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Old 02-01-2020, 01:09 PM   #41
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The last couple of posts from Rocinante and DavidsonOverlander bring up excellent points and in retrospect I hope my post above didn't come across as being overly negative toward EV's. My apologies if it did.

As much as I love ICE cars the handwriting is on the wall for the continued burning of fossil fuels. I won't preach to anyone about what they should do but by using an EV for most driving and installing solar, among other things, we are making our own commitment to change our energy usage where we can. Hopefully this offsets to some degree the things that aren't yet practical to change like, IMHO, towing our Airstream with an EV. Maybe someday.
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Old 02-01-2020, 03:35 PM   #42
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I’m currently using the concept of “fleet efficiency”.

A couple of Prius hybrids take all the short and medium distance driving that can be done reasonably. They average better than 60 MPG over that usage.

The Airstream gets hauled by a Tacoma pickup truck. When operated that way the truck gets 10-22 MPG average in long trips. It gets occasional “heavy hauling” and passenger runs, but most of the time it sits, burning no gasoline.

I figure that’s a reasonable approach to my current needs. Even if I upgrade to a Tundra, it’s going to be used in a similar manner.
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Old 02-01-2020, 05:24 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Countryboy59 View Post
Seeing as people on here are 60-80 years old I hope I don’t run into any of them in hour 10 or 11.


I’m in my mid-40s and don’t want to drive 10 hours. The amount of alertness you need when towing (more than driving a car alone) is hard to keep 10 hours in. Who need to cover 600 miles in one day while on vacation??
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Old 02-01-2020, 06:32 PM   #44
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On a side note, there are a lot of efforts to 1) recycle battery materials and 2) remove Cobalt. So yes, it is an issue but it is a well-known issue that people are working hard to solve. My guess is that these problems will not exist in five years.
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Old 02-01-2020, 06:58 PM   #45
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For me, when we drive 400 miles, I stop for gas once - 36 gallon tank and 11 mpg. How do you go so far on one tank of gas?
I have a 36 gallon tank and get about 12mpg. I drive 400 miles towing, then gas up in 10 to 15 minutes tops. What I am objecting to is being told that I should get an EV and recharge it for 35 to 40 minutes every 200 miles.

I admit that I get my dander up when someone tells me I should change my needs or habits because they think I should conform to their idea of what should be done. Someone actually posted, earlier in this thread, that if I can't take an extra day to drive across the country, I should take a train or plane.

A simple "sorry this won't work for you now, maybe one day in the future" would cause far less acrimony on my part than "take a train or plane."

ON EDIT:
Here is another post saying he doesn't need to cover distance, and implies that I shouldn't need to either. Folks need to recognize and accept that my needs are different than theirs and accept them, rather than say "who needs to do that?" The answer to the question posted below is "I do, sometimes."

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I’m in my mid-40s and don’t want to drive 10 hours. The amount of alertness you need when towing (more than driving a car alone) is hard to keep 10 hours in. Who need to cover 600 miles in one day while on vacation??
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Old 02-02-2020, 02:04 AM   #46
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Towing with an EV will not become practical until towing range is sufficient to get you to the next campground where you can charge overnight. If you're doing a long trip that would mean at least 400 miles for most people. Stopping during the day to charge is not viable at this point. Most charge stations are made for cars and they cannot accommodate a long rig. Then there's the problem of what happens when you get to the charge station and there are 3 people ahead of you waiting to charge.
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Old 02-02-2020, 11:27 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by out of sight View Post
Towing with an EV will not become practical until towing range is sufficient to get you to the next campground where you can charge overnight. If you're doing a long trip that would mean at least 400 miles for most people. Stopping during the day to charge is not viable at this point. Most charge stations are made for cars and they cannot accommodate a long rig. Then there's the problem of what happens when you get to the charge station and there are 3 people ahead of you waiting to charge.
I am pretty sure that when EV trucks start to come out and people start to tow with them, EV charging stations will accommodate that with appropriate spaces. The rest of the world does not just stop developing; ecosystems develop together.
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Old 02-02-2020, 12:51 PM   #48
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Oh, ye of too much gullibility ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocinante View Post
See, what I can't figure out is why we can't just have a nice thread about electric vehicles without folks jumping in to see who can make the most snide, unhelpful, judgemental, and borderline-rude remarks.

If you don't have an EV, aren't interested in an EV, and/or don't ever want to drive an EV, much less tow an Airstream with one, why not [etc]

Ro, you know I love you. But I think your comment is a little harsh. In the development ecosystem, there's a necessary function for a bright light and the cleansing elixer of truth.



Just as the believers have the right to discuss "facts" about EVs, those of us who are non-believers have the right to peel back the layers of salesmanship, overstatement and outright lies by the purveyors of today's latest fairy dust. (And I'm not refering here about my colleagues on the Forums: I mean the people trying to convince us that a vehicle limited to 250 miles is actually useful for most of us.)



I personally don't believe that the state of the art progresses through increasingly feverish marketing predictions. Science is based on facts, and industry is based on science, and marketing should be based on both, not on the marketing bloviation of people like Elon Musk. Ultimately, he--and, I'm sorry to say, his accolytes--are only going to hurt the development of EV because--as history proves--his specifications have too often proven to be unfounded speculations. When the puffery is proven false, it will hurt EV development, not help it.



That EVs will come is undoubted, but it won't happen in my life time. Not until the battery power/weight/recharge times are fixed. We're nowhere near that now. That Elon Musk will do it? I've got money that says he'll be drooling on his bib and playing with his flamethrowers in an abandoned tunnel under San Francisco when the revolution happens. Just look at the differences between the Elon Musks and the Nikkolai Teslas and Thomas Edisons. If you were to graph the volume of their marketing claims versus the success of their inventions ... well, it would be clear what each of them was/is good at.



And don't get me started (again) on the mirage of self-driving passenger cars ... or cryptocurrency ...



All that said, Rocinante, I will still read everything you write about trailering and will always find it amazingly smart and useful.
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Old 02-02-2020, 02:07 PM   #49
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Just as the believers have the right to discuss "facts" about EVs, those of us who are non-believers have the right to peel back the layers of salesmanship, overstatement and outright lies by the purveyors of today's latest fairy dust. (And I'm not refering here about my colleagues on the Forums: I mean the people trying to convince us that a vehicle limited to 250 miles is actually useful for most of us.)

I personally don't believe that the state of the art progresses through increasingly feverish marketing predictions. Science is based on facts, and industry is based on science, and marketing should be based on both, not on the marketing bloviation of people like Elon Musk. Ultimately, he--and, I'm sorry to say, his accolytes--are only going to hurt the development of EV because--as history proves--his specifications have too often proven to be unfounded speculations. When the puffery is proven false, it will hurt EV development, not help it.

That EVs will come is undoubted, but it won't happen in my life time. Not until the battery power/weight/recharge times are fixed. We're nowhere near that now. That Elon Musk will do it? I've got money that says he'll be drooling on his bib and playing with his flamethrowers in an abandoned tunnel under San Francisco when the revolution happens. Just look at the differences between the Elon Musks and the Nikkolai Teslas and Thomas Edisons. If you were to graph the volume of their marketing claims versus the success of their inventions ... well, it would be clear what each of them was/is good at.
While I appreciate your point of view I will say, with great respect, that if you're going to set yourself up as a standard bearer for facts and an enemy of overstatement you should use some care in what you say.

A study done at the Columbia University school of Engineering and Applied Science indicated that almost 98% of daily car trips are under 50 miles. Also, American families owned an average of 1.88 vehicles in 2017. I don't know of a single family in our neighborhood that doesn't own at least 2 vehicles. Point is, contrary to your assertion, most families could easily get by with at least one vehicle that was limited to 250 miles on a charge with single car owning families and those with special circumstances being possible exceptions.

I agree with some of your other points regarding the marketing hype around Tesla and Elon Musk. OTOH, at least he is out there advocating for a future based on the reality of what continuing to burn fossil fuels will mean for humanity, unlike those who believe that ever increasing levels of carbon dioxide and the greenhouse effect they are creating are fine because CO2 is a "plant food". If only we were plants and not homo sapiens....

Finally, since I don't plan on passing on tomorrow and I hope you won't either, I question your assertion that EV's won't be a major factor in your or my lifetimes. I have one sitting in my garage right now and it does almost everything I need a vehicle to do except reasonably tow a trailer for long distances, although it is rated to tow 4000 lbs for whatever that's worth. Will the public at large make the switch to buying mostly EV's any time soon? Maybe in our lifetimes; I plan to be around for a while yet. Regardless, EV's are already a perfectly practical choice for a growing number of vehicle owners, even if not for towing an Airstream just yet.
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Old 02-02-2020, 02:22 PM   #50
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Dont buy an EV because of climate change. That theory is on shaky ground and is ready to unravel. Also don't buy one because its cheaper to operate. You cannot save enough in energy cost to make up for the high purchase price. Instead buy it because of its mechanical simplicity and the fact that it has no check engine light.
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Old 02-02-2020, 02:29 PM   #51
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buy one because it meets your needs!

I think people are mistaking "you can make this work with a 250 mile range" for someone telling them "you HAVE to change to make this work". No one is saying you have to do this, they are pointing out the possibilities. If you do not want an EV car or truck, don't get one. But also I would recommend that you keep an open mind. If you are fixed in your ways and never want to do anything other than what you do right now, then you probably don't want to even open these EV threads.

In the meantime, I keep learning things!
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Old 02-03-2020, 08:16 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
I have a 36 gallon tank and get about 12mpg. I drive 400 miles towing, then gas up in 10 to 15 minutes tops. What I am objecting to is being told that I should get an EV and recharge it for 35 to 40 minutes every 200 miles.

I admit that I get my dander up when someone tells me I should change my needs or habits because they think I should conform to their idea of what should be done. Someone actually posted, earlier in this thread, that if I can't take an extra day to drive across the country, I should take a train or plane.

A simple "sorry this won't work for you now, maybe one day in the future" would cause far less acrimony on my part than "take a train or plane."

ON EDIT:
Here is another post saying he doesn't need to cover distance, and implies that I shouldn't need to either. Folks need to recognize and accept that my needs are different than theirs and accept them, rather than say "who needs to do that?" The answer to the question posted below is "I do, sometimes."


How about you take your own advice?? You started the blanket “it won’t work” statements. You are likely on the edge of extreme use case, with the largest of trailers pulling the longest distance at a stretch.

For more people, an EV truck will work and work well.

I am. It in any way ‘telling you what to do’ but I am saying what you do isn’t the most common (or likely safe) thing that most people will do.
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Old 02-03-2020, 08:23 AM   #53
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Dont buy an EV because of climate change. That theory is on shaky ground and is ready to unravel. Also don't buy one because its cheaper to operate. You cannot save enough in energy cost to make up for the high purchase price. Instead buy it because of its mechanical simplicity and the fact that it has no check engine light.


The top of the line Cybertruck is less than a 350/3500
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Old 02-03-2020, 10:01 AM   #54
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Old 02-03-2020, 10:10 AM   #55
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Cybertruck prices:

1 motor, 250 mile range, $39,900
2 motors, 300 mile range, $49,900
3 motors, 500 mile range, $69,900

I'm guessing the towing range is about 40% of the listed range.
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Old 02-03-2020, 10:17 AM   #56
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if you're going to set yourself up as a standard bearer for facts and an enemy of overstatement … almost 98% of daily car trips are under 50 miles. … own at least 2 vehicles. Point is, contrary to your assertion, most families could easily get by with at least one vehicle that was limited to 250 miles on a charge with single car owning families and those with special circumstances being possible exceptions.

Elon Musk ... is out there advocating for a future based on the reality of what continuing to burn fossil fuels will mean for humanity ...

Finally, since I don't plan on passing on tomorrow and I hope you won't either, I question your assertion that EV's won't be a major factor in your or my lifetimes.
Mikeinca: No disrespect taken. A debate is a debate and people can differ. Should differ! That's how we learn. So to respond to your points:

--Enemy of overstatement? Oh hell no. I'm a lawyer. I thrive on overstatement. What I'm an enemy of is unfounded speculation and misrepresentations hawked as "fact" or "promises." Of which the hucksters of the world--and a whole long history of "promoters" (as that term used to be understood)--are masters. A sucker born every minute, and so forth. Judge a "promoter" on what he does, not what he says, and you'll seldom be fooled.
--Trips under 50 miles, etc.: Even assuming that I accept the authority of your citation, I think it's beside the point for two reasons. First, we're talking about TOWING, not going to the grocery store. Second, if you could guarantee that your only use of the car is to go to the corner grocery store and back, then the limitations of an EV are acceptable. Except that you can't. My brother is a first-adopter who keeps buying hybrid cars. He lives relatively close to work and takes his hybrid. But if he has to run an unexpected errand on the way to or from, he immediately has to worry about his mileage, and that's within his relatively short daily trips. When he has to travel even to suburbs, he drives his SO's car, because that one can be filled up anywhere. What if you're at work and have to make a side trip to pick up your SO or a kid at school or that gallon of soy milk or go to the bank … all of a sudden the mileage limitations are daunting.
--Elon musk advocating : Yeah, OK. I'll grant you this. But is it truly a personal commitment, or is it strictly in the service of selling product? It seems to me that the answer is clear. Some of the people answering here are truly committed, and I commend them for living their committments. But IMNVHO, most of the "promoters" say or do anything to sell product. Think PT Barnum: it's all a show to sell tickets. Their inevitable failures are going to set the whole industry back as with ... (wait, I'm promised I'm not going to mention self-driving passenger cars.)
--Passing on tomorrow: There's plans and aspirations. And there's statistics. Just like there's marketing and there's facts. Often confused, but neither plans and aspirations (or all the deceptive marketing) trumps harshness of reality.
That said, I hope you live a long life and keep debating with people who disagree!!!
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Old 02-03-2020, 12:16 PM   #57
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This is my problem with the EV cheerleaders. The EV vehicles don't do what I need so the cheerleaders tell me to change my needs to fit their EV dream. Take a train or a plane? Really? I guess my Airstream will teleport itself to my destination for use.

You would find more acceptance from those of us who don't see a use, yet, for EV's if you would say "sorry it doesn't fit your needs, maybe one day" rather than "take a train or a plane."

My mileage definitely varies. When trying to get cross country, I typically do a 10 to 12 hour day.


I think the plain/train thing was taken far more seriously than it was offered.

I don't consider myself a "cheerleader" as much as I consider myself a realist. I get that the tech as it currently sits is not gonna work for everyone. If it did, there would be fewer ICE powered vehicles on the market. If I were retired, it would work for me as I would have no problem waiting a few more days to get cross country. The guy with a family with limited vacation couldn't swing a few extra days spent charging. I know I can't yet, but I know I will.

Back in mid 2000s when I got my ICE tow vehicle, fuel prices were about $1.40/gallon. About 3 years later, they exceeded $3.50/gallon and with vehicles getting more efficient and EVs, there is far less motor fuel taxes being generated. Add global uncertainty, and it's not unreasonable to see that fuel prices could exceed $5/gallon this decade.

I have owned an EV for 8 years. I have taken long distance trips. I understand both the concept and the reality (both positive and areas where it needs improvement) and I have done this with cars that have had far less range than the cars out today. Range is increasing at a dizzying pace. I can tell you that EVs will improve this decade in a massive way. If you can get on board fantastic, if not, that's fine too. Just know that $5+/ gallon gas/diesel is on it's way. To me, I've made my decision. My next TV will be an EV. I am due for a new TV in about 6-8 years, right around the time it's time to retire.

By then, my only concern of service when on the road will hopefully have been addressed. If not, I'll hold onto 'Ol Bessy, my faithful 3/4 ton truck a bit longer, but keep my daily driver (with the occasional long distance drives) as an EV. I am glad I pulled a 125amp sub-panel to the detached garage when I renovated the house, cause I think I'm gonna need it!
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Old 02-03-2020, 12:34 PM   #58
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Mikeinca: No disrespect taken. A debate is a debate and people can differ. Should differ! That's how we learn. So to respond to your points:

--Enemy of overstatement? Oh hell no. I'm a lawyer. I thrive on overstatement. What I'm an enemy of is unfounded speculation and misrepresentations hawked as "fact" or "promises." Of which the hucksters of the world--and a whole long history of "promoters" (as that term used to be understood)--are masters. A sucker born every minute, and so forth. Judge a "promoter" on what he does, not what he says, and you'll seldom be fooled.
--Trips under 50 miles, etc.: Even assuming that I accept the authority of your citation, I think it's beside the point for two reasons. First, we're talking about TOWING, not going to the grocery store. Second, if you could guarantee that your only use of the car is to go to the corner grocery store and back, then the limitations of an EV are acceptable. Except that you can't. My brother is a first-adopter who keeps buying hybrid cars. He lives relatively close to work and takes his hybrid. But if he has to run an unexpected errand on the way to or from, he immediately has to worry about his mileage, and that's within his relatively short daily trips. When he has to travel even to suburbs, he drives his SO's car, because that one can be filled up anywhere. What if you're at work and have to make a side trip to pick up your SO or a kid at school or that gallon of soy milk or go to the bank … all of a sudden the mileage limitations are daunting.
--Elon musk advocating : Yeah, OK. I'll grant you this. But is it truly a personal commitment, or is it strictly in the service of selling product? It seems to me that the answer is clear. Some of the people answering here are truly committed, and I commend them for living their committments. But IMNVHO, most of the "promoters" say or do anything to sell product. Think PT Barnum: it's all a show to sell tickets. Their inevitable failures are going to set the whole industry back as with ... (wait, I'm promised I'm not going to mention self-driving passenger cars.)
--Passing on tomorrow: There's plans and aspirations. And there's statistics. Just like there's marketing and there's facts. Often confused, but neither plans and aspirations (or all the deceptive marketing) trumps harshness of reality.
That said, I hope you live a long life and keep debating with people who disagree!!!
Belbein, thanks for your thoughtful reply. Just to be clear, it sounds as if we agree regarding the current suitability of EV's and towing. Also, I agree that an EV is probably not the right answer for most of the families that own only one vehicle. Our EV gets over 200 miles of range and we charge at home so range is not an issue in our daily driving but, even so, if it was the only vehicle we owned it would be a problem for a limited, but not insignificant, number of situations including towing.

Just as an aside, since you didn't want to mention self-driving passenger cars I will. I can't think of any other option on a vehicle that I would want less.

Cheers!
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Old 02-03-2020, 12:58 PM   #59
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We also own an EV. It is now 100% our daily driver, and now we even use it for overnight trips that require at least one fast-charge along the way. We've found that we enjoy the 30-40 minute stops to charge, and usually align it with lunch or a coffee break. Sometimes we even shop at a nearby store. As of now, the only time our current tow vehicle (RAM 1500) leaves the garage is when we need to tow our Airstream or move something that won't fit in our EV. We use it so rarely that I keep it hooked up to a battery tender and have added stabilizer to the gas tank.

BTW, our EV has been far cheaper to operate than our truck could ever be, so claims that one cannot save enough in energy costs to enjoy an EV are wrong on multiple fronts: first, we didn't pay a particular premium, because we bought a Chevy Bolt instead of a Tesla, and we bought it "used" - e.g. we are the second owners of a pristine 2019 Bolt that's still under warranty, which means someone else "enjoyed" the initial depreciation bite while we are loving our little car. It's more responsive, holds in the turns like it's glued to the road, and accelerates far more aggressively than any car it's size has a right to do. We thoroughly enjoy driving it and also thumbing our noses at gas station price signs as we go by.

In addition, pretty much 100% of the science out there says we're suffering climate change due to increased greenhouse gases generated by human activity, so anything else is just an attempt to generate FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt). That said, multiple different activities contribute to greenhouse gases such as CO2 and CH4, and autos are just one of the many sources. We choose to help out by driving an EV and putting solar panels on our home and our RV. We recognize that much of the electricity in our part of the country is generated via fossil fuels (natural gas and coal), which is why we took the extra step of adding enough solar to our house to more than offset our consumption, including electricity to charge the EV while it's parked in our garage.
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Old 02-03-2020, 02:16 PM   #60
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Thanks for the sideways compliment...I think. My comment wasn't harsh. It was on target. That said, you know I wasn't arguing that folks should not "peel back the layers." and I urge you not to put words into my keyboard. Initially, an electric tow vehicle won't necessarily be about serving "most of us." It will be about proving the concept. It's possible, within certain limitations, and as early adopters, some folks will be fine with those initial limitations. As I've said before, an EV that can tow a small trailer RV for 250 miles between charges would be fine for us, because we have no interest in towing farther than that in a day anyway.

I'm not a Musk fanboy, but despite this I have to give him credit: if it weren't for him and Tesla Motors, we would not be as far along with EVs as we are today. We just wouldn't. It's thanks to him and Tesla that we were able to buy a far less expensive and perfectly acceptable Chevy Bolt with a 250 mile range for daily driving.

Regarding whether EV's will come in your lifetime? They're already here, so don't be in a hurry to leave, OK? The only question now is how soon we'll be able to tow a decent-sized trailer 250 miles, then 350, then 450, etc., between charges.

Lastly, nobody in this thread said anything about cryptocurrency or self-driving (self-towing?) cars as far as I know. So why throw that into the thread? That comment felt like more of a deflect / distract element than useful addition to the discussion.

Bottom line, our EV is already insanely useful to us and, even better, it's a joy to drive. We can't wait until someone shows up with an EV that can tow a decently-sized RV trailer. If they can do it well with a 23FB, we'd probably be willing to make the switch for both TV and trailer.

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Ro, you know I love you. But I think your comment is a little harsh. In the development ecosystem, there's a necessary function for a bright light and the cleansing elixer of truth. (etc.)
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