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Old 11-25-2019, 09:33 PM   #161
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I would love for my next TV to be a smart, economical EV, but I'm not particularly keen on being the owner of a first generation or especially of the first model year of a new Tesla vehicle.

If past is prologue, we will see Tesla move the delivery date back at least three times, then, under pressure, deliver a rushed-to-market vehicle suffering from numerous production issues on the line, failures from components the engineers completely failed to imagine being used in the way end-users use them, and, sadly, some idiots dying or killing innocents, most likely involving the so-called auto pilot mode.

The first generation units, over time, will develop curious problems related to the very innovative (steel, glass, charging system, or ???) because no one knew how to life-test these new technologies.

Eventually, it will all get fixed. I have been on the bleeding edge of technology before. It's a bit more fun when you're young, perhaps. I am looking forward to my old curmudgeon phase.
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Old 11-26-2019, 05:41 AM   #162
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There is verbiage in the deposit sign up indicating prices will be subject to change.

I’m still baffled as to why a pointless feature (“armored” windows) was showcased in the demo, even if it had not failed.
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Old 11-26-2019, 06:45 AM   #163
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Fortunately for Musk, there's a sucker born every minute...which includes apparently some folks on the board.



It seems to be Musk can stand in front of a crowd during a blizzard and tell people its a beautiful sunny warm day. At first the crowd would tell him he's lost his mind, but as he smiles and continues to tell you it is indeed sunny...after awhile some people begin to believe him. Just like some folks are now discussing how this horrendous design is "growing on them" and "they like it." Face it, its an ugly truck like a line drawing from a 4 year old.



I read one poster talk about how Elon wants to break into the truck market "because its the biggest market he can make a significant impact on emissions with." Utter retardation if anyone actually believes Musk wants to, or indeed actually is attempting to save the planet. No, Musk, is after the segment that will bring him, and his company, the most money. In fact, this is the motivation for almost every company and politician that promotes so-called green energy. "Green" energy is a potentially massive market only in its infancy at this time. Investors, company boards, and politicians (through true quid pro quos) stand to make massive money in this market. Now ideally, they need foolish ideologue consumers who actually think they are doing something positive for the planet by buying a "zero emission" vehicle. The education system has been used for decades now to serve the purpose of slowly brainwashing our youth into thinking there actually is a danger to our planet, and further, that they can actually do something about it.



However, the alternative, although a little less pleasant, is still fully viable. Use political action to "ban" ICE vehicles, forcing the hand of consumers. Politicians don't like doing that, because it creates a lot of backlash from freedom loving Americans. However, they are paid handsomely for it, by "donations" to their campaigns and charities. The best strategy is gentle coercion...you know, raising government taxes on fuel from maybe $0.40 per gallon where we are now to somewhere around $4 a gallon...while at the same time granting massive rebates and tax incentives on EVs. They don't take away your freedom to buy an ICE vehicle, but they make it nearly financially impossible.



Meanwhile, EVs don't solve the emissions "crisis" in any way. They take random, dispersed pollution from ICE vehicles across the country and centralize it at power plants. They also open up new, dirty industries such as mining for lithium and large battery recycling.



When I ask people what is compelling about an EV over an ICE, they tell me about the "instant torque" and how fast a Model S is compared to some traditional ICE hot rods. I then inform them that a Model S can cost $100k and that they can't afford one.



In fact, one of the most affordable EVs on the market right now is the Chevy Bolt. Its a small hatchback, and it has 200HP and 266lb-ft. Those are very good numbers but the base price is $37k. Now consider a VW GTI...which has essentially the same horsepower and torque, but starts at $10k less. And there is not one person that would say the Bolt is a better vehicle in any respect. The Bolt, which is the "everyman's vehicle," takes 9.5 hours to fully recharge on a 240V home charger system. It's fastest DC charging option takes 30 minutes to get up to 90 miles of range. Fully charged, with perfect, optimal conditions, the Bolt can go 266 miles. A GTI on the other hand, using it's EPA combined rating, will routinely go 100 miles more, and takes about 3 minutes to fully refuel for another 350 miles.



So let's think about that again...The EV has less range, takes much, much longer to "refuel," costs $10k more, and has a less nice interior and driving dynamics when compared to a top ICE competitor. Why would you buy it?



EVs are the answer to a question nobody asked. Our current ICE vehicles are excellent and fulfill all of our needs and then some. They are extremely clean. Despite dire warnings of being extinct in 12 years, frigid weather and winter have come early once again this year. Snow is already on the ground. Please don't be fooled by a group of politicians portending to truly be interested in saving a planet that doesn't need saving. Don't buy the hype. Life goes on.
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Old 11-26-2019, 06:56 AM   #164
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why armored glass?

There is speculation that since the Tesla uses a monocoque design instead of body-on-frame, the forces and stresses are handled by the body itself and conventional glass would shatter from the constant flex and twists transferred to the glass.
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Old 11-26-2019, 07:00 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by LY007 View Post
There is verbiage in the deposit sign up indicating prices will be subject to change.

I’m still baffled as to why a pointless feature (“armored” windows) was showcased in the demo, even if it had not failed.
For someone who has worked in and around construction companies over the last 25 years, most construction vehicles (pickups) have broken or cracked windows. It happens all the time. I've already broken my windshield on the job. Stone chip from a passing dump truck.
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Old 11-26-2019, 07:36 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by troverman View Post
Fortunately for Musk, there's a sucker born every minute...which includes apparently some folks on the board.



It seems to be Musk can stand in front of a crowd during a blizzard and tell people its a beautiful sunny warm day. At first the crowd would tell him he's lost his mind, but as he smiles and continues to tell you it is indeed sunny...after awhile some people begin to believe him. Just like some folks are now discussing how this horrendous design is "growing on them" and "they like it." Face it, its an ugly truck like a line drawing from a 4 year old.



I read one poster talk about how Elon wants to break into the truck market "because its the biggest market he can make a significant impact on emissions with." Utter retardation if anyone actually believes Musk wants to, or indeed actually is attempting to save the planet. No, Musk, is after the segment that will bring him, and his company, the most money. In fact, this is the motivation for almost every company and politician that promotes so-called green energy. "Green" energy is a potentially massive market only in its infancy at this time. Investors, company boards, and politicians (through true quid pro quos) stand to make massive money in this market. Now ideally, they need foolish ideologue consumers who actually think they are doing something positive for the planet by buying a "zero emission" vehicle. The education system has been used for decades now to serve the purpose of slowly brainwashing our youth into thinking there actually is a danger to our planet, and further, that they can actually do something about it.



However, the alternative, although a little less pleasant, is still fully viable. Use political action to "ban" ICE vehicles, forcing the hand of consumers. Politicians don't like doing that, because it creates a lot of backlash from freedom loving Americans. However, they are paid handsomely for it, by "donations" to their campaigns and charities. The best strategy is gentle coercion...you know, raising government taxes on fuel from maybe $0.40 per gallon where we are now to somewhere around $4 a gallon...while at the same time granting massive rebates and tax incentives on EVs. They don't take away your freedom to buy an ICE vehicle, but they make it nearly financially impossible.



Meanwhile, EVs don't solve the emissions "crisis" in any way. They take random, dispersed pollution from ICE vehicles across the country and centralize it at power plants. They also open up new, dirty industries such as mining for lithium and large battery recycling.



When I ask people what is compelling about an EV over an ICE, they tell me about the "instant torque" and how fast a Model S is compared to some traditional ICE hot rods. I then inform them that a Model S can cost $100k and that they can't afford one.



In fact, one of the most affordable EVs on the market right now is the Chevy Bolt. Its a small hatchback, and it has 200HP and 266lb-ft. Those are very good numbers but the base price is $37k. Now consider a VW GTI...which has essentially the same horsepower and torque, but starts at $10k less. And there is not one person that would say the Bolt is a better vehicle in any respect. The Bolt, which is the "everyman's vehicle," takes 9.5 hours to fully recharge on a 240V home charger system. It's fastest DC charging option takes 30 minutes to get up to 90 miles of range. Fully charged, with perfect, optimal conditions, the Bolt can go 266 miles. A GTI on the other hand, using it's EPA combined rating, will routinely go 100 miles more, and takes about 3 minutes to fully refuel for another 350 miles.



So let's think about that again...The EV has less range, takes much, much longer to "refuel," costs $10k more, and has a less nice interior and driving dynamics when compared to a top ICE competitor. Why would you buy it?



EVs are the answer to a question nobody asked. Our current ICE vehicles are excellent and fulfill all of our needs and then some. They are extremely clean. Despite dire warnings of being extinct in 12 years, frigid weather and winter have come early once again this year. Snow is already on the ground. Please don't be fooled by a group of politicians portending to truly be interested in saving a planet that doesn't need saving. Don't buy the hype. Life goes on.
Wow, that’s Quite a diatribe.

I had an EV because I hated buying gas. Problem was solved. It was hilarious how I was branded for driving it, even though I’m a tofu-hating, meat eating, gun-totin’ Capitalist if their ever was one. Always had a big diesel truck in the garage next to the EV.

Never thought I was saving the environment even though a “central” power plant is thousands of times more efficient than individual engines, or everyone would power their house with a generator. Doesn’t matter to me anyway. If the climate is changing (maybe it is) we’re not gonna change that. When everyone give up their AC and their 75” TVs I’ll give up my diesel. So there.
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Old 11-26-2019, 07:49 AM   #167
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A fool's errand

to argue with a demagogue, but I'm not busy at the moment so...

Quote:
Originally Posted by troverman View Post
Meanwhile, EVs don't solve the emissions "crisis" in any way. They take random, dispersed pollution from ICE vehicles across the country and centralize it at power plants. They also open up new, dirty industries such as mining for lithium and large battery recycling.
So there are these people with no financial incentive to lie that actually have been measuring the temperature for many years and recording it, all around the world. It's getting warmer almost every year. There are graphs. I would try to explain greenhouse gasses, but some folks seem immune to science and reason, so what would be the point? Not all power plants emit greenhouse gasses. Coal plants are rapidly being converted to natural gas, which emit less because it's cheaper. Solar, nuclear and wind are zero emission. Mining is a dirty industry used across industries, but yes, battery recycling is possible and happily helps mitigate that.

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When I ask people what is compelling about an EV over an ICE, they tell me about the "instant torque" and how fast a Model S is compared to some traditional ICE hot rods. I then inform them that a Model S can cost $100k and that they can't afford one.
Did you also inform them of their inability to afford a Lamborghini, Bugatti, Ferrari, Koenigsegg, Hennessey, McLaren, Zenvo, Pagani, or Aston Martin and chide them for aspiring to join the ranks of so many foolish rich people who can't understand simple math?

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A GTI on the other hand, using it's EPA combined rating, will routinely go 100 miles more, and takes about 3 minutes to fully refuel for another 350 miles.
I get the point about long road trips, on the other hand, while I could install a fuel pump at home, it's more convenient to plug it in overnight. And for those who install solar systems, the ROI can be less than five years and actually generate revenue by selling back to grid.

I sympathize with your cynicism regarding politicians but it has never been the cynics that do the arduous work to make change. Feel free to argue about cattle farts and sun spots and Chinese plots and conspiracy crack-pots, but some freedom loving Americans are freely choosing to anaylize the data, understand the science, recognize the propaganda, and conscientiously alter their behavior and choices to leave a better world for their kids and grandkids.
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Old 11-26-2019, 08:08 AM   #168
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Despite the issue at the roll out. 200,000 have put a $100 deposit for the new truck
most selected the 2 motor option followed by 3 motor and 1 motor as the least selected
https://driving.ca/tesla/auto-news/n...sits-says-musk
Yes, but!
Musk is only requiring a $100 deposit, so the 200K orders (146K in two days) could end up being 50K real production orders.
Quote:
Tesla critics and journalists on social media were quick to point out the potential for deception in Musk’s numbers, along with the fact that he has faced sanctions from the SEC for his use of Twitter to move the stock in his favor:
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Old 11-26-2019, 08:22 AM   #169
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Not impressed with Deniers comments... Not going to argue them. I put in 11.5 KW DC PV Solar (in two increments, initially, 7.8 and last year another 3.7 KW) on my roof because it made economical sense and it seems to be the prudent thing to do in terms of ensuring my grandkids have a least a fighting chance. Didn't have to give up AC... and I live in Florida My set power production for the year is likely to net me a check for a few hundred dollars. My solar array was subsidized to the tune of $2 per watt (you do the math) by a program by my utility using funds originally slated for a nuclear plant that was cancelled.

I have looked at EVs for a couple of years now and just opted to upgrade my vehicle situation from a traditional pickup rated at a 3 on the EPA greenhouse emissions scale to a 4 (a mild hybrid base 2020 GLS 450). It will actually replace two cars, the truck and a Mercedes E250 Bluetec sedan that was a phenomenal performer on the Greenhouse gas scale and got 45 MPG. Bottom line was I wanted something safe, state of the art in terms of safety features, and capable of fulfilling all of my needs. And yes, my needs, while include towing my living room, bedroom, kitchen and bathroom behind me a few thousand miles a year, for recreation. My overall usage however is significantly less than average, with maybe 7-8 thousand miles total.

As far as greenhouse gas goes, I figure I am already reducing my carbon footprint significantly by having my personal solar array, even with the utility actively converting to solar themselves. I could buy into their solar array solution but it would cost me more. After 6 years, I have already produced 75 MegaWatts, and thereby paying off the original investment.

Looking forward to the day when it makes sense to have a small electric car for around town errands, and yes, have looked at the Leaf, the Bolt etc... doesn't have to be an SUV. Just not there yet.

But for now, happy to have two cars in the driveway, instead of three... and the E250 Bluetec? It's on its way on an enclosed carrier to California where my daughter can take advantage of the efficiency... and oh by the way, she has a 2004 Diesel Excursion and is off camping with my other Airstream this week. She will likely retire my 14 year old E320 CDI, or maybe not! Great cars. As has been noted before, California did a 180 on Diesels when they passed their greenhouse gas emissions law.

We'll see how the mild hybrid I now have works out, but happy with it so far. Got 26.1 MPG yesterday on a Costco run (80 miles RT) in mixed driving.
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Old 11-26-2019, 08:34 AM   #170
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to argue with a demagogue, but I'm not busy at the moment so...



So there are these people with no financial incentive to lie that actually have been measuring the temperature for many years and recording it, all around the world.
And, they have adjusted prior decades' temperatures, always downward, for whatever reason they gave. Why not just use the temperatures that were recorded at the time rather than "adjust" them downward?

The temperature rising story no longer holds, at least not nearly to the degree that is needed.
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Old 11-26-2019, 09:03 AM   #171
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Really dumb question here so go easy - I’m not an engineer....

Is there a way for the energy from the rotation of trailer tires and any trailer braking to be fed through the trailer to the EV truck to charge it or extend its range? I realize there’s some loss in there somewhere - but even if you could capture 50% of it - would it be valuable?

As for campgrounds - gotta imagine at some point every site will be metered. Stay for a weekend and use your AC - pay as you go. Use 2 ACs in your massive Moho - pay as you go. Charge your EV - pay as you go. And campground owners won’t be taking $5 off their fees when they do this - it will be additive.

Glass half empty I guess....
The only capturable energy is on braking (when NOT decelerating, trying to harvest energy from the trailer wheels just requires more energy to be put into the system by the tow vehicle.) Generally the tow vehicle would be able to capture more energy from its own braking than it can store rapidly in the batteries so it wouldn't make economic sense to put regenerative braking on the trailer axles unless you were charging a sizable battery pack in the trailer. Someday in the future when batteries are orders of magnitude better than they are now and regen equipment is as cheap as drum brakes, it might actually happen. Back in the dark ages, original Model Ts didn't have what we'd consider normal brakes because it was cheaper to put a single one at the transmission, for example, which seems nuts now.
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Old 11-26-2019, 09:04 AM   #172
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And, they have adjusted prior decades' temperatures, always downward, for whatever reason they gave. Why not just use the temperatures that were recorded at the time rather than "adjust" them downward?

The temperature rising story no longer holds, at least not nearly to the degree that is needed.


Have a Toyota Tacoma to haul the Airstream. It gets 22 mpg at best around town. The Prius is used for errands and local stuff. 55-65 mpg. It gets most of the driving.

There are some that say it’s an ugly looking vehicle, but I don’t care what it looks like. 179,000 miles on it and we plan to keep it until the wheels fall off.

I have mixed opinions on the politics. If the silliness in California gets too bad, we plan to leave and go somewhere more rational.
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Old 11-26-2019, 09:08 AM   #173
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With the charging tangent, wouldn’t it make the most sense to plug the truck into the 50 amp pedestal and plug the trailer into the truck? This lets you power the trailer as needed and let the excess go to the batteries. Much of the time nearly 100% of available power would go to the batteries. This also can offset the need for serious investment in lithium for the trailer itself.

The range comments make no sense to me. How are folks assuming a 50-80% hit to range when towing?? Do your gas or Diesel engines take a similar hit to mileage when towing? Mine takes a 25% hit, maybe 30% if I’m mostly climbing in elevation. At the top configuration and 30% hit, the Cybertruck would still boast a 350 mile range, plenty for me in a day.

I’m betting (by placing an order for the top model) that he will meet or exceed the specs stated this past week. It won’t be on time, but it will happen. It will prove to be the best tow vehicle on the road, and definitely the most economical when all costs are considered compared to the F-250/2500 trucks (e.g F-250 Platinum).
I get about 21 mpg running in the mid 70s on the highway in my truck. Towing, I get about 11 mpg running in the upper 60s (67 or so is my norm). I suspect if I set the cruise at 67 without the Airstream I'd get 22 or better, so 50% is about right in my case. It wasn't quite that much difference with my previous truck, but close... 17 highway vs 9.5-10 towing slower than I was going to get the 17.
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Old 11-26-2019, 10:37 AM   #174
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The only capturable energy is on braking (when NOT decelerating, trying to harvest energy from the trailer wheels just requires more energy to be put into the system by the tow vehicle.) Generally the tow vehicle would be able to capture more energy from its own braking than it can store rapidly in the batteries so it wouldn't make economic sense to put regenerative braking on the trailer axles unless you were charging a sizable battery pack in the trailer. Someday in the future when batteries are orders of magnitude better than they are now and regen equipment is as cheap as drum brakes, it might actually happen. Back in the dark ages, original Model Ts didn't have what we'd consider normal brakes because it was cheaper to put a single one at the transmission, for example, which seems nuts now.
Tesla recently bought a battery company, Maxwell. They are involved in a capacitor battery that can be charged in seconds, not hours. They are not usable on their own, but Tesla is working on a battery pack incorporating these batteries.

The braking on a tesla uses the motor as a generator and captures a small amount of energy back as you stop. It works and it saves your brakes. The power generated can significantly add to your range depending on the type of driving, the road and the number of stops. It can be as high as 23%.

As I understand it, the "new" battery Tesla is working on will incorporate the Maxwell capacitor battery. It can reclaim 70-80% of the regenerative braking energy and feed it to the main battery as a charger would. It can also be charged fully at a supercharger and feed that energy to the battery shortening your time at the charger.

My model 3 Tesla has a range of 325 miles now. It keeps going up with software changes. That is plenty of range for 100% of how I use it. We could be seeing ranges of 500 miles and beyond very soon. A 5 second hookup to a campground 50 amp, could result in 30-40 miles of range instantly. The EV industry is changing very quickly.
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Old 11-26-2019, 01:46 PM   #175
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Change starts with some different things that many people, especially those who oppose change, won’t like. It also means the first new things will be very expensive. The electric trucks I have read about are more like vanity trucks than anything else. They are very expensive and the Tesla may be groundbreaking, but it really looks ugly to me. The usual pickup truck design is time tested. It has a cabin for people and a cargo area. Truck based SUV’s and some vans are the same, but the cargo area is large, but enclosed. A wedge design may be efficient for air flow and cheaper to build, but if you go too far from what people are used to seeing, they won’t sell. Remember the Pontiac Aztec? It was ugly, but now years later some SUV’s look pretty much the same. We got used to it.

When people don’t want to believe something, they won’t. The statistics show the planet is warming faster than predicted even a few years ago, but the deniers just claim the stats are wrong or were changed. They apparently believe thousands of scientists are secretly making it all up. Have you ever seen a group of more than a few people keeping such a juicy secret? Humans are terrible at keeping secrets. I don’t have to have a thermometer to know the mornings here in Colorado are warmer than they were a few decades ago. There is less snow and rain and we jump quickly back and forth from severe storms to severe drought faster than in recorded history. It rains i. the winter in Colorado now—that used to be extraordinary. Now it is the new norm. It seems to be a political necessoty to claim the climate is not changing. Decades from now, people will look back at some of us and have nothing good to say. They will wonder how so many peop,e could ignore facts just like we wonder how the middle ages could bring so much ignorance, religious wars and superstition. Even with modern comforts, we haven’t gotten smarter.

I am glad companies are experimenting with electric vehicles. Some will lose bundles of money, some will succeed. Prices will come down and distance and towing abilities will increase. The first autos were hard to drive, broke down frequently, had short range, it rained on you, so should we have given up and stayed with horses?

There is a climate crisis now. If we as a planet continue in our ways, Many major cities will be lost, all those pretty beachfront properties will be far under water and no stilts will help, south Florida will disappear, whole countries will be underwater and tens of millions of refugees will be starving and fighting for resources. Wars are inevitable in such a situation. The longer we wait, the more disruptive and expensive change will be. Some really stupid things will be tried when countries get desperate. For example, something close to nuclear winter to cool the planet down. So what about fallout—it is am emergency. Maybe a country will try to set off some massive volcanoes to bring temps down—but all that will be temporary. I could live into the 2050’s if I make it past 110. I won’t be complaining it is too cold and give me my shawl. I’m not sure I want to see what 2050 is like though.

Yes, they may charge for electricity at camp sites. Or require electric vehicles to park at a recharge area and bill them for it. Some CG’s in the Northwest will penalize you if you use your A/C. It isn’t always cool though and if you have allergies, filtering the air through an A/C may be necessary. There are already some MH’s with 75 watt needs. CG’s will adapt as they always have—they will complain and try various things. Underground cable is quite expensive and digging up the campground to put in new circuits will cost a lot. That’s keeping up with the times. Since fewer and fewer have cable TV because many RV’s have satellite systems and have disconnected their phone lines because just about everyone has a cellphone, CG’s have saved money on that, so it may balance out.

The good old days are not coming back. They never were here. Things have changed and the imaginary world that didn’t exist when you were young, never did. Coal never will be clean and candles were not all that good at lighting up a room.
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Old 11-26-2019, 04:29 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Gene View Post
Change starts with some different things that many people, especially those who oppose change, won’t like. It also means the first new things will be very expensive. The electric trucks I have read about are more like vanity trucks than anything else. They are very expensive and the Tesla may be groundbreaking, but it really looks ugly to me. The usual pickup truck design is time tested. It has a cabin for people and a cargo area. Truck based SUV’s and some vans are the same, but the cargo area is large, but enclosed. A wedge design may be efficient for air flow and cheaper to build, but if you go too far from what people are used to seeing, they won’t sell. Remember the Pontiac Aztec? It was ugly, but now years later some SUV’s look pretty much the same. We got used to it.

When people don’t want to believe something, they won’t. The statistics show the planet is warming faster than predicted even a few years ago, but the deniers just claim the stats are wrong or were changed. They apparently believe thousands of scientists are secretly making it all up. Have you ever seen a group of more than a few people keeping such a juicy secret? Humans are terrible at keeping secrets. I don’t have to have a thermometer to know the mornings here in Colorado are warmer than they were a few decades ago. There is less snow and rain and we jump quickly back and forth from severe storms to severe drought faster than in recorded history. It rains i. the winter in Colorado now—that used to be extraordinary. Now it is the new norm. It seems to be a political necessoty to claim the climate is not changing. Decades from now, people will look back at some of us and have nothing good to say. They will wonder how so many peop,e could ignore facts just like we wonder how the middle ages could bring so much ignorance, religious wars and superstition. Even with modern comforts, we haven’t gotten smarter.

I am glad companies are experimenting with electric vehicles. Some will lose bundles of money, some will succeed. Prices will come down and distance and towing abilities will increase. The first autos were hard to drive, broke down frequently, had short range, it rained on you, so should we have given up and stayed with horses?

There is a climate crisis now. If we as a planet continue in our ways, Many major cities will be lost, all those pretty beachfront properties will be far under water and no stilts will help, south Florida will disappear, whole countries will be underwater and tens of millions of refugees will be starving and fighting for resources. Wars are inevitable in such a situation. The longer we wait, the more disruptive and expensive change will be. Some really stupid things will be tried when countries get desperate. For example, something close to nuclear winter to cool the planet down. So what about fallout—it is am emergency. Maybe a country will try to set off some massive volcanoes to bring temps down—but all that will be temporary. I could live into the 2050’s if I make it past 110. I won’t be complaining it is too cold and give me my shawl. I’m not sure I want to see what 2050 is like though.

Yes, they may charge for electricity at camp sites. Or require electric vehicles to park at a recharge area and bill them for it. Some CG’s in the Northwest will penalize you if you use your A/C. It isn’t always cool though and if you have allergies, filtering the air through an A/C may be necessary. There are already some MH’s with 75 watt needs. CG’s will adapt as they always have—they will complain and try various things. Underground cable is quite expensive and digging up the campground to put in new circuits will cost a lot. That’s keeping up with the times. Since fewer and fewer have cable TV because many RV’s have satellite systems and have disconnected their phone lines because just about everyone has a cellphone, CG’s have saved money on that, so it may balance out.

The good old days are not coming back. They never were here. Things have changed and the imaginary world that didn’t exist when you were young, never did. Coal never will be clean and candles were not all that good at lighting up a room.
Thanks Gene! Do we anticipate all your post is really saying is your not interested in the new technology? Remember, you sold your AS and got an SOB. (newer technology??).. Got to have some sort of attraction to different technology, from what I read...albeit, that fits most of us I guess...
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Old 11-26-2019, 04:51 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
And, they have adjusted prior decades' temperatures, always downward, for whatever reason they gave. Why not just use the temperatures that were recorded at the time rather than "adjust" them downward?

The temperature rising story no longer holds, at least not nearly to the degree that is needed.
Just because you do not understand the science does not mean it is incorrect. They have good reasons for doing so but explaining it in a way you would understand takes a fair amount of math and science.

For every crime one of the key aspects is "motive". No one has explained to me why there would be a global conspiracy of scientists who do not know each other and have every reason to prove others wrong. So until someone can bring a motive I find it hard to believe a conspiracy on that scale.
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Old 11-26-2019, 05:56 PM   #178
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For every crime one of the key aspects is "motive". No one has explained to me why there would be a global conspiracy of scientists who do not know each other and have every reason to prove others wrong. So until someone can bring a motive I find it hard to believe a conspiracy on that scale.
$$$
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Old 11-26-2019, 06:19 PM   #179
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$$$
From where? Who is paying big bucks to all these people? I know some climate scientists and they aren't getting the big bucks. In fact they get the same salary no matter what their data show.
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Old 11-26-2019, 06:25 PM   #180
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From where? Who is paying big bucks to all these people? I know some climate scientists and they aren't getting the big bucks. In fact they get the same salary no matter what their data show.
If they don't fall in line, they may get 0 $$$...
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