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Old 04-11-2018, 02:04 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by DBinSD View Post
P.S. I am still waiting

If you would like to continue to try and disprove what I have said above then do so, with a fact! Instead of trying to impress us (ASSumed) low life, concept conflating, laymen mortals with how much you think you know.

Otherwise, lets move on hopefully without stooping to insults again.
You're out of your element and arguing the wrong thing. I don't owe you any explanation on the "magic of 5252". I've said enough and you've proven that you're only looking to argue. So I'll bow out and let you figure that out yourself on the internet.

The simple matter is that any motor, even a diesel, is doing work with horsepower.

Torque only describes how it goes about making that horsepower.
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Old 04-11-2018, 02:07 PM   #42
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27' thru 33' AS; I would recommend the 3/4 or 1T truck. I like the F250 6.7L diesel but 6.2L works well also. The 3/4 and 1T trucks are well equipped for good size payload, which includes passengers, gear in back, and tongue weight of your AS. It will also provide great torque for pulling and control for an AS that size. The diesel has the added advantage of the engine braking system which I am sure you will come to appreciate if you plan on driving in any mountainous areas... Good luck and always ask for advise here on the Forum...were all "full of it"! (just kidding)
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Old 04-11-2018, 02:58 PM   #43
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You're out of your element and arguing the wrong thing. I don't owe you any explanation on the "magic of 5252".
I'm certain most people are "out of their element" in discussions with you.

No, you don't owe me any explanation but, you owe it to yourself to understand the "magic" of it when you choose to say I was wrong about HP taking over (the mo bigger number) after 5252 as well as it just being an observation yet refuse to recognize the (constant) of T/HP crossover in engines designed for greater RPM (gas) and how HP can only exceed torque after 5252rpm. That's on you

Good day!
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Old 04-11-2018, 03:58 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by DBinSD View Post
I'm certain most people are "out of their element" in discussions with you.

No, you don't owe me any explanation but, you owe it to yourself to understand the "magic" of it when you choose to say I was wrong about HP taking over (the mo bigger number) after 5252 as well as it just being an observation yet refuse to recognize the (constant) of T/HP crossover in engines designed for greater RPM (gas) and how HP can only exceed torque after 5252rpm. That's on you

Good day!
Your confusion arises from your direct comparison of numbers (hp and torque) that are measured using different units. The 5252 is simply an accident of math, it has no real significance.

To demonstrate this, let's use metric hp, as many countries other than the US do. Instead of 33,000 ft-lbs/sec as the measure of 1 hp, it is now 32,550 ft-lbs/sec. So, the crossover point, your magic point when torque apparently takes over, is now 5180. Note that this is for the same engine. So, if you want your torque to be "more important because it is a mo bigger number" just drive to a metric country. There is one right next door. Same engine. Same performance. Same torque. Just a different accident of math.

If torque was in fact "taking over" why would it do it at a different point simply by being driven in a different jurisdiction?

How about a non hp/torque example of mixing up units? I am 6'4" tall, so 6.33 feet. That is true when I am in Washington State, just south of here. When I cross back into Canada, I am now 193 cm tall. Magic. Would you say that my height has changed because it is a "mo bigger number"? If I weigh 190 lbs in both jurisdictions, then has height taken over from weight by travelling north? Do you see how nonsensical that idea is?
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Old 04-11-2018, 09:21 PM   #45
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Your confusion arises from your direct comparison of numbers (hp and torque) that are measured using different units. The 5252 is simply an accident of math, it has no real significance.

To demonstrate this, let's use metric hp, as many countries other than the US do. Instead of 33,000 ft-lbs/sec as the measure of 1 hp, it is now 32,550 ft-lbs/sec. So, the crossover point, your magic point when torque apparently takes over, is now 5180. Note that this is for the same engine. So, if you want your torque to be "more important because it is a mo bigger number" just drive to a metric country. There is one right next door. Same engine. Same performance. Same torque. Just a different accident of math.

If torque was in fact "taking over" why would it do it at a different point simply by being driven in a different jurisdiction?

How about a non hp/torque example of mixing up units? I am 6'4" tall, so 6.33 feet. That is true when I am in Washington State, just south of here. When I cross back into Canada, I am now 193 cm tall. Magic. Would you say that my height has changed because it is a "mo bigger number"? If I weigh 190 lbs in both jurisdictions, then has height taken over from weight by travelling north? Do you see how nonsensical that idea is?
The only response to that mess is WOW


We should move on.
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Old 04-11-2018, 11:39 PM   #46
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The only response to that mess is WOW
Yeah, that is what I thought when you claimed that hp took over from torque at some magic point.
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Old 04-12-2018, 04:49 AM   #47
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To demonstrate this, let's use metric hp, as many countries other than the US do. Instead of 33,000 ft-lbs/sec as the measure of 1 hp, it is now 32,550 ft-lbs/sec. So, the crossover point, your magic point when torque apparently takes over, is now 5180. Note that this is for the same engine. So, if you want your torque to be "more important because it is a mo bigger number" just drive to a metric country. There is one right next door. Same engine. Same performance. Same torque. Just a different accident of math.

Wait, so if I am in Nova Scotia, then the power band on my truck has changed? I wish you would have posted that last year, it would have saved me from selling the Sierra 1500 and getting the F350 6.7L diesel, when it had so much trouble getting up that hill..
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Old 04-12-2018, 06:53 AM   #48
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Towing Vehicle

I am a newby for towing but chose the safer route for tow vehicle by getting the 2017 F250 King Ranch diesel. We are pulling a 2018 33FB Classic and I can tell you the towing options along with the camera package helped me considerably in towing and backing. Today's technology with cameras is really amazing and with a tow vehicle that is almost 20ft long itself, the cameras do come in handy.

Finally, I went with the diesel for its torque, longevity & higher efficiency over gas when towing in high elevations but with the understanding that initial and recurring costs for this would be higher.

My towing mpg is between 13.5 & 15 and none towing on highway is 18-20. I love the truck & am happy with my choice to err on the side of caution by choosing the larger size TV.

Like others before me have said there are trade-offs for so many things when making this decision and certainly the size and weight of your trailer impact your choice.

Best of luck
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Old 04-12-2018, 07:25 AM   #49
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Yeah, that is what I thought when you claimed that hp took over from torque at some magic point.

This should be a simple task for you then.

Please provide ANY dyno sheet results of a street gas engine that, above 5252 rpm is producing more torque than HP.
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Old 04-12-2018, 10:59 AM   #50
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To demonstrate this, let's use metric hp, as many countries other than the US do. Instead of 33,000 ft-lbs/sec as the measure of 1 hp, it is now 32,550 ft-lbs/sec. So, the crossover point, your magic point when torque apparently takes over, is now 5180. Note that this is for the same engine. So, if you want your torque to be "more important because it is a mo bigger number" just drive to a metric country. There is one right next door. Same engine. Same performance. Same torque. Just a different accident of math.

Wait, so if I am in Nova Scotia, then the power band on my truck has changed? I wish you would have posted that last year, it would have saved me from selling the Sierra 1500 and getting the F350 6.7L diesel, when it had so much trouble getting up that hill..
Lol, of course it hasnít changed. Just shows the silliness of thinking that 5252 rpm means anything.
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Old 04-12-2018, 11:04 AM   #51
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This should be a simple task for you then.

Please provide ANY dyno sheet results of a street gas engine that, above 5252 rpm is producing more torque than HP.
Again with the focus on the numerical values of hp and torque and ignoring the units of measurement. I already pointed out that if you use different units for hp and torque then 5252 no longer has any significance.

You need to get your head around what hp and torque actually are.
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Old 04-12-2018, 11:33 AM   #52
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Iíve been enjoying this thread.
The Hp/torque relationship is difficult one to understand. This guy on YouTube is very good at explaining engineering in terms us regular folks can understand.

I encourage you to watch this. It addresses the 5252 debate going on here.

https://youtu.be/lt7iUBE3_AE
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Old 04-12-2018, 01:26 PM   #53
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Forever Grateful

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to the thread. I really appreciate you sharing your opinions and discussions with one another. I will let you know what we purchase come mid May.
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Old 04-13-2018, 09:40 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Nightmare67 View Post
I’ve been enjoying this thread.
The Hp/torque relationship is difficult one to understand. This guy on YouTube is very good at explaining engineering in terms us regular folks can understand.

I encourage you to watch this. It addresses the 5252 debate going on here.

https://youtu.be/lt7iUBE3_AE
Great video and explanation of HP & Torque; but, not sure it answered the age old question that some of these folks are arguing about? All I know is, my F250 has 925lbs of torque and it pulls my 28' AS along pretty darned nice in the Rockies or when I need acceleration, without any strain... The overall power/torque in combination with my exhaust brake or engine brake (you pick) makes my towing experience effortless compared to pulling my previous 25' AS with my F150 EB. And, as I said, I loved driving my EB.... To be clear, the EB handled the power/torque combination well with the 25; no issues there. I did experience some overheating when pulling up steep grades in summer at 60+ speeds, and had a few concerning issues with brakes when traversing a winding steep highway a few times. Similar drive with the F250 and the 28' posed no such issues and much less stress for me...but the EB was much more fun to drive around without the trailer and certainly easier to park.
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Old 04-13-2018, 10:15 AM   #55
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Tow Vehicle Advice Needed

Hi Gypysy... the video I posted was addressed to those here discussing the 5252 number.

As I wrote in my post above, Iíve been enjoying this thread. We recently picked up our new International Sig 30. On the way home I was chatting to Lovey about this thread, torque and HP.

We stopped at a rest area where the on-ramp back onto the highway is long and quite steep (appx 1/3 to 1/2 mile and well over 6%)

I explained to her prior to the ramp, ďour 900 lbs of torque will allow us to easily pull up this ramp at at 1200 or so RPM. Our 385 HP will allow us to get up the ramp at a high speed.Ē I floored the accelerator and we reach 70mph (my personal max speed while towing) just prior to the merge.

Iím not bragging. Any of the late model HD diesel pick-ups will do the same. I just thought it was a good illustration of TQ vs. HP.

Hereís another example I like.

A sprinter (HP) can run the 50 in 6 seconds.

A linebacker (TQ) can run it in 10.

Give them both a 40lb bag of dog food.

The sprinters time will increase while the linebackers time will remain the same.

And now, opposing arguments in:
3.... 2.... 1.......
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Old 04-13-2018, 12:03 PM   #56
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Phone Andy Thompson at Can-am RV in London Ontario. If there was an expert on what can tow what, it's him. You'd be surprised at what vehicles he has modified to tow anything. Ask him for a modified (where the vehicles hitch will need to be beefed up) list, and a list of unmodified vehicles for the length of trailer you plan on pulling.

Of all people, he'd give you the straight goods on what packages or options to buy or not to buy. Be sure to give him all pertinent information, like amount of people, (adults, kids), items you plan to take with you, (generators, bikes) and most important, anticipated terrain you wish to travel, (mountainous or relatively flat land). If you have a peticular brand of manufacturer that you like, or don't like, I'd include that too, but be open to some really bizarre options, as he last towed a 30' new AS with a Chrysler 300C sedan.

I'd phone him just to introduce yourself, and them e-mail him all the information he needs.

As for 27' or 30', you need to go see some trailers and try them out.

Cheers
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If you want good advice, OP, this is how you start. First, you don’t need a truck. Different from wanting one. As most miles are solo, even travelling full time, yes, their safety record matters.

In Towing (as in solo) its steering and handling that matter. Plus braking. Trucks are the worst at all three.

Second, the weight of the trailer is tertiary in importance to its suspension design and aerodynamic qualities. Loss of control accidents with these rigs are due to (1) adverse winds and (2) driver over-reaction. The TT will stay upright when a pickup won’t.

Third, what’s the weight and size of gear that CANNOT be carried in the passenger compartment or TT? You’ll find this question routinely ignored, yet it’s the basis for the choice of a pickup versus, say, a Dodge Durango or Nissan NV-5600 passenger van both of which are far better choices.

The new guys who think their ten or fifteen years “experience “ with pickups is adequate to advise what will or won’t work with an Airstream haven’t got relevant experience. The worst of them can’t be bothered to crack a book or inquire of others. You can stop reading when they speak of how fast it is up a grade.

You want to really do this search well, get on up to London, ON. Thomson & crew have set up more than 10,000 rigs and advise both Airstream and SAE.

Speaking as someone who spent his first twenty years using cars and the past thirty using truck or truck-based, you won’t willingly choose the latter after test driving some of the rigs Andy has available as demonstrators. Ask him for the E-ticket ride in his Jag sedan pulling his 34’.

We all did it this way back when. Wally designed them as they are for this reason: the family car that can also pull an AS. Because the clock has been ticking since then doesn’t mean what the others think: trucks are barely better today than they were after the war. Cars are a world better. And some SUVs (not all, same as with cars) are also better choices.

One thing is certain: outside of that single qualifying parameter of a dozen or more for the retired/full-timer, there’s nothing worse than a pickup to use.

Solo miles predominate. Always have, and always will.

Don’t let the willfully ignorant drown out reason.

.
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Old 04-13-2018, 04:45 PM   #57
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Cummins Diesel

I looked long and hard.
I've has a lot of them, Chevy/Ford/Dodge.
My choice was a 2500 Ram diesel with the Ram Box option.
Purely a personal choice, but the Cummins diesels "built America.
Look around when you drive. I have no empirical data, but my sense is that I am seeing Ram 2:1 over Chevy and Ford.
There is a reason for that.
The Ram 3/4 ton diesel (HD suspension, 4x4) is one of the best riding vehicles I have ever owned.
Never a hiccup.
Good luck.
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Old 04-13-2018, 05:07 PM   #58
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I looked long and hard.
I've has a lot of them, Chevy/Ford/Dodge.
My choice was a 2500 Ram diesel with the Ram Box option.
Purely a personal choice, but the Cummins diesels "built America.
Look around when you drive. I have no empirical data, but my sense is that I am seeing Ram 2:1 over Chevy and Ford.
There is a reason for that.
The Ram 3/4 ton diesel (HD suspension, 4x4) is one of the best riding vehicles I have ever owned.
Never a hiccup.
Good luck.
There is a lot of real data available on sales volumes. For the first three months of 2018, YTD, both Ford and Chev/GM significantly outsold RAM sales in full size pickups. Ford more than doubled RAM.

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2018/04...arch-2018.html
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Old 04-13-2018, 07:00 PM   #59
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Hi Gypysy... the video I posted was addressed to those here discussing the 5252 number.

As I wrote in my post above, I’ve been enjoying this thread. We recently picked up our new International Sig 30. On the way home I was chatting to Lovey about this thread, torque and HP.

We stopped at a rest area where the on-ramp back onto the highway is long and quite steep (appx 1/3 to 1/2 mile and well over 6%)

I explained to her prior to the ramp, “our 900 lbs of torque will allow us to easily pull up this ramp at at 1200 or so RPM. Our 385 HP will allow us to get up the ramp at a high speed.” I floored the accelerator and we reach 70mph (my personal max speed while towing) just prior to the merge.

I’m not bragging. Any of the late model HD diesel pick-ups will do the same. I just thought it was a good illustration of TQ vs. HP.

Here’s another example I like.

A sprinter (HP) can run the 50 in 6 seconds.

A linebacker (TQ) can run it in 10.

Give them both a 40lb bag of dog food.

The sprinters time will increase while the linebackers time will remain the same.

And now, opposing arguments in:
3.... 2.... 1.......
So let's give some real world number to this.

Imagine your sprinter to be a 375hp F150 ecoboost gasser (~4500lbs curb weight). And whatever torque number you like. Make it even lower, cause that will make you happy.

Vs your F250 diesel linebacker at 385hp and 900 torque (~6500lbs of curb weight)

Give them both 40lbs...lets say 4000lbs of load.

Ever heard of power to weight ratio? Or are you guys dreaming up your own "torque to weight ratio"? Torque doesn't even matter in a speed contest.

F150 = (4500 lbs curb weight + 4000 lbs load) / 375 hp = 22.67 lbs/hp
F250 = (6500 lbs curb weight + 4000 lbs load) / 385 hp = 27.27 lbs/hp

One will BLOW the doors off the other. You just lost the grudge match bringing the wrong truck to the drag race.

Stability, that's a different thing.
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Old 04-13-2018, 07:10 PM   #60
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Hereís another example I like.

A sprinter (HP) can run the 50 in 6 seconds.

A linebacker (TQ) can run it in 10.

Give them both a 40lb bag of dog food.

The sprinters time will increase while the linebackers time will remain the same.

And now, opposing arguments in:
3.... 2.... 1.......
Your analogy failed the moment you linked speed to torque. If you like, use torque as a way to point out that maybe the sprinter couldnít lift the extra load from rest. But once they were both running, it is only hp that matters. The faster one has more.
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