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yosemitesam · 02-26-2005, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmtyme

Well I have been reading all the threads and am confused..We also are looking for a new tow vehicle..but, we need a SUV for hauling people & stuff...pulling a 29' 6800lb. (weighed it yesterday) trailer...we were going to get the Expedition with the 5.4 (we are a Ford family)(supposed to pick it up TODAY) to replace the Explorer that we have been using only for short trips recently since we got the trailer..but Consuer Reports does not recommend it nor does Motor Trend and now Car and Driver...which recommends the Nissan Pathfinder Armada. It is rated higher than the Expedition for towing..power etc... sister to the Titan. According to Car and Driver the Armada is the TOW VEHICLE to get.. now I might add that I have to drive this vehicle everyday around town so the Excursion and the like are just tooo big for me...drove a diesel and it was way too noisy for me...I am going this morning to see the Armada...will it be enough engine?? Rated at 9100lbs. Check out Car and Driver...So all of you out there, any suggestions...

A year later...is 150lbs a worthy difference? And also 4 inches of wheelbase? I have a cousin with an Armada...thing is falling apart at the seems with 24,000 miles on the clock...been through 4 sets of rotors, 2 front seats, and the dealer can't seem to figure out why roof liner with the DVD player is shaking so badly you can't see the screen...

Great tow vehicle though...they are towing a triple axle boat trailer with a 26' Advantage Boat...pretty heavy I guess...boat and trailer are around 6,500 lbs. Tows real easy.

-Sam

yosemitesam · 02-26-2005, 11:43 PM

Here is what I see for me....

I have a 2004 Expedition 5.4L 3.73 gears, HD Tow...according to Ford, I'm allowed 14,500lbs of total combined weights.

I'm looking at the 25' Safari with the Front Bedroom layout. Rated by Airstream at 7300lbs fully loaded...hitch around 850lbs I'm guessing with the LPG bottles full, et al.

If I start subtracting...5500 for the TV and 7300 for the trailer, I have 1700lbs of weight to play with. Now, I'm not quite sure how it all works with tongue weights, so I'll double ding myself, and subtract the tongue weight as well...now I'm at 850lbs left. My wife, the kids (combined weight, 50lbs...using 100 each for future reference) and myself weigh in at 550 total, and 300lbs of crap come out to 14,500lbs...not being considerate of my 168lbs of gas at full tank at this point.

Now, explain to me the tongue weight thing...it is considered payload because it is directly linked to the vehicle...so do I get to subtract the full weight of the tongue from the trailer?

I would also like to know how to calculate trailer length/wheelbase "comfortability" numbers as well. How can I tell what my 119" wheelbase will tow comfortably?? Is there a scientific formula? Or is it just seat of the pants?

Thanks everyone!

Sam

j54mark · 02-27-2005, 07:58 AM

There are several formulas floating around on the 'net concerning wheelbase for a given trailer size. None are based on anything more than guesswork, so far as I can see. And I do not see how a generic forumla could ever be developed when there are so many towing platforms. All the following factors will have an effect: wheelbase, track, solid axle(s) vs. independent suspension, center of gravity, stiffness of the frame, distance from the rear axle of the tow vehicle to the hitch ball, type of sway and load leveling equipment, weight balance of the coach, number of axles, aerodynamics of the coach, and others that probably will occur to me later.

That said, one formula that makes as much sense as any to me says the wheelbase should be at least half of the distance from the center of the ball coupler to the center of the rearmost axle.

Under any reckoning, 119" is a short wheelbase. And the Expedition has a hight center of gravity. But the 25' Airstreams tow well, and are not particularly long.

The tongue weight issue falls into two seperate, but related categories. If you use a load leveling hitch (and you should), not ALL the tongue weight will fall on the tow vehicle. But for calculation of the gross vehicle weight as well as the allowable load on the rear axle, I would pretend it does. For calculation of the gross combined vehicle weight restriction, ignore tongue weight as it is just a subset of the coach weight.

Mark

yosemitesam · 02-27-2005, 10:16 AM

Mark,

Interesting insights! So using that formula, I should not have a trailer who's wheelbase from hitch to rear axle is more than 19.8 feet.

Now, if Airstream and others would publish this figure, it would make choosing a bit easier!

So between a weight distributing hitch, anti sway and also an airhitch receiver, I should be ok? I would guess that these things would only lead to helping with a slightly longer trailer than normally doable...even with the weight requirements met.

Thanks again,

Sam

Quote:

Originally Posted by j54mark

There are several formulas floating around on the 'net concerning wheelbase for a given trailer size. None are based on anything more than guesswork, so far as I can see. And I do not see how a generic forumla could ever be developed when there are so many towing platforms. All the following factors will have an effect: wheelbase, track, solid axle(s) vs. independent suspension, center of gravity, stiffness of the frame, distance from the rear axle of the tow vehicle to the hitch ball, type of sway and load leveling equipment, weight balance of the coach, number of axles, aerodynamics of the coach, and others that probably will occur to me later.

That said, one formula that makes as much sense as any to me says the wheelbase should be at least half of the distance from the center of the ball coupler to the center of the rearmost axle.

Under any reckoning, 119" is a short wheelbase. And the Expedition has a hight center of gravity. But the 25' Airstreams tow well, and are not particularly long.

The tongue weight issue falls into two seperate, but related categories. If you use a load leveling hitch (and you should), not ALL the tongue weight will fall on the tow vehicle. But for calculation of the gross vehicle weight as well as the allowable load on the rear axle, I would pretend it does. For calculation of the gross combined vehicle weight restriction, ignore tongue weight as it is just a subset of the coach weight.

Mark

markdoane · 02-27-2005, 04:38 PM

Sam,

You need to do a little more math. A lot of people have found that they exceed the rear axle gross wt rating long before they reach the gross combination maximum. Also, it's pretty much a consensus that your trailer should not be more that 75% of the rated tow capacity. You're close to 85%.

The reason there isn't a scientific basis for the wheelbase rule is that the most critical variable is the tire adhesion and sidewall stiffness.

yosemitesam · 02-27-2005, 11:52 PM

Interesting! Thanks man...that is usefull info for sure. You guys are going to talk me into a 1 ton dually for sure!

Quote:

Originally Posted by markdoane

Sam,

You need to do a little more math. A lot of people have found that they exceed the rear axle gross wt rating long before they reach the gross combination maximum. Also, it's pretty much a consensus that your trailer should not be more that 75% of the rated tow capacity. You're close to 85%.

The reason there isn't a scientific basis for the wheelbase rule is that the most critical variable is the tire adhesion and sidewall stiffness.

Torpedo Family · 04-20-2005, 06:25 AM

I have a friend that wants a 25' Airstream and ONLY wants an automobile to pull with. NO truck NO suv, anyone got a suggestion?

vajeep · 04-20-2005, 07:47 AM

I have heard that the Crown Victoria sedan is a great solid tow car.

AirHeadRik · 04-20-2005, 09:59 AM

Land Rover Discovery

InsideOut · 04-20-2005, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torpedo Family

I have a friend that wants a 25' Airstream and ONLY wants an automobile to pull with. NO truck NO suv, anyone got a suggestion?

The vintage trailers are lighter would have more options...

Shari

Martha · 04-22-2005, 09:05 AM

With our Ford 150 V6 nearing 200,000 miles and a '68 Overlander/26ft, we are looking for a tow vehicle.
My understanding is the the 150 V6 is really minimum.
Guess my choice would be a diesel 250, but I would rather have the interior space for dogs than a pickup.
I've read all the posts. An Excursion seems like overkill for the vintage trailer, but a midsize SUV would be too light, I understand.
I'm looking forward to reading the responses to what "cars" would tow a vintage airstream.
The Toyota Highlander looks a little too light to tow the 26' overlander, doesn't it?

markdoane · 04-22-2005, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torpedo Family

I have a friend that wants a 25' Airstream and ONLY wants an automobile to pull with. NO truck NO suv, anyone got a suggestion?

Sure. Go to http://www.canamrv.ca/content.asp?id=17&uid=

By their reckoning you can use a 1994 Dodge Intrepid, or a 2005 Chrysler 300C Hemi.

Go for it!

(postscript: there is some diagreement whether this is a good idea)

vajeep · 04-22-2005, 09:30 AM

Martha,
We also have an Overlander (1976 27') After much study and information from the forum we decided on a 2500 Suburban. With the price of fuel Chevy is making great deals on their Suburban's. I liked the heavy duty features on the 2500, but I am sure the 1500 Suburban would have worked also.
If some one wants to tow with a car it is a personal choice, but by the time you add the hitch, trany cooler, oil cooler, mirrors etc... I am not sure the savings would be worth all the trouble.
Abe

overlander64 · 04-22-2005, 07:20 PM

Greetings Martha!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martha

With our Ford 150 V6 nearing 200,000 miles and a '68 Overlander/26ft, we are looking for a tow vehicle. My understanding is the the 150 V6 is really minimum. Guess my choice would be a diesel 250, but I would rather have the interior space for dogs than a pickup.

I've read all the posts. An Excursion seems like overkill for the vintage trailer, but a midsize SUV would be too light, I understand. I'm looking forward to reading the responses to what "cars" would tow a vintage airstream. The Toyota Highlander looks a little too light to tow the 26' overlander, doesn't it?

Based on the information that I have been able to find, you won't find any recent model cars with a trailer tow rating much in excess of 2,500 pounds. It has been several years since the full-size Ford Crown Victoria and Mercury Grand Marquis had even a 5,000 pound trailer tow limit; and the 5,000 pound+ trailer tow ratings at GM for full-sized sedans/station wagons died when the Caprice Classic/Buick Roadmaster/Cadillac Fleetwood Broughams with the 5.7 liter V8 were discontinued several years ago.

If you haven't had your Overlander weighed when it is ready for a vacation, try having it weighed before looking at tow vehicles -- you may be surprised -- I know that I was when I had my '64 weighed. Just to verify the factory data, I had mine weighed empty and found that its actual empty weight was 4,440 pounds (factory indicated 3,930 pounds) with an empty hitch weight of 475 pounds (factory indicated 405 pounds) -- the difference can be attributed to several factors including a slightly larger replacement refrigerator, 40 pound rather than 20 pound LP tanks, curbside awning, bathroom window awning, bedroom window awning, air conditioner, and innerspring mattresses rather than foam. When fully loaded for an extended vacation, my Overlander tips the scales at 6,100 pounds gross weight with a tongue weight of around 750 pounds (depends upon how full LP Tanks and fresh water tank happen to be).

My '75 Cadillac with the 8.2 liter V8 has a 6,000 pound trailer tow rating, and is doing all that it can to tow the Overlander when I have pared my packing list to bare minimums -- this is the reason that I rarely tow the Overlander with the Cadillac -- it does work well with the lighter Minuet.

For an Overlander, I agree with Abe, the Suburban in its C/K2500 variant makes a most versatile tow vehicle. At least with the 1999 and earlier, you would be at or above the maximum trailer tow limit with the C/K1500 Suburbans -- when I ordered my '99 K2500 Suburban, the K1500 Suburban had a trailer tow maximum weight rating of 6,000 pounds and the C1500 Suburban had a trailer tow maximum weight rating of 6,500 pounds.

Good luck with your search for the ideal tow vehicle!

Kevin

Ferroequine · 04-22-2005, 07:33 PM

A 2005 Expedition will get you a 5.4L, 3 valve, 300HP engine. Apparantly, towing with the IRS is quite nice also. And an Expedition will fit into your garage nicely!

Our Expedition has proven more than capable of towing the 75 Safari...

Ferroequine · 04-22-2005, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yosemitesam

A year later...is 150lbs a worthy difference? And also 4 inches of wheelbase? I have a cousin with an Armada...thing is falling apart at the seems with 24,000 miles on the clock...been through 4 sets of rotors, 2 front seats, and the dealer can't seem to figure out why roof liner with the DVD player is shaking so badly you can't see the screen...

Great tow vehicle though...they are towing a triple axle boat trailer with a 26' Advantage Boat...pretty heavy I guess...boat and trailer are around 6,500 lbs. Tows real easy.

The biggest thing to keep in mind with the Armada, Titan etc. is the drivetrain and rear end. These parts are not heavy duty, and will not stand up to daily towing abuse the way Ford/Chev/Dodge will. IIRC, the rear end on the Titan is only a 7"...

Martha · 05-05-2005, 08:52 AM

Thanks for the help....I guess the Suburban is a good choice....I have been seeing them for sale alot lately!
Good time to go looking....

LittleRadio · 05-05-2005, 12:41 PM

My 2cents:

Get the biggest, most powerful engine you can find. Get a 4.10 limited-slip rear axle. Get trans and power steering auxillary cooling, get brakefluid cooling and HD engine cooling (some of this stuff may require aftermarket work).

My choice? Ford E-350 6.0L PowerStroke Diesel with aftermarket cooling as mentioned above. Roomy, fuel efficient (relatively speaking), durable, and three-bags full of torque (ok, not as much as the Ram Cummins... but then again, you get more interior room!)

Hippo · 05-05-2005, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LittleRadio

My 2cents:

Get the biggest, most powerful engine you can find. Get a 4.10 limited-slip rear axle. Get trans and power steering auxillary cooling, get brakefluid cooling and HD engine cooling (some of this stuff may require aftermarket work).

My choice? Ford E-350 6.0L PowerStroke Diesel with aftermarket cooling as mentioned above. Roomy, fuel efficient (relatively speaking), durable, and three-bags full of torque (ok, not as much as the Ram Cummins... but then again, you get more interior room!)

Get the new issue of Truck Trends Magazine International has 3 new tow vehicles for trailers.
I tow a 1975 AS 25 foot trailer with a 2002 F250 4X4 crewcab V10 power gas. Get towing 9.5mpg and no trailer get 12.5mpg. It works for us.
Chuck
WBCCI#7854

Torii · 05-05-2005, 02:43 PM

I tow a 1975 25' AS with my 2000 Chevy 1500 / 5.3 litre V8 (factory equipped tow package) According to the manual I am well within my weight limits. There are certainly times when I wouldn't mind having a stronger truck but most times it performs perfectly. I get 10mpg when towing the airstream and 19mpg when I'm not towing. I had been considering upgrading to a different tow vehicle but with gas prices the way they are I think I'll stay with my current setup.

Anyone else tow with a 1/2 ton? I sense that most are running 3/4 ton or bigger...