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Old 07-27-2018, 07:51 AM   #41
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Yesterday I took a test drive in a RAM 2500. I have now taken a test drive in each of the big three's heavy duty trucks. While I try to be objective, and realizing I already have a RAM 1500, my observation is the RAM 2500 rode better and handled better than the Ford or GM. This could be because the RAM doesn't use leaf springs but has coil springs on the rear axle.

Not sure which way to go. The RAM 2500 is at the end of it's model cycle. The same with the GM. The Ford Superduties are at the beginning, being redesigned for the 2017 model year, and thus have more features. RAM and GM realizing they will have new models in 2020 have their trucks discounted more.

Still collecting data and really appreciate everyone's input! Thanks!
Both the GM and RAM are made in Mexico.
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Old 07-27-2018, 08:03 AM   #42
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Six in a row,

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The Cummins is also the lowest power of the three major diesels.
Yeah, I'm good with that,


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Old 07-27-2018, 05:54 PM   #43
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Yeah, I'm good with that,


Safe travels everyone,
The six is the only inherently balanced engine of them all too! Explains why they last like they do.
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Old 07-27-2018, 09:02 PM   #44
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No itís not. Itís the horsepower that pulls a given load up the hill the fastest. Torque is good when youíre at the bar comparing spreadsheets though.


Wow,we have some real armchair automotive geniuses in this forum. Lol

Which vehicle will accelerate faster? With a 6000lb trailer attached and without?

Given they are installed in exact configured vehicles.

A.400 horsepower with 430ft lbs of torque.

B. 400 horsepower with 925ft lbs of torque.

Sorry but itís a no brainer! You guys crack me up!
I love this forum...........Safe travels
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Old 07-28-2018, 06:47 AM   #45
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The torque allows for higher horsepower across the range of RPMs. The max will be 400 horsepower. The advantage of diesel with high torque is more horsepower at the lower rpms. Itís just that simple.
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Old 07-28-2018, 06:54 AM   #46
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The torque allows for higher horsepower across the range of RPMs. The max will be 400 horsepower. The advantage of diesel with high torque is more horsepower at the lower rpms. It’s just that simple.
How is that an advantage? What is the argument against using the higher rpms of a gasser to get the horsepower?
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Old 07-28-2018, 07:01 AM   #47
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How is that an advantage? What is the argument against using the higher rpms of a gasser to get the horsepower?
Run the numbers using the formula. Let’s say you max out 400 horsepower on a gas with lower torque at 5,000 rpms. At 2500 rpms that gas engine is maybe at
300 horsepower or even less. BUT at 2500 rpms that diesel is running at 400 horsepower. People normally pull at lower rpms. Thus for a diesel at the lower rpms more horsepower is applied to pulling. That’s the difference between a gas and a diesel. That’s why the higher torque will give more horsepower at the lower rpms. Again run the formula. Look it up.

Sure you can run at 400 horsepower if you are willing to run your gas engine at 5000 rpms all the time. But don’t expect your gas engine to last very long.
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Old 07-28-2018, 07:10 AM   #48
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And by the way. It’s more important to know what your horsepower is over the range of rpms. Many people forget that. The flatter the horsepower curve the better the towing capability. That’s why one should be careful to say that just because an engine produces more torque or horsepower it is a better towing engine. Look at the horsepower curve all along the range of rpms. That’s actually the most significant test of a towing vehicle.
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Old 07-28-2018, 07:12 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Moflash View Post
Wow,we have some real armchair automotive geniuses in this forum. Lol

Which vehicle will accelerate faster? With a 6000lb trailer attached and without?

Given they are installed in exact configured vehicles.

A.400 horsepower with 430ft lbs of torque.

B. 400 horsepower with 925ft lbs of torque.

Sorry but it’s a no brainer! You guys crack me up!
I love this forum...........Safe travels
Depends on gearing and the driver. Both have the same power.

The Powerstroke diesel will out accelerate the 6.2 because it has a lot more power. But the 6.2 will walk away from the Cummins.

Armchair expert? Yeah, 35 years in engineering. Built, restored and raced plenty. Owned gas and diesel, have one of each now. You?
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Old 07-28-2018, 10:54 AM   #50
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Run the numbers using the formula. Let’s say you max out 400 horsepower on a gas with lower torque at 5,000 rpms. At 2500 rpms that gas engine is maybe at
300 horsepower or even less. BUT at 2500 rpms that diesel is running at 400 horsepower. People normally pull at lower rpms. Thus for a diesel at the lower rpms more horsepower is applied to pulling. That’s the difference between a gas and a diesel. That’s why the higher torque will give more horsepower at the lower rpms. Again run the formula. Look it up.

Sure you can run at 400 horsepower if you are willing to run your gas engine at 5000 rpms all the time. But don’t expect your gas engine to last very long.
What is missing from this is consideration of the design operating range of each engine design. Modern pickup diesels would typically have a rated maximum rpm of 3200 or 3500 rpm. My gasoline 3.0 inline six has a redline of 7000 rpm and sounds a lot better approaching that speed than a diesel does at 3500 rpm.

Many are towing with diesels on the highway at 50% of rated engine speed. Same here. I can drop the transmission down on a steep hill and go to 4000 rpm. On the pull through the Coquihalla snow sheds I may be at 4500 rpm for a few minutes. Absolutely nothing to worry about.

Using 4000 rpm as an absolute doesn’t make sense when contrasting the two. Neither does it make sense to equate rpm to an engine wearing out, without consideration of stroke and rotating mass. What we used at work as a basis of comparison between engine designs was piston speed in m/s, not rpm.
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Old 07-28-2018, 11:21 AM   #51
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What is missing from this is consideration of the design operating range of each engine design. Modern pickup diesels would typically have a rated maximum rpm of 3200 or 3500 rpm. My gasoline 3.0 inline six has a redline of 7000 rpm and sounds a lot better approaching that speed than a diesel does at 3500 rpm.

Many are towing with diesels on the highway at 50% of rated engine speed. Same here. I can drop the transmission down on a steep hill and go to 4000 rpm. On the pull through the Coquihalla snow sheds I may be at 4500 rpm for a few minutes. Absolutely nothing to worry about.

Using 4000 rpm as an absolute doesn’t make sense when contrasting the two. Neither does it make sense to equate rpm to an engine wearing out, without consideration of stroke and rotating mass. What we used at work as a basis of comparison between engine designs was piston speed in m/s, not rpm.
Again. You seem to miss the point. First of all a diesel runs a lot faster than 3500rpms. And most of the time they are running much lower. Second look at the gauntlet test and compare the towing capacity for each of the engines. The diesels out perform the gas engines hands down. No comparison. There is no way that a gas with 400 hp and 450lbs of torque will out pull a diesel with the same horsepower and 900lbs of torque. I don’t care how much you love your gas engine. Not going to happen.

And there’s a reason long haulers use diesel vs gas. Gas engines simply do not last as long.

http://timstruckcapital.com/blog/You...wer-for-Towing

http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/exp...diesel-vs-gas/

By the way I have a 3.5 Ecoboost F150. So it’s not like I own a diesel and have to justify it. The last article points out good reasons to own a gas vs Diesel engine depending upon the type of driving done.
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Old 07-28-2018, 12:14 PM   #52
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... Sure you can run at 400 horsepower if you are willing to run your gas engine at 5000 rpms all the time. But donít expect your gas engine to last very long.
I guess I donít need that much horsepower as I tow my 25RB at 2,200 rpm on the flat or gently rolling and 3,500 rpm on most interstate grades, with occasionally needing to go to 4,800 rpm.
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Old 07-28-2018, 12:28 PM   #53
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This whole thread is testosterone fueled BS with no data. I love the reference to piston twin aircraft. Ego gets pilots killed, not equipment. Flew singles for years without issue.

400 hp will not outpull 400 hp no matter what. Show me the data (both must be 400 hp).
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Old 07-28-2018, 01:06 PM   #54
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Again. You seem to miss the point. First of all a diesel runs a lot faster than 3500rpms. And most of the time they are running much lower.
We are talking about pickups here, not Audi race cars. A Cummins 6.7 has the redline at 3200 rpm. A fuel cutout at 3500 rpm. And will grenade soon after 4000 rpm. The power peak is around 2900 rpm. That isn’t a criticism, just a fact relating to its stroke. Why would you be running a lot faster than 3500 rpm? Why in fact would you be running any higher than 2900 rpm given how the power drops off?

Save the Class 8 truck comparisons unless you plan on towing with a 13 or 15 litre engine. Which, by the way, don’t anywhere near the 3500 rpm that the lighter duty Cummins 6.7 does.

And you should reread the 16 year old article you linked on pickup truck engine technology. Seems it was written before diesel emissions controls, direct injection gasoline engines, gasoline turbocharging, and CGI gasoline engine blocks. It is amusing, at least.
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Old 07-28-2018, 02:53 PM   #55
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Not to go too far off topic but I was looking at some old sales brochures and had a good laugh.

My 1992 5.7L Suburban had 190 hp and 300 torque.
My 2002 5.3L Suburban has 285 hp and 325 torque.
My 2006 4.0L Tacoma has 236 hp and 266 torque.
My 2015 5.0L F150 has 385 hp and 387 torque.

I don't even want to know what my F100 had. I've towed with them all. Ignorance is bliss.
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Old 07-28-2018, 03:31 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moflash View Post
Wow,we have some real armchair automotive geniuses in this forum. Lol

Which vehicle will accelerate faster? With a 6000lb trailer attached and without?

Given they are installed in exact configured vehicles.

A.400 horsepower with 430ft lbs of torque.

B. 400 horsepower with 925ft lbs of torque.

Sorry but itís a no brainer! You guys crack me up!
I love this forum...........Safe travels

You just had to throw the hornet's nest into the room, didn't you?
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Old 07-28-2018, 07:00 PM   #57
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…..Seems it was written before diesel emissions controls, direct injection gasoline engines, gasoline turbocharging, and CGI gasoline engine blocks....
I'll stay out of the torque part of this discussion but you bring up an interesting point....turbocharging. I don't believe any of the available full size gasoline powered pickups with max towing capability (that's why I'm not counting the Ford EcoBoost) are turbocharged, but all the diesel versions are.

RPM and torque curves aside, one big advantage to turbocharged engines is their performance at altitude. A normally aspirated engine loses approximately 3% of it's power for every 1000 feet of elevation so if you're pulling a grade at 6000 feet you've lost almost 20% of your available power regardless of gearing or RPM. The loss for forced induction engines under similar conditions is negligible by comparison. It's one of several reasons why I chose the Power Stroke for my 2017 F250.
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Old 07-29-2018, 07:55 AM   #58
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This whole thread is testosterone fueled BS with no data. I love the reference to piston twin aircraft. Ego gets pilots killed, not equipment. Flew singles for years without issue.

400 hp will not outpull 400 hp no matter what. Show me the data (both must be 400 hp).
Hi

Unfortunately there's more than one way to come up with horsepower. Yes, that sounds silly, but there are multiple ways. If you use the "Sears Craftsman Electric motor" approach you get 2 HP out of a motor that anybody else would call a <1 HP .... No, it is not only used on electric motors. The Sears example is simply the worst I've seen ...

Bob
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Old 07-29-2018, 02:24 PM   #59
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Bu note the p/n-s for the springs and shocks are different for the F250 vs 350 vs the diesel and gas options. And the 450/550 are also different.
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Old 07-30-2018, 06:58 AM   #60
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This whole thread is testosterone fueled BS with no data. I love the reference to piston twin aircraft. Ego gets pilots killed, not equipment. Flew singles for years without issue.

400 hp will not outpull 400 hp no matter what. Show me the data (both must be 400 hp).
Who said single engines on aircraft are a problem? Certainly not I. Just read the thread and get the poison out of your mind.
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