are actually considering going the other way and upgrade from the globetrotter to a foretravel fs450 and tow our 2 door Jeep we got…

[GettinAway]

I’ve taken a motorcycle on all the trails in BB NP. I’m pretty sure an F250 could do any of them. Definitely need to air down the tires, as the roads are really washboarded.
BB State Park has some trails that you’d want to be in a Jeep or side by side. I think they are just too steep and loose for a heavier truck.

[pteck]

Originally Posted by ZeGermans

We have a F350 tremor gas and a globetrotter 27fbt. It’s a nice setup, I’ve actually thought about getting a roof tent for the truck so we could go on 1-2 nights off-road adventures while on the road.
However the tremor though lifted, the suspension is still setup for towing and hauling. If I’d consider doing more off-road I’d actually go the other way, buy a 4x4 super duty and modify the suspension.
Also if you are considering a super duty and you are not in a state where you pay hefty tax on insurance tag ins for full ton, get a f350 the tremors are exact same, same price but you get the full payload sticker…

We are actually considering going the other way and upgrade from the globetrotter to a foretravel fs450 and tow our 2 door Jeep we got…

Not a bad idea to build an HD truck with custom suspension for off-road. Lots of done that. I believe Carli Suspension is one of the major players offering tuned kids for various platforms.

If looking for a factory option, I'd avoid options that increase spring rate as that's critical to off-road performance. It's very singular on these boards to chase more payload, but it's always at the cost to ride quality and off-road articulation. It's a balancing act, but it's why many of the factory off-road trims have less payload and towing capacity.

Airbags get a bad rap but can be a key component to making a better dual purpose vehicle. Deflated to allow tender springs to work their best off-road. Inflated to augment spring rate for more load handling and stability.

[mikextr]

Originally Posted by ZeGermans

We are actually considering going the other way and upgrade from the globetrotter to a foretravel fs450 and tow our 2 door Jeep we got…

I think you have the right idea. Even with light off roading, the chance of a tow vehicle breakdown goes way up. Then things get real complicated.

[kb0zke]

I should have specified above that we're NOT looking at buying a brand-new truck. We'll be looking for something around 2012-2015 or so.

[JetstreamAS]

Everyone has a different understanding of what “off road” means by way of conditions and vehicles. The F250/350 Tremor is more “off road” than other F250/350 packages but is by no means an “off road” setup other than for some silty and dirt roads with some ruts. Anything beyond that and you are pushing it even though I like how the Tremor is set up.

As has been said many times you really are better off having your SUV/truck modified accordingly for your intended use. Keep in mind that a good highway SUV/truck is almost never a good off road SUV/truck at the same time (and vice versa) so plan in advance and be realistic about your needs.

[pteck]

Here's an interesting metric of off-road capability. It doesn't speak to everything but it's an important dimension. The RTI Ramp score speaks to a vehicle suspensions ability to articulate and follow the contours of the ground or obstacles. This ability keeps tires down without lifting tires for maximum traction, stability, and the ability to put torque down evenly without additional traction aids. Wheelbase length is a parameter in the metric.

RTI Score Chart:

'18 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon JLUR (bar off): 724
Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon JLUR (bar off): 718
'22 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon 4xe (bar off): 701
Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon JKUR (last gen, bar off): 687
'22 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon 392 (bar off): 684
'20 Toyota Land Cruiser Heritage Edition: 661
'21 Bronco 2-Door First Edition 35" Sasquatch (bar off): 648
'17 Toyota Land Cruiser: 647
'17 Lexus LX570 (AHC normal, 20" wheels): 645
'21 Ford Bronco First Ed (bar off): 618
'21 Ford Raptor: 618
Jeep Gladiator Rubicon (bar off): 607
'17 Ford Rapter Supercab: 603
'21 Ram 1500 TRX: 602
'93 Toyota Land Cruiser 80-series: 593
'16 Dodge Power Wagon: 589
'20 Lexus LX570 Sport w/chin spoiler (AHC high, 21" wheels): 588
'95 Land Rover Discovery: 588
'10 Toyota 4runner w/KDSS: 584
'94 Land Rover Defender 90: 580
'17 Land Rover LR4: 560
'22 Tacoma TRD Pro: 559
'22 Ford F-150 Tremor: 557
'21 Toyota 4Runner TRD Off-Road (w/KDSS): 555
'14 Ford Raptor: 551
'20 Power Wagon (w/ disconnecting sway): 538
'21 Ford Raptor w/37" tire package: 537
Mercedes G63 AMG (last gen): 534
Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon JLUR (bar on): 523
'21 Bronco 2-Door First Edition 35" Sasquatch (bar on): 522
'04 GX470 w/KDSS: 519
Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon JKUR (last gen, bar off): 518
'17 Land Rover Discovery: 516
'07 Toyota FJ Cruiser: 515
'22 Rivian R1T (Normal): 510
'18 Dodge Power Wagon: 510
Chevy Colorado ZR2 Bison: 501
'21 Ford Bronco First Ed (bar on): 498
Toyota Tacoma TRD Pro: 492
'21 Chevy Colorado ZR2: 489
'22 Rivian R1T (Rock Crawl Mode aka high): 488
'14 Toyota Tundra TRD Pro: 484
Jeep Gladiator Mojave: 476
Toyota Tacoma TRD Off-Road: 468
Jeep Gladiator Rubicon (bar on): 458
'17 Land Rover LR4 (high mode): 457
'22 Ford Ranger Tremor: 441
'20 F-250 Superduty Tremor: 436
'22 Tundra TRD Pro: 436
'22 Nissan Frontier Pro 4X: 435
'04 GX470 (no KDSS): 428
'15 Ford F150: 420
'14 Ram Power Wagon: 412
Chevy Colorado Z71 (air dam removed): 410
'19 Ram Rebel: 406
'17 Land Rover Discovery (high mode): 377
'11 Mercedes-Benz G-Class 300 CDI Professional: 376
'17 Nissan Armada: 362
'20 Sequoia TRD Pro: 351
'20 Rav4 TRD Off-Road: 308

[bobzdar]

I fit squarely into the topic of the thread. Being able to off road my tow vehicle is a huge bonus as we take family camping trips and I don't want to take two vehicles to do some of the trails available. I also don't want multiple vehicles to tackle similar tasks if possible. I was towing with a Gladiator Rubicon I bought in 2019, first towing my '67 overlander and then my 25 fcrbq. It was great at both, no problems and a comfortable road trip vehicle. However, we got a 2nd (albeit small) dog and my mom is moving next door, along with having two preteen kids. So we all took a trip in the fall and it was too tight, plus it required careful loading to not exceed payload. That realistically means 3 row SUV for us, and if it can off road with capability closer to the Jeep, even better as that means I don't need both.

That left two options given how I off road, grand Cherokee L or Defender 130. If the grand Cherokee L had a trail hawk variant, I'd most likely have gone for that. But it doesn't, unfortunately. So that left the D130. I found one locally with everything I wanted (off road and tow pack, adaptive cruise and climate seats), and somehow talked them off of their 12,500 markup and drove it home. We'll see how it does towing and off road as I plan to take it to some of the same trails I've done in the Rubicon - some of which require lockers and winch depending on conditions.

From reviews of the 110 (which has the same wheelbase, suspension etc, just less rear overhang), it can hang with the Gladiator Rubicon for the most part, has less articulation but will high center less easily. It requires more care to not drag the rear control arms. I don't do a ton of rock crawling in the east, but definitely some as two of the places I off road were quarries in the past. No boulders but lots of medium sized and smaller rocks. The d130 has 1" smaller tires but actually fractionally more ground clearance with the air suspension and a shorter wheelbase.

Numbers wise the Rubicon has 7000lbs towing and 1200lbs payload with 285hp, the d130 8200lbs towing and 1900lbs payload with 395hp. You can get the gladiator max tow with 7600lbs towing and 1600lbs payload, but it loses a lot of the off road bits. The d130 should be better off road than that with still more towing and payload. There are 2 major downsides to the d130, though. First and foremost, price. It comes in at an easy $20k over the Jeep similarly optioned, and with the extra fancy stuff (this thing has a rear view mirror that turns into a screen if you put too much cargo in and can't see out the back!), it's more like $30k more.

I had originally planned to trade the Jeep in, but hedging a bit until the D130 gets a full workout off road. I plan to take it in February to fully test it out, so will probably hang onto the Jeep until then. I may see if my buddy wants to drive the Jeep so we can do a direct comparison.

[sbowman]

IMHO, currently there is no vehicle that is an orange to an orange comparison to the new LR Defender off the shelf and out the door. This is not to say if you want an honest off roader you will need to change and add to. I bought 90% of LR's accessories for off roading.

Currently Lucky 8 on the East Coast most likely has the most experience w/modifying the new Defenders.

My wife and I have a 2021 110 P400. I have spent the last year changing and modifying at a tune of 25K, was it worth it you bet. If you have 22" wheels you will need to change to 20", the smallest wheel you can put on a P400. eBay has venders selling New OME LR wheels w/tires, however no sensors. I got 5 for $1800 to my doorsteps. These wheels sell for $1100.00 from LR. 5 sensors from LR were $124.00 each. Next silver wheels to my powder coater, Ford charcoal grey. 33" tires are as big as you can go w/o "cutting" out wheel wells. Next 5 each 275/60R-20 116S Razr AT. I installed 1.5" lift. RINO makes 1", 1.5", and 2". I would not recommend the 2". RINO rock sliders and roof ladder currently at powder coater, again Ford charcoal grey.

Go to utube and take a look at what people are doing w/this new Defender. It is amazing to say the least.

Congratulations on your new D130, you have entered a completely new dimension. LR's are not cheap however you own the king of the hill. Are they worth it, you bet. We have been Rover people for 30 years. Currently we own between 1972 and 2021, Series 3's, old school Defenders, Range Rover Classic, Disco 2, and our 2021 D110 P400.

Be well and enjoy!

[bobzdar]

Originally Posted by sbowman

IMHO, currently there is no vehicle that is an orange to an orange comparison to the new LR Defender off the shelf and out the door. This is not to say if you want an honest off roader you will need to change and add to. I bought 90% of LR's accessories for off roading.

Currently Lucky 8 on the East Coast most likely has the most experience w/modifying the new Defenders.

My wife and I have a 2021 110 P400. I have spent the last year changing and modifying at a tune of 25K, was it worth it you bet. If you have 22" wheels you will need to change to 20", the smallest wheel you can put on a P400. eBay has venders selling New OME LR wheels w/tires, however no sensors. I got 5 for $1800 to my doorsteps. These wheels sell for $1100.00 from LR. 5 sensors from LR were $124.00 each. Next silver wheels to my powder coater, Ford charcoal grey. 33" tires are as big as you can go w/o "cutting" out wheel wells. Next 5 each 275/60R-20 116S Razr AT. I installed 1.5" lift. RINO makes 1", 1.5", and 2". I would not recommend the 2". RINO rock sliders and roof ladder currently at powder coater, again Ford charcoal grey.

Go to utube and take a look at what people are doing w/this new Defender. It is amazing to say the least.

Congratulations on your new D130, you have entered a completely new dimension. LR's are not cheap however you own the king of the hill. Are they worth it, you bet. We have been Rover people for 30 years. Currently we own between 1972 and 2021, Series 3's, old school Defenders, Range Rover Classic, Disco 2, and our 2021 D110 P400.

Be well and enjoy!

Thanks! I also have a series 3 109, so not new to LR's, but new to 'new' land rovers.

I have the 20" wheels with off-road pack (ie rear locker), so basically it's going to be better tires and a winch and then figure out where it has issues and go from there. I was looking at the lucky 8 hidden winch mount but may wait and see if I need a front bumper. I do use the steel bumpers and rock sliders on my Jeep, but usually intentionally so can avoid that with the LR. There's not much other LR off-road parts to add other than the explorer pack stuff, and I don't think I'll need the big expedition roof rack or ladder. Just some bars so I can use my Thule bubble. The aftermarket is pretty impressive for an only 2 year old model! These guys are about 20 minutes away from me if I think I need to go nuts: https://www.sarekautowerke.com/newde...stomoutfitting
But usually I'm good with minor stuff to maximize the stock capability and try to improve my driving.

[tjdonahoe]

Originally Posted by kb0zke

Interesting thread. We're seriously thinking about switching from our Foretravel to an Airstream in the next couple of months, and that means that our towed will also have to change to a towing vehicle. We're looking at 30-34' Airstreams, so somewhere around 9-10,000 pounds of trailer. That means something like an F-250 for a tow vehicle. The tow vehicle will have to be a crew cab and will have a cap on the bed, which will be full of stuff.


Question: Could a stock 4WD F250 go on, say, the 4WD roads at Big Bend National Park? No, the trailer won't go along, just the truck. At our age we're not into big off-road adventures, but the ability to handle something a bit rougher than an Interstate highway would be nice.

We take our 3/4 ton ram on many off road adventures……

[sbowman]

I know Sarek's. They make the only steel bumper for the new defenders. I have chosen to stay w/LR winch set up. The sliders, roof ladder, and lift links are the only non LR OME. However, they are used on the "Trek Editions".

I have stayed w/the sleeper route. Better investment in the long run.

[drxtoph]

Yesterday I traded in my '22 Sasquatch Badlands Bronco for a '22 F-150 XLT with Fx4 and a 5L V8. It has skid plates and I plan to replace the Pirelli's, maybe upgrade to 35"'s and bigger brakes.

Why, you might ask? GCVW - I wanted to roof tent, my wife wanted to Airstream, and we compromised in the REI Basecamp 20X. Unfortunately it weights 3,500 dry and the Badlands has skid plates and a compromised tow capacity, and I'm not one to risk the guilt, let alone the lawsuit, of harming anyone by going over the rated weights.

I love off-roading, having begun in 1996/7 with my '97 Land Rover Discovery XD.

I want to get a Cruise Master DO35 articulating hitch hooked to our Basecamp to give us a better chance to turn and go off camber on the trails Any advice or experience would be appreciated! If not that one, any other hitches you can advise? How the heck do you switch the hitch type on the RV end?

[pteck]

Originally Posted by drxtoph

Yesterday I traded in my '22 Sasquatch Badlands Bronco for a '22 F-150 XLT with Fx4 and a 5L V8. It has skid plates and I plan to replace the Pirelli's, maybe upgrade to 35"'s and bigger brakes.

Why, you might ask? GCVW - I wanted to roof tent, my wife wanted to Airstream, and we compromised in the REI Basecamp 20X. Unfortunately it weights 3,500 dry and the Badlands has skid plates and a compromised tow capacity, and I'm not one to risk the guilt, let alone the lawsuit, of harming anyone by going over the rated weights.

I love off-roading, having begun in 1996/7 with my '97 Land Rover Discovery XD.

I want to get a Cruise Master DO35 articulating hitch hooked to our Basecamp to give us a better chance to turn and go off camber on the trails Any advice or experience would be appreciated! If not that one, any other hitches you can advise? How the heck do you switch the hitch type on the RV end?

Congrats on the change. Love the basecamp!

I run with a group that has a fair share of F150s (Raptors, FX4s on 35s and 37s) from mild to wild off-roading. Truthfully, I don't see where you'll get into a situation where you'll honestly need a 360 degree rotation hitch. The F150, and definitely the Basecamp 20X, will be a limitation well before the hitch. That's unless you tend to throw caution to the wind and don't mind damaging the shiny aluminum. You'd be surprised but a standard hitch has a larger range of motion than most give it credit for.