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Old 12-09-2018, 05:48 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Zybane View Post
Well that is obvious. The point is the inefficiency of extracting the oil out of the ground, transporting it, refining it, transporting the gasoline to gas stations, then having an internal combustion engine turn over 2/3rds of the energy into wasted heat is EXTREMELY inefficient.

Literally orders of magnitude more inefficient than hydro or solar charging an electric vehicle. Granted, most power still comes from coal but that can and will change, and coal to electric vehicle route is still more efficient than going the internal combustion engine route.

And that isn't even touching upon EV's hardly ever require brake pad and disc replacements due to the energy recoupment when decelerating. Yet again less energy wasted into heat into the atmosphere over an ICE vehicle.

I am thinking nuclear power....


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Old 12-09-2018, 07:53 PM   #82
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I am thinking nuclear power....


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To generate electricity to charge batteries, or are you going to install a reactor in your vehicle?
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Old 12-10-2018, 01:01 AM   #83
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FYI there is an earlier/longer/more general "When to go electric for a tow vehicle" thread, where many of these issues have already been hashed out in considerable detail:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...le-169483.html

FWIW
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Old 12-10-2018, 06:21 AM   #84
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...Literally orders of magnitude more inefficient than hydro or solar charging an electric vehicle. Granted, most power still comes from coal but that can and will change, and coal to electric vehicle route is still more efficient than going the internal combustion engine route.

And that isn't even touching upon EV's hardly ever require brake pad and disc replacements due to the energy recoupment when decelerating. Yet again less energy wasted into heat into the atmosphere over an ICE vehicle.

Coal plants get a bad rap. They have reliably been producing energy for the US for over 100 years. The largest solar plant in the world produces about 1/3 of the annual energy the largest coal plant in the US produces annually. Furthermore, solar plant output is greatly dependent upon location. Solar Star, the largest US plant, is located in the sunny desert. Obviously, locating a solar plant in areas that see more rain and snow and cloudy days greatly reduces the Cf of the plant. Significant solar plants require an extremely large footprint as well. Utilizing desert is one thing, but in other areas trees are cleared, fields are covered, and mountainsides are marred by the sheer size of solar panel installs. And finally, a coal plant has roughly twice the lifespan of a solar plant, and unlike solar...can be renovated and refitted at the end of its life.



I realize coal emissions are bad. But considerable efforts have been made to reduce or remove heavy metal and sulfur emissions from these facilities. And some plants are now utilizing processes that can re-capture the CO2 and prevent it from entering the atmosphere...making the plant a zero-contributor greenhouse gases. Other technologies like SCR (similar to what is used on modern diesel engines) can reduce NOx emissions to zero or near zero. A side benefit of a coal plant is that the excess steam can be used as heat (see NYC).



I think solar plants make great sense in the desert, and wind, geothermal, and hydro power sources also make sense where they are economically and aesthetically viable. But people need to remember these sources are simply not viable everywhere for a variety of reasons.



Nuclear plants are the most efficient and have the highest capacity factors. But I'd rather have CO2 belching from a coal stack than a type of waste which takes decades to become *less* harmful. Not to mention the risk factor associated with a major plant accident.



My point is that coal serves a purpose, and can actually be made into a zero-contributor to greenhouse gases. These plants and all the required infrastructure already exist. So why wouldn't we simply work to retrofit these things into zero emission plants? That would be my first choice.



Apologies for the digression away from the original topic, which is EV's.
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Old 12-10-2018, 06:25 AM   #85
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I just went through the last four pages of this thread. Interesting reading. I was definitely in the skeptic group a year ago, but am warming to the idea of an EV. I didn’t see this asked, so I’ll bring it up. It looks like all the solar vehicles at this point are really luxurious. The Lexus, Cadillac, etc. type vehicle is all I see. Will there be a EV for someone that just wants a base model? I have the impression that these are for folks living pretty comfortably, or are really environmentally conscious. (Top 5 percenters). What will everyone else drive?
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Old 12-10-2018, 11:17 AM   #86
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Coal plants get a bad rap. They have reliably been producing energy for the US for over 100 years. The largest solar plant in the world produces about 1/3 of the annual energy the largest coal plant in the US produces annually. Furthermore, solar plant output is greatly dependent upon location. Solar Star, the largest US plant, is located in the sunny desert. Obviously, locating a solar plant in areas that see more rain and snow and cloudy days greatly reduces the Cf of the plant. Significant solar plants require an extremely large footprint as well. Utilizing desert is one thing, but in other areas trees are cleared, fields are covered, and mountainsides are marred by the sheer size of solar panel installs. And finally, a coal plant has roughly twice the lifespan of a solar plant, and unlike solar...can be renovated and refitted at the end of its life.



I realize coal emissions are bad. But considerable efforts have been made to reduce or remove heavy metal and sulfur emissions from these facilities. And some plants are now utilizing processes that can re-capture the CO2 and prevent it from entering the atmosphere...making the plant a zero-contributor greenhouse gases. Other technologies like SCR (similar to what is used on modern diesel engines) can reduce NOx emissions to zero or near zero. A side benefit of a coal plant is that the excess steam can be used as heat (see NYC).



I think solar plants make great sense in the desert, and wind, geothermal, and hydro power sources also make sense where they are economically and aesthetically viable. But people need to remember these sources are simply not viable everywhere for a variety of reasons.



Nuclear plants are the most efficient and have the highest capacity factors. But I'd rather have CO2 belching from a coal stack than a type of waste which takes decades to become *less* harmful. Not to mention the risk factor associated with a major plant accident.



My point is that coal serves a purpose, and can actually be made into a zero-contributor to greenhouse gases. These plants and all the required infrastructure already exist. So why wouldn't we simply work to retrofit these things into zero emission plants? That would be my first choice.



Apologies for the digression away from the original topic, which is EV's.
What is a shame; have you seen these articles talking about China going into countries and building these full bown old-school heavily polluting coal power plants?

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/06/chin...-globally.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-45640706

China basically just wants to dirty up the rest of the world and off-load its excess coal. Crazy stuff.
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Old 12-10-2018, 11:40 AM   #87
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So if someone creates legislation requiring a tow rating for other than commercial carriers, or any of those other restrictions you mention, it will be accommodated.
Sorry but there is already such legislation in most places and the police can issue tickets for anyone towing more than their vehicle is rated to tow by the OEM.

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Even a Yaris can tow 1000 lbs, so designing for that sort of tow load is the least of the issues to resolve.
Actually I don't see any Yaris that is rated to tow in the US and even with the much less restrictive European towing standards, the Yaris is only rated for 881 pounds. How much liability are you willing to assume because this gives your insurance company the option to deny your claim outright which puts you in the hook for everything. For small stuff you might get away with it but you start talking big $$$ and the insurance company will start looking for any excuse. But if you willing to assume self coverage then have at it.
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Old 12-10-2018, 02:20 PM   #88
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Sorry but there is already such legislation in most places and the police can issue tickets for anyone towing more than their vehicle is rated to tow by the OEM.

Actually I don't see any Yaris that is rated to tow in the US and even with the much less restrictive European towing standards, the Yaris is only rated for 881 pounds. How much liability are you willing to assume because this gives your insurance company the option to deny your claim outright which puts you in the hook for everything. For small stuff you might get away with it but you start talking big $$$ and the insurance company will start looking for any excuse. But if you willing to assume self coverage then have at it.
We are getting away from the Tesla pickup topic, but just to clarify:

The tow rating rules are generally part of the federal commercial carrier regulations. Check actual state and federal laws for passenger vehicles, and provide a source for us please

The Yaris wasn't designed in the US. It was designed to tow just over 2000 lbs, depending on model. Some models are rated to tow 881 kg (not lbs) if you use the Toyota hitch, more if you use an aftermarket hitch rated to 2000 lbs. No need to go to Europe, just come to Canada, the land of the free when it comes to towing, apparently. Note that we have the same (harmonized) road safety laws.

No need to worry about insurance coverage, they can't deny a liability claim, as that would defeat the purpose of mandatory liability coverage. What they can do is decline to reinsure you in future after a big claim and crash, or raise the price sufficiently that you don't want to reinsure. If that happens, just tell them that they can't do so, that you were operating within manufacturer's recommendations when you crashed, and let us know how that goes for you.
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Old 12-10-2018, 02:32 PM   #89
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And don't forget the electricity you put in that battery likely comes from a coal fired power plant.
"Likely" may be an overstatement. Only about 30% of US electricity is from coal (in 2017 at least). If you include natural gas it's a bit over 60%, but natural gas burns MUCH cleaner than coal... there's still the CO2 question, but without fun stuff like acid rain and carcinogens.

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3
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Old 12-11-2018, 06:41 PM   #90
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"Likely" may be an overstatement. Only about 30% of US electricity is from coal (in 2017 at least). If you include natural gas it's a bit over 60%, but natural gas burns MUCH cleaner than coal... there's still the CO2 question, but without fun stuff like acid rain and carcinogens.

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3
Where the power comes from doesnít matter to most people.
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Old 12-13-2018, 04:56 AM   #91
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"Likely" may be an overstatement. Only about 30% of US electricity is from coal (in 2017 at least). If you include natural gas it's a bit over 60%, but natural gas burns MUCH cleaner than coal... there's still the CO2 question, but without fun stuff like acid rain and carcinogens.

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3
No, all the new coal mines are only mining for clean coal

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Old 12-13-2018, 09:06 AM   #92
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Power itís all about money! Coal, nuclear, solar. The technology is there to clean and eliminate emissions. The costs are prohibitive.

I do wastewater treatment. Some of the largest and most expensive treatments systems are the treatment plants for coal plant emissions. We can design to zero discharge, but the cost would go through the roof.

Money runs the world, not environmental or resource conservation and responsibility.

At some point we will work ourselves into a situation where we have no choice to use solar or put excessive controls of coal discharges, until that time, we live as we do and deal with it.
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Old 12-15-2018, 11:45 AM   #93
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Does the latest TESLA TOASTER enable occupants to exit the burning vehicle? And will it exist without government subsidy?

Elon is a crook. Just more twisted than others of his ilk.

.
I'm sure ICE vehicles have never combusted in a crash either right? Virtually all of the Tesla fires (which are actually very few) have been caused by someone driving at extremely high speeds impacting an immovable object. As a Model X owner I can tell you from my own experience driving it and other ICE vehicles I feel far safer in it than any other vehicle I've ever driven.

I'm also still trying to discover how Elon is some crook. Hmm.. Entrepreneur starts company to challenge traditional automakers. Builds his cars and SUV's in the US and employs 10s of 1000s of US workers. Tesla is actually the most "American" of all the car companies with close to 100% of design, parts and manufacturing done in the US. Tesla got one government loan and repaid it with interest. Every other US automaker went bankrupt and required a bailout from US taxpayers except Ford. So... Who is the crook?
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Old 11-22-2019, 02:56 AM   #94
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Here you go:

https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/pickup-truck
https://www.caranddriver.com/photos/...-info-gallery/
[See Gallery image 8/8]

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Old 11-22-2019, 07:10 AM   #95
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poor thing was beat with an ugly stick. Tesla should shoot that one into space also
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Old 11-22-2019, 07:15 AM   #96
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Canít wait to see the real world numbers. I think Iíll keep the F250 around for a while...

I felt bad for Elon when the window demonstration went south quick!
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Old 11-22-2019, 08:57 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by DKB_SATX View Post
"Likely" may be an overstatement. Only about 30% of US electricity is from coal (in 2017 at least). If you include natural gas it's a bit over 60%, but natural gas burns MUCH cleaner than coal... there's still the CO2 question, but without fun stuff like acid rain and carcinogens.

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

Agreed, and what's more is an electric vehicle is the only vehicle that will actually get cleaner over time. As the grid improves, emissions will also diminish. I don't think to zero in my lifetime, but if you compare the grid from the 70s, 80s and 90s, I would say the overall grid in the US is vastly in a better place today than it has been in the past and 20 years from now, I suspect we will say the same thing.

I truly feel that we are in the very early stages of something that will be very commonplace in about 10-15 years (maybe less). It will NOT be uncommon for a pure electric to haul 25k lbs 300+ miles. The charging infrastructure is growing at a dizzying pace. The electric motor technology for heavy hauling already exists (electromotive locomotive). Making those motors more efficient in addition to battery technology improvements, one can clearly see where this is going. By no means do I believe ICE will totally vanish, but 10-15 years (or less), I strongly believe that there very well could be a significant number of all electric cars and tow vehicles out there.

It is also entirely possible that some degree of autopilot may also be commonplace. I had questioned that opinion early on, up until I saw a Ford truck back a boat successfully down a boat ramp to launch it.

I guess what I'm saying is change is the only constant. My children's children will most likely be as bewildered with a ICE in the future as my children are when they see a touch tone house phone, or a computer from early as 10 years ago that has no touch input.
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Old 11-22-2019, 10:10 AM   #98
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poor thing was beat with an ugly stick. Tesla should shoot that one into space also
I totally agree. It's uglier than a monkey's butt.
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Old 11-22-2019, 10:25 AM   #99
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I hear the Flux-Capacitor will be an option next year.
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Old 11-22-2019, 10:34 AM   #100
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I think it looks super cool, and the specs are better than current trucks. Iíll buy mine in 2022, with delivery in 2023.
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