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Old 04-09-2018, 11:08 AM   #21
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Pick Your AS Before Your TV

One lesson I've learned the hard way is always pick your Airstream or trailer first, before even looking at tow vehicles.

Once you find the trailer you want, then research the best TV for the job. This will keep you focused on the right decision at the right time.

No one wants to be on the fence about the safety of their TV and having to decide whether or not to drop more cash or gamble with what you have.

Keep your decision in this order and you will be much happier in the long run.
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Old 04-09-2018, 04:05 PM   #22
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After deciding on an Airstream Classic 30', based on price, incentives, tow capacity, and reliability we selected the RAM Bighorn 2500 i6.7L Cummins Turbo diesel with crew cab. It gets about 11.4 mpg hauling the trailer back from the dealer in Missouri.
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Old 04-09-2018, 04:39 PM   #23
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3/4 ton

I have an F150 Ecoboost with Propride hitch with 28’. But I don’t pull all the time. Still use it for daily driving. If I was going to tow all year I would go with 3/4 ton due to heavier brakes etc and more payload. Diesel or gas would be a toss up.
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Old 04-09-2018, 04:52 PM   #24
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Andy should charge a consulting fee for all the advice he's giving out - I've seen so many referrals to him by this forum's members, he must be good and if he is, then he should charge something, time is money.
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Old 04-09-2018, 05:32 PM   #25
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What type of tow vehicle

When I was shopping last year, the best advice I got was from the service manager I've known for years. He started pulling a 33 foot "brand X" with a 1/2 ton, and later switched to the 3/4 size.
Reason: control going down hill. In long downhill mountains, the trailer will want to push the the truck. On curvy roads, this can challenge the control. He related it was "scary" with the smaller truck, and the stronger suspension of the larger truck handles it better.
He also advised me if I stay under 28 feet of trailer, the 1/2 ton will be OK, but more length than that, it's really worth the jump to 3/4. He chose the gas engine for his 3/4, but admits the gas mileage is lousy. He just didn't want to "fool" with the issues of diesel.
I chose a 27 ft Signature which is a 28' chassis. I then chose the top-of-line 1/2 ton with the largest V-8 available. My rationale was getting the most torque possible without going diesel. My truck also came with all of the latest "trailer control" electronics and mechanics available at the time.
For me, the truck and trailer are a good match. I pulled the trailer from Arkansas to Los Angeles, and recently, Arkansas to the Big Bend area of Texas. Each trip averaged 13mpg at 60-65mph. (Diesels may get 15, but the cost difference??)
In case you're wondering, mine is a GMC Sierra Denali 1500. I read that those with the GMC 2500/diesel are quite happy with. that.
IF you can wait, GMC is advertising a "Fresh" upgrade for the Sierras which includes much more technology aimed at control and visibility of trailers. They also claim their truck beds will be made of carbon fiber, which should be lighter, and thus increasing the payload. No numbers are out yet, and I predict it will be "PRICEY!" And, yes, my wife has given me the "green light" to pursue the improvements to the trailer control aspects. (I'm not sure I really need it, but one can certainly ask questions, eh?)
Good Luck.
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Old 04-09-2018, 06:59 PM   #26
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Another vote for the 2500 GM ...but who is counting ...
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Old 04-09-2018, 11:34 PM   #27
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You diesel guys keep telling yourself that diesel is the only way. True, they are the torque kings. But they are not the only player when it comes to overall pulling power.

There's very few diesel engines that make over 400hp, and only the very top shelf ones do. While there are many many gas motors that make over 400hp. Practically any 400hp+ gasser will get to the top of the hill before that diesel, because it's also likely carrying waaay less overall weight.

You might like your big rig sounds, big rig ride, and nautical big rig moves. But it's not for everyone. I do agree that for a full timer, carrying the house worth of goods, and open roads, a 3/4 ton might be the way to go.

I'm from the SUV crowd. I don't believe you diesel guys really understand what your missing in terms of ride quality, maneuverability, and turbine smooth pulling power you can find in a modern SUV or 1/2 ton. And that's okay, because that's not your style. Just don't be shocked that there's effective and preferable options for others outside of your diesel bubble.
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Old 04-10-2018, 01:36 AM   #28
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Tow Vehicle Advice Needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by pteck View Post
I'm from the SUV crowd. I don't believe you diesel guys really understand what your missing in terms of ride quality, maneuverability, and turbine smooth pulling power you can find in a modern SUV or 1/2 ton. And that's okay, because that's not your style. Just don't be shocked that there's effective and preferable options for others outside of your diesel bubble.

Well - I put 25k miles towing my 25’ and another 3k miles towing my 30’ with a very capable (1,400lb payload, 850lb tongue weight, 8,500lb towing, 400hp, 413ft-lb torque, 121” wheelbase with independent suspension) modern/lux 1/2 ton suv with a precisely calibrated WD hitch setup.

I swore I’d never ever own “a truck”.

In the end for the 30’ though, after very careful consideration I decided to give it a go (move to a bigger TV platform). The 3/4 ton with the L5P diesel does better for our family’s personal needs. My wife does a lot of the driving too and soon after getting the truck she took us and our 2 little ones + the dog up and over the continental divid on I-70 in the absolutely monsoon-esk pouring rain, in heavy traffic that was moving at highway speed, and then down 7-8% grade for 10 miles .....without any stress involved whatsoever - it made me smile as I peacefully worked on my laptop in the passenger seat and the kids watched a movie in the iPad.

Everyone’s needs are different - I certainly don’t bash SUV owners - they are a great fit in many cases, and ours served us well for many years on many adventures across the country.

Both platforms have their pros and cons no doubt.

Life is short, happiness is good - that’s why we own Airstreams
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Old 04-10-2018, 07:27 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteck View Post
-snip- There's very few diesel engines that make over 400hp, and only the very top shelf ones do. While there are many many gas motors that make over 400hp. Practically any 400hp+ gasser will get to the top of the hill before that diesel -snip- I'm from the SUV crowd. I don't believe you diesel guys really understand what your missing in terms of ride quality, maneuverability, and turbine smooth pulling power you can find in a modern SUV or 1/2 ton.


Understand that ANY motor below 52xx RPM is generating more torque than HP. Above 52xx the HP takes over as the “pulling force”.

Diesels rarely go above 5k RPM and new ones make over 800 pd-ft of torque, DOUBLE any gas. They pull far more and with greater ease. There is a reason big rigs do not run on gas.

I will give you the SUV / or 1/2 ton is more comfortable in ride. However, if you look at most people with diesels, they HAVE TOWED with smaller then upgraded. Many of those that thump the smaller TV drum have NEVER towed with a diesel truck. Until you do, you will never know why so many have upgraded.

No one ever said it won’t work with a smaller TV.

Diesel truck owners just know it can be done much easier.
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Old 04-10-2018, 10:08 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DBinSD View Post
Understand that ANY motor below 52xx RPM is generating more torque than HP. Above 52xx the HP takes over as the “pulling force”.

Diesels rarely go above 5k RPM and new ones make over 800 pd-ft of torque, DOUBLE any gas. They pull far more and with greater ease. There is a reason big rigs do not run on gas.
There is a difference in gear ratio between the two. 400 hp is 400 hp. Torque is more fun but power and torque are two different units of measure. One doesn’t “take over” above a certain rpm. 5252 is a multiplication factor, using torque and rpm, to determine an engine’s power output.

Torque can be multiplied with gears. Power cannot. Gas engines have a lot lower cylinder pressure and do less work per revolution of the crankshaft. Hence more revolutions per minute to pull a given load at a given speed. Torque of an engine is measured at the crankshaft, before the converter or transmission. It is a twisting force, hence the term “foot-lbs”. Horsepower is lb-ft per unit time. Two completely different units. You need one to have the other.

With that said, the diesel version of my truck has quite a bit more power than the gas engine I have.
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Old 04-10-2018, 10:27 AM   #31
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5252 is the RPM at which most engine power bands cross over and has nothing to do with gearing.

An engine designed to rev Above 5252RPM the HP will ALWAYS exceed it’s torque value after that RPM. Thus above 5252 rpm (gasser going up incline) the HP does take over.

Yes, I do know they are different.
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Old 04-10-2018, 10:30 AM   #32
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Additionally, if the motors designed max rpm is less that 5252 rpm (Diesels) it's torque will ALWAYS be higher than its HP.

In an engine, you can NOT have HP WITHOUT torque but, it CAN have torque WITHOUT HP.
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Old 04-10-2018, 10:48 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by LessOrdinary View Post
We are looking to buy an AS 27’ or 30’ Flying Cloud or Classic. What type of tow vehicle should we get? We are considering Ford F-150 or F-250 and Chevrolet Silverado 1500 or 2500. Car dealerships have advised us to get the bigger of the two models. We will be driving all over the U.S. all year long.
All advice and opinions are welcome and appreciated on the tow vehicle and model of AS. Thanks!!!
You obviously need at least an F350 or 3500. Nothing else will do. Just to be sure get the F450.
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Old 04-10-2018, 11:06 AM   #34
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2 things I like about my diesel truck.

1. Exhaust brake. Makes stopping way better in my opinion. I have driven my sister gasser F350 and her SOB trailer and its night in day difference and not for me.

2. Diesel lanes to fill up. Some places have the nice RV lanes but if not the trucker lane is fine by me. Don't have to worry about navigating a busy fuel island and cars going in every direction. So with a 36 gallon tank the kids/wifey usually need a pit stop before I need fuel.
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Old 04-10-2018, 08:58 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by DBinSD View Post
Additionally, if the motors designed max rpm is less that 5252 rpm (Diesels) it's torque will ALWAYS be higher than its HP.

In an engine, you can NOT have HP WITHOUT torque but, it CAN have torque WITHOUT HP.
Countryboy59 is spot on. While an interesting observation, there is nothing truly special about 5252 that you're making it out to be in regards to power.

You know how as a kid we learning about multiplying anything with 0... equals 0. That's your beautiful 800 ft lbs of torque without rpm. 0 big fat horsepower. It's towing nothing and going nowhere.

Torque only make power (hp) when allowed to act through a distance (rpm). So while diesels can't spin as fast, they do need to spin! Just that their torque band is very narrow relative to gassers, so their torque falls off early.
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Old 04-10-2018, 09:09 PM   #36
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I have no argument that one has to use the right tool for the right job. For a larger AS, say 30ft+, it's not only about the motor. We agree that one has to have a vehicle with the right motor AND structure. Yet that also means that a little Ecodiesel under a Jeep won't do the job.

Some people here, when they say diesel, mean the big hairy chested 3/4 ton diesels. Yes, they are badass. Yet others start thinking their baby diesel (without any engine brake equipment I might add), might do the job too. And because they make 400+ ft lbs, while making barely a bit of hp over 200, will out tow a big block gasser. And that's why we run in circles.
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Old 04-11-2018, 07:34 AM   #37
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Countryboy59 is spot on. While an interesting observation, there is nothing truly special about 5252 that you're making it out to be in regards to power.
LoL

An "observation" ? You are arguing and call it an observation? It is a mathematical given FACT. ANY engine that is designed to exceed 5000rpm will have torque overcome by horsepower at THAT RPM. It does NOT change! Keep in mind...it is just math.

Just the same fact applies to when I said an engine designed for lower RPM will ALWAYS have the highest output as TORQUE not HP.

Additionally, my example of torque without HP illustrates the separate but combined relationship. Torque is what is measured, HP is what is calculated, from that torque.

Feel free to disprove the torque / HP crossover @ 5252 RPM given. I'll wait
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Old 04-11-2018, 10:50 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteck View Post
t

Countryboy59 is spot on. While an interesting observation, there is nothing truly special about 5252 that you're making it out to be in regards to power.

You know how as a kid we learning about multiplying anything with 0... equals 0. That's your beautiful 800 ft lbs of torque without rpm. 0 big fat horsepower. It's towing nothing and going nowhere.

Torque only make power (hp) when allowed to act through a distance (rpm). So while diesels can't spin as fast, they do need to spin! Just that their torque band is very narrow relative to gassers, so their torque falls off early.
Torque is a force measurement. It is static. Force applied at a speed to do work is power. It’s a tough concept for non engineers. It’s like volts and watts. I gave up trying to explain it to people after I got out of college, and that was a long time ago.
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Old 04-11-2018, 11:37 AM   #39
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Torque is a force measurement. It is static. Force applied at a speed to do work is power. It’s a tough concept for non engineers. It’s like volts and watts. I gave up trying to explain it to people after I got out of college, and that was a long time ago.
Yup. Hard for layman to not conflate the different parameters.

Which is why marketing is such an art. Have to talk about things at a digestable level. Like keeping it to peak torque and HP. Big number must be mo better.
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Old 04-11-2018, 01:09 PM   #40
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Yup. Hard for layman to not conflate the different parameters.

Conflate? Even though above, I stated the SEPARATE yet combined relationship in an engine? OKAY

Which is why marketing is such an art. Have to talk about things at a digestable level. Like keeping it to peak torque and HP. Big number must be mo better.

Perhaps your "understanding" of the applied concept is not good enough to explain to such low lives, would be my assumption?
While being a "engineer" you lack the applicable understanding of gas engines Torque/HP cross -over and dismiss the RPM of 5252 as an "interesting observation" all while still thinking that HP does not take over past that RPM? EVEN using YOUR OWN examples (Titan XD video) I pointed this out to you!
Perhaps you need it feed to you at a more digestible level?
P.S. I am still waiting

If you would like to continue to try and disprove what I have said above then do so, with a fact! Instead of trying to impress us (ASSumed) low life, concept conflating, laymen mortals with how much you think you know.

Otherwise, lets move on hopefully without stooping to insults again.
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