The right match for a CCD 28 - 1/2 ton Burb

[nangoff]

I recently purchased a new CCD 28 and plan to pull it with a 2001 Suburban with 50,000 miles on it. Plan on going on the Alaskan trip this summer with Air Stream.

Couple of questions.

Is the CCD 28 and a Suburban a good match? The trip will be well over 6,000 miles, do I have a reasonable chance of making it?

Is there a list of things I need to take?

Thanks,

Gerry

[Silvertwinkie]

Need a bit more specifics about the Suburban.

1/2 ton or 3/4 ton?
Tow package?
Hitch?

Etc.......

[j54mark]

Which Suburban? 1500? 2500? Which engine?

Mark

[nangoff]

Guys,


It's a 1500, 4x4, 3.73 rear end, factory trailer package, vortec 5300 (5.3 liter) v8 engine, 7200 lb GVW rating. Hitch is a Reese Dual Cam "High Performance" Sway Control model 26002 with a "high performance" ball mount.

What do you think?

Thanks,

Gerry

[j54mark]

You are going to be well over the combined vehicle weight limit, and almost certainly over the gross vehicle weight limit.

Some members of these forums have reported weak performance of that dirvetrain in the mountains with lighter coaches than you are pulling, but I do not speak from personal experience here.

To give yourself a chance you will need a well sized auxilliary transmission cooler. I think I would switch to synthetic transmission oil and differential lube (at least in the rear). You will need load rated tires - "D" I should think, front and rear.

The Reese Dual Cam is justifiably popular - if set up properly it should be a good choice.

The better alternative, by far, is a 2500 series Suburban with the 6.0 and 4.10 OR the 8.1 and 3.73. You still will need the transmission cooler and load rated tires.

Good luck,

Mark

[Silvertwinkie]

Gerry,

I have the same dual cam system and it's a nice hitch, but won't really do much in the area of power, etc.

Here is what I'm doing (and I am not very comfortable yet with it). I have a high output 350 V8 sedan. I have installed all the coolers, 3.73 gears, suspension, etc. The car was rated at 5000 w/ 2.93 gears. Our Bambi weighed 4600 gross. The new Safari has a gross weight of 6300 lbs. In reality I may tip the scales somewhere around 6100lbs. So by the book, I've already exceeded the cars specs by 1100lbs approx.

If I had my way (monetary), I'd go out and get a Duramax/Allision combo. Money being what it is thought I will stick with my current vehicle and stay clear of the mountains.

My gut and the numbers tell me that you will be able to tow the 28' coach but like what I am doing, it's not the best thing. However, you are surely in the larger engine and/or 3/4 ton range. If at all possible, particularly if you plan on driving in the mountains, would consider at the very least a 6.0L 2500 or larger if you can swing it.

[hohne]

We have a very similar set-up -- 2003 Suburban 5.3L 4x4 with 373 rear and a 2004 Safari 28W.

Comparing our previous setup -- 1996 Dodge Ram 1500SLT extended cab long bed with the big V8 pulling a 3500 pound Coleman Bayside...

The Suburban does a lot better, as far as torque and such, and it feels a lot better, if you allow me that with the much larger load.
I think the Suburban would take the RAM handily in a 1/4 mile drag race...you press the gas down and it pushes you back in the seat real good.

Our Suburban has a trailering mode that changes the shift points on the tranny, and that makes cruising down the highway a very good experience. The button is on the shift lever...

There are some short (1/2 mile) steep grades hereabouts that are between 3 and 5% -- not a mountain pass by any means, but they slow the 18-wheelers down...we could maintain 60MPH with the engine going about 3000 RPM up and over, with plenty of pedal left -- Gas consumption, according to the instant milage panel, was real bad...1-2 MPG...

DocBlueDevil hereabouts (we have not heard from very recently) has the same setup in Colorado. He said that his rig did fine
on the trip home, and such.

Advice he got was to put a transmission temperature gauge in to monitor that situation -- I have not done so yet, but I will before it gets hot around here, for sure. There are other threads that concerns putting those beasties in...Silvertwinkie has participated in most, if not all of them...

With a 25-40 MPH quartering gusty headwind, we could easily maintain 70 MPH down the highway without any downshifts.
Suburban did OK. In the summer, I plan on keeping speed down and one eye on the temp guages..and stick to the hills here East of the Mississippi.

BTW, our hitch is not as good as yours...

Unfortunately, I have no direct experience to help you with.

[Steve Heywood]

You are going to be well over the combined vehicle weight limit, and almost certainly over the gross vehicle weight limit.


Not so fast.
Yes, if you load a 28CCD to it's GVWR (7300 lbs) and the Sub is loaded to it's GVWR (7200 lbs) you would well over the Sub's GCWR (13000 lbs for this drivetrain).

A better approach would be to load the trailer with the "normal" items taken on a 2-3 week trip, hitch it to the Sub, then weigh the combination.

Obviously a 2500 Sub with a 6.0 & 4.10 gears would be better suited for this trailer, however since you already own the 1500 Sub and DO NOT live in The Rockies I'm will to say that you'll do fine as long as you don't load either the Sub or the trailer anywhere near max weight.

4.10 gears would make a big difference in overall performance. Problem is you own a 4X4 and changing both sets of gear will cost over $1,000!

[nangoff]

Thanks to all of you for your posts.

My Suburban has a "message center" on the dashboard and one of the messages that is supposed to appear is a "transmisson hot warning" message that tells you to (I guess) slow down or pull over and let the transmission cool. It supposedly has a transmission cooler as well as part of the "trailer package" that came with it.

Would this be a satisfactory message to alert you of problems or would you still put a temperature guage in the transmission.

Also, I don't care a lot about "performance" if it means that I will have to slow down to 50 mph or so verses climbing anything in sight at 70 mph.

In rating these weight combinations of car and trailer at some (say) 14,000 pounds, what are they saying exactly. Are they saying that the transmissions will fail or they won't last their normal life or you won't be able to maintain a (say 60 mph) speed up a 5% grade without overheating something?

A couple of other observations. Is the difference between a 2500 and a 1500 something other than the engines? I see a 2500 has a 300 hp 6.0 liter engine vs a 1500 that has a 285 hp 5.3. Is 15 hp the only difference?

Also, the Suburban's manual says it will tow 8,600 lbs and a fully loaded CCD 28 weighs in at 7,300 lbs (GVWR).

I'd like to feel safe / have some margin before going on the Alaska highway / 6 week trip. Is the Alaska highway a torture test for rigs like this?

Thanks,

Gerry

[Silvertwinkie]

Gerry,

I would and did install a trans temp guage. The thing is that I like to monitor engine stuff and heat as much as possible in a somewhat proactive approach. I am unsure what temp sets off the message center display, but for me, I kind of like to see it brewing so that I'm not driving and then all of the sudden...bang....deal with me.

On the Silverado it has the message center and it has a trans temp guage. I am not sure why they don't also have that standard in the Suburbans and Tahoe lines as well.

Eric

[j54mark]

Virtually everything which follows should be prefaced with "might be", or "possibly", because we don't know the weights of the loads involved.

The "message center" warning depends entirely on wherre the temperature warning sensor is set. I simply do not have that information. You will be pressing, or exceeding, the design load limits of your transmission, and yes you are talking about reduced service life. Transmission operating temperatures are the key.

When you are talking about heavy loads at high altitude with steep grades, the issue is not slowing down to 50; it may literally be a question of making it over the top at ANY speed. Even if you have a well matched load and drive train it is quite probable that you will max out at 45 mph on some of the tougher climbs.

And we are talking heavy loads here, aren't we? And mountains. Lots and lots of mountains.

One does not pack up for Alaska in quite the same way as a weekend at a state park. So, yes, with the tongue weight of a 28 CCD, I suspect you will max out the gross of a 1500 series Suburban. This depends, of course, of the number of passengers and your your other gear.

I'm not trying to panic you; however, you are concerned yourself or you would not ask. And I think you are right to do so for clearly at best you are going to be pushing the limits. Alaska is a lot of long, hard travel days each direction and if every day becomes a struggle to get over the next pass it will be even farther!

Mark

[hohne]

...we are sort of banking on one thing ourselves -- both our kids are very petite, and will likely remain that way -- they and their gear weigh next to nothing...

Our 8 year old weighs about 45 pounds, and her sister is about 40...as young adults, they will never weigh as much as I do...



Funny thing is, when I was getting the Safari ready to go to JC for warranty work, I found the eight year old's rock collection -- reminded me of the movie 'Long Long Trailer.' They were in a plastic bag in her bin...it caught my eye...

-Rob

[joshua32064]

Gerry,

I hate to be the pessimistic one, but owning a 28" CCD and a 1500HD with a 6.0 V-8 and 3.73 rear end, I hate to tell you that I would not want to be towing with anything less. I have often told others on the forum that I wish I had a little more power or at least the 4.10 rear end.

I usually travel by myself or with one person and we are not carrying much of a load due to the fact that we are just gone for the weekend. If you are going to be doing some serious driving and driving through mountain ranges, etc. I would NOT want to have the type of set up which you described.

I hope that this helps.

Josh

[nangoff]

Josh,

Well so far I've made it from Nashville to Denver coming up from Texas through the Raton Pass (elevation 7,800 feet or so) and while the Suburban strained near the top (3rd gear at 35 mph) she did make it.

As I recall the Suburban can pull 7,800 lbs or so (I'm loaded at about 6,500 lbs) with a tong weight of 1,200 lb (I'm at 1,000), admittedly I am near the limits of what the factory recommends.

With a GPS on board, with its built in altimeter, it appears I can stay in overdrive at 65 mph on a climb of up to about 1%. This seems to me to be a pretty good indication that the car and the trailer are pretty well matched. Pulling this trailer in overdrive at all makes me feel good.

I am not ready to go to a heaver car/truck with the hard ride of these pullers. A larger Suburban puts me in leaf springs in the rear and a more truck like ride. Maybe a 4.10 rear end change would be best for me, certainly it would give my 5.3 liter engine a little more breathing room, although I understand a 6 liter Suburban only produces a little more horsepower than a 5.3 (like 275 verses 285), correct?

So it's off to Alaska where I will learn how badly a choice I have made in matching the Suburban to the CCD 28. Am looking forward to the adventure.
PS how do you like your CCD 28? We really like ours.

Gerry



I hate to be the pessimistic one, but owning a 28" CCD and a 1500HD with a 6.0 V-8 and 3.73 rear end, I hate to tell you that I would not want to be towing with anything less. I have often told others on the forum that I wish I had a little more power or at least the 4.10 rear end.

I usually travel by myself or with one person and we are not carrying much of a load due to the fact that we are just gone for the weekend. If you are going to be doing some serious driving and driving through mountain ranges, etc. I would NOT want to have the type of set up which you described.

I hope that this helps.

Josh[/QUOTE]

[71_safari]

Do not run that rig in OD or you will ruin your transmission. Guaranteed. The 4L60E is not long-lasting to begin with. Instead, run in 3rd (Drive). You will spin higher rpms, probably about 2500-2600 at 60mph, but it will live a lot longer because increased coolant and fluid are pumped through at higher rpm. It will not harm your engine in any way or hurt your economy significantly. In addition, the torque converter and OD clutch packs on the 4L60 are not very strong, another reason to stay out of OD and try to ensure your torque converter stays locked up by not trying to run in too high a gear. A 3/4 ton uses the 4L80E tranny which is a lot stronger, and has an OD of .75 instead of .70, so there is less rpm reduction.

A good technique to learn is to not let the tranny unlock the torque converter for long periods of time, or lock/unlock frequently - this is very hard on it and overheat the trans fluid. You can tell when it unlocks by a rise of 300 rpm or so when in OD, 3rd or even 2nd, which indicates that the torque converter has unlocked and is slipping to help multiply torque, which unfortunately generates a lot of heat. Sometimes the TC lock/unlock feels like another gear change, although it is a smaller rpm difference than a full gear. When this happens it is better to force a full downshift, either through throttle pressure or manually pulling the lever back, and run in the lower gear at higher rpm with the TC locked up. Over short grades it isn't so critical.

The other weak spot is the small 10 bolt rear-end in the 1/2 ton. They are not designed for heavy towing and often fail by 80-100k even without towing. If you did not have the diff fluid changed before you left, get it done along the way and put synthetic in it. Keep your speed at 60-65 and it should be fine.

Fortunately, the run up to Alaska and back does not involve a lot of high mountain passes - mostly the highways run between the mountain ranges so if you get through the Rockies you will be Ok.

Have fun up there - it is gorgeous!

john

[nangoff]

Thank you for the comments. I did have the differential fluid repaced before I left Nashville but I'll have it changed again with synthetic before leaving Denver.

Referring to the above post by hohne, there is a "Tow/Haul" enable button at the end of the shifter on the steering column. I believe enabling this disallows the transmission from going into overdrive, amongst other things.

On your comments on locking/unlocking the torque converter, I don't know what effect the "Tow/Haul" has on this..does anyone know? Do you think enabling this function will get rid of this "problem"

Thanks,Gerry

[71_safari]

I believe that it will still use OD even in tow-haul mode, it just raises the shift points and may do a better job of locking up the TC. Try it and see what difference it makes. I still would not tow in OD with a trailer that heavy unless you are really able to discern when the TC unlocks and immediately take it out of OD and go into Drive.

[nangoff]

John,

I just checked my car's manual and I see that it standardly uses synthetic lube in its differential, as well as in some other places. What made you think the differential used standard lubricant?

I will go ahead and engage the "tow/haul" function when trailering the trailer, but I don't think I am able to discern when the trans falls in and out of lock up.

I will reread your post several times and look for a change of engine rpm, I guess I have a hard time with pouring on more power to get it to lock up. Seems when I do this it shifts to a lower gear and the engine spins at 4000 rpm or so.

Gerry

[jcanavera]

My advice would also say stay out of OD. That engine combo and rear end spells potential transmission problems unless you hold 3rd gear. I had a 5.7 liter 3.73 rear axle on my half ton van and I pulled in 3rd all the time.

My current 3/4 ton van sports a 6.0 liter 4.10 rear axle and 4L80E transmission which is up to using OD. Tow haul as noted by others will raise your shift points but will not lock out OD. With tow/haul engaged I don't hit OD in the current van on flat roads until slightly over 50 mph.

Even with Tow/Haul I can hear the torque converter unlock when I'm in OD and start pulling a decent sized hill. In my case it just unlocks earlier. I won't let it do this much though and I'll pull it down to 3rd to get the extra torque I need.

Jack

[71_safari]

Hi Gerry,

Yes, my point was to "pour on more power" and force the downshift, then hold it there by pulling the lever back, at which point you can ease up on the throttle to hold a reasonable speed and rpm. Jcanavera also explained it well I believe. Better to be in the lower gear with it all locked up than in a higher gear and slipping.

If you are turning 4000 rpm you have downshifted to 2nd gear out of 3rd, which is ok on steeper climbs - my F250 with 5.4L does the same, and so did my Chev K2500 with 5.7L (and it had 4.10's). If you want, slow it down a bit to about 3500-3600 if it sounds too noisy, that should still give you 50-55 mph, which is fine for climbing over mountain passes. The small block Chevy can run all day long at 4000rpm as long as it is cooling adequately - watch your gauges. The GM marine engines are tested at full throttle for 300 HOURS!

On the rear end I just meant to ensure it had synthetic in it, if they put it in when it was changed you will be fine - no need to change again.

john