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Old 12-04-2018, 08:42 AM   #61
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And don't forget the electricity you put in that battery likely comes from a coal fired power plant.
Doesn’t matter to me where it comes from, and the plant is already running so it doesn’t add anything.
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Old 12-04-2018, 11:07 AM   #62
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And don't forget the electricity you put in that battery likely comes from a coal fired power plant.
Coal fired plants. To borrow a phrase used by Douglas Adams, first against the wall when the revolution comes.
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Old 12-04-2018, 12:30 PM   #63
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And don't forget the electricity you put in that battery likely comes from a coal fired power plant.
That is definitely a problem. Coal generating stations are still being built in many parts of the world, but it depends on where you live. As JCL noted above 95% of the electricity in British Columbia is from renewable sources. In Ontario we have moved away from coal and get most of our electricity from hydro and nuclear with a little wind, solar and natural gas also in the mix. Across Canada coal accounts for only about 10% of our electricity, with nuclear and hydro being 75%.

Electric cars are often charged at night when there is a lower demand for electricity. In our area we pay about 50% less at night per kwh than during the day.

The problem of over-reliance on coal seems to be more political than technological.
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Old 12-04-2018, 01:33 PM   #64
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This has been a fun discussion to watch.

I would like to see the electrical load and HP requirement for flat towing at, say, 60 mph. If you could size the battery pack to handle 300+ miles of that, I wonder with it would take.

Then add the HP for an auxiliary engine (perhaps a gas turbine, so it will run quietly and efficiently on practically anything), and allow for handling hill-climbing needs.

In my sci-fi mind, you could also use the gas turbine to charge batteries when sitting idle.

Sort of a Volt concept in a truck, but (ahem), amped-up...
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Old 12-04-2018, 02:04 PM   #65
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With an EV, there isn't a requirement for an additional power plant when climbing hills. There is lots of hp. Better to use the electric motors, and thus benefit from regenerative braking on the descent.

As long as we are on the sci-fi track:

What may be required is additional battery capacity, due to higher draws and reduced range. if that storage capacity is only required when towing, it makes sense to me that the trailer have an auxiliary propulsion battery, mounted under the floor, to supplement the TV batteries. Umbilical connection. Sort of a Tesla PowerWall concept, mounted flat. But not made by Tesla, for those that are not fans of Musk

The same battery pack would provide for solar power backup when camped. And it would be continually recharged by solar panels covering the full roof, when driving.

It is past the time that trailer design got into this century.

Additional note: The auxiliary battery pack would not just be for towing a travel trailer. A standard EV may suffice for 90% of one's trips in terms of range. But if I want to visit family 1000 km away, I would like to rent a small trailer, with a battery pack, for several days. Sort of a U-Haul Trip Pack, but with high quality. Low profile, aerodynamic, fibreglass pod on wheels with batteries. Hook it up, plug it in to the TV, and have double or triple the range. Return it after the trip. Just thinking of this causes me to imagine the sort of business opportunities that are on the horizon but haven't been introduced yet, and the jobs that come with them. As opposed to jobs doing things like mining carbon, for example.
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Old 12-04-2018, 02:59 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steamguy View Post
. . .
Sort of a Volt concept in a truck, but (ahem), amped-up...


A shocking comment!

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Old 12-05-2018, 03:37 AM   #67
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This past August we got our Tesla Model 3, which is replacing our VW TDI which VW is buying back for a healthy sum. Over Thanksgiving week we drove 2000 miles round trip to visit my dad. On the way back we did the return trip in one day (three drivers w/ very different sleep schedules).



These are very practical road vehicles - tons of instant torque, quiet and comfortable, and an easy 200+ miles between recharging stops, which were typically 30-40 minutes. We drove between 65 and 75 mph, over mountains, etc. These vehicles require only basic maintenance - tires, windshield wipers, cabin air filters, etc. The only brake service needed is periodic fluid replacement like any other car; the brake pads will likely last the life of the vehicle since for most stops letting off the accelerator and using the automatic regenerative braking is more than enough 'whoa'.



I think an electric truck with similar attributes would be quite popular, and I look forward to the continuing technological progress that has made these vehicles possible.


- Bart
EV's win almost every single metric that vehicles can be judged by. They absolutely destroy internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles.

By 2030, there won't even be a new internal combustion engine consumer road vehicle sold is the US. Some people will be "forced" to buy a superior vehicle if they want new.

ICE is an extremely inefficient method of propulsion as the vast majority of the energy is wasted into heat.
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Old 12-05-2018, 04:04 AM   #68
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EV's win almost every single metric that vehicles can be judged by. They absolutely destroy internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles.

By 2030, there won't even be a new internal combustion engine consumer road vehicle sold is the US. Some people will be "forced" to buy a superior vehicle if they want new.

ICE is an extremely inefficient method of propulsion as the vast majority of the energy is wasted into heat.
Inefficiencies and energy loss either happen at the point of power generation and transmission (power plant) or point of use (vehicle engine).
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Old 12-05-2018, 05:27 AM   #69
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ICE is an extremely inefficient method of propulsion as the vast majority of the energy is wasted into heat.
I live in New England, that heat is NOT wasted.. and I would not want to have to use a battery to run an electric heater to warm the car up
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Old 12-05-2018, 06:08 AM   #70
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I live in New England, that heat is NOT wasted.. and I would not want to have to use a battery to run an electric heater to warm the car up
That's why something similar to the Voltec drivetrain in the Chevy Volt would be excellent in a pickup. No "range anxiety", plus plenty of engine heat when needed.
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Old 12-05-2018, 12:03 PM   #71
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I live in New England, that heat is NOT wasted.. and I would not want to have to use a battery to run an electric heater to warm the car up
Just to throw some ballpark numbers out there...

An internal combustion engine is usually around 25% efficient, but some are better (eg Atkinson cycle). Let's call it 1/3 efficient.

Let's say you use 100 hp to propel your vehicle down the road when towing. Might be less than that.

That means that you are throwing off 200 hp that isn't being used for propulsion. 200 hp is about 150,000 watts.

Just how much heat do you need to keep the cabin warm? 1% of that?

If so, 99% is wasted.

These numbers can be argued up and down, but at least there is a starting point for discussion.

Don't plan on having an electric heater in your future EV, that would be wasteful. Better a heat pump, more efficient.
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Old 12-05-2018, 12:05 PM   #72
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Inefficiencies and energy loss either happen at the point of power generation and transmission (power plant) or point of use (vehicle engine).
Absolutely, but it starts before power generation. Let's start from extracting the materials used for power generation (coal, oil, etc) and then processing/refining those materials, then transporting them.

I'll take a power transmission line over distributing fuel in pipelines and delivery tankers.

Well to wheel.
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Old 12-05-2018, 12:06 PM   #73
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That's why something similar to the Voltec drivetrain in the Chevy Volt would be excellent in a pickup. No "range anxiety", plus plenty of engine heat when needed.
Hybrids make some sense as an interim, bridging technology until the infrastructure is built up. But longer term, they are simply a band aid.
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Old 12-05-2018, 05:42 PM   #74
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Hybrids make some sense as an interim, bridging technology until the infrastructure is built up. But longer term, they are simply a band aid.
Doesn't matter what sort of infrastructure is put in place until you can quickly recharge <5-10 minutes per electrics aren't going to cut it. No one wants to stand around waiting 3 hours or more so they can get back on the road. Nevermind that the surge demand for charging those cars is going to mean for the electrical grid. Suddenly you're going to need a whole bunch of new wiring to handle the increased demand in residential areas. 100 amp for 3 hours. That's a lot of draw. Now maybe with intelligent chargers controlled by central controllers that might help, but that adds yet more complexity and cost to the system. Sorry while EV maybe the future...battery powered EV is not, at least not until they change their preconceptions about the battery pack being built into the car and part of the car. 1 Car, battery not included. The battery you get as part of the service contract and is hot swapped out for a fully charged one at the 'station'.
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Old 12-05-2018, 05:54 PM   #75
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Additional note: The auxiliary battery pack would not just be for towing a travel trailer. A standard EV may suffice for 90% of one's trips in terms of range. But if I want to visit family 1000 km away, I would like to rent a small trailer, with a battery pack, for several days. Sort of a U-Haul Trip Pack, but with high quality. Low profile, aerodynamic, fibreglass pod on wheels with batteries. Hook it up, plug it in to the TV, and have double or triple the range. Return it after the trip.
This actually makes the most sense. Indeed such 'range trailers' should be available for rent at any super charging station, and returned there as well. That way they are fully charged and ready to be recharged at the other end. It would tend to eliminate the issues with long range drives, including addressing the need for a quick 'recharge' by including an option to allow the vehicle battery to recharge from the trailer battery, This would not only allow you to continue your trip, but recharge you vehicle battery as you do.

Only problem is that the vehicle would then need to be rated for that much tow capacity beyond the vehicle loading, and you would need the extra wiring and electronics to handle and monitor this additional battery pack. Would add cost, but would overcome the bulk of the objections to the current EV issues of range and recharging on trips.
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Old 12-05-2018, 06:23 PM   #76
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This actually makes the most sense. Indeed such 'range trailers' should be available for rent at any super charging station, and returned there as well. That way they are fully charged and ready to be recharged at the other end. It would tend to eliminate the issues with long range drives, including addressing the need for a quick 'recharge' by including an option to allow the vehicle battery to recharge from the trailer battery, This would not only allow you to continue your trip, but recharge you vehicle battery as you do.

Only problem is that the vehicle would then need to be rated for that much tow capacity beyond the vehicle loading, and you would need the extra wiring and electronics to handle and monitor this additional battery pack. Would add cost, but would overcome the bulk of the objections to the current EV issues of range and recharging on trips.
I had assumed that they would be picked up fully charged.

The vehicle tow capacity wouldn't be an issue. The trailers would weigh in the neighbourhood of 1000 lbs or less. Light enough to not need brakes.

The charging point for the vehicle would be dual purpose (charging and umbilical). It would be located near the rear license plate.

I used to drive Explorers and Expeditions. When I got tired of driving them, often with a solo occupant, but still thought I might need to move 8 people every now and then, I figured out how much I could save by driving a smaller and more economical car (also much more fun to drive), and how much I would have to offset that with occasional rentals of an Expedition or similar. It has worked out well. The trailer idea is just an extension of that. Occasionally I might want to go to the next province (state). But most trips are so short that it wouldn't make sense to carry around more battery all the time.

All of this is likely to be supplanted by new higher efficiency battery designs, but it is fun to imagine solutions.
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Old 12-08-2018, 10:42 PM   #77
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Even if only 1000 pounds the vehicle still needs to be tow rated in order to legally tow in some jurisdictions. Nevermind the liability you are opening yourself up to since most automotive insurance excludes coverage for aaccidents that occur do to operating the vehicle outside of the OEM specifications, nevermind the law. Which can include towing if the insurance company has reason to believe your towing was a factor in the accident. Further counts against the GVW allowance and thus will negatively impact how many passengers and/or luggage you can carry. Nevermind the possible impacts of such a load on unibody construction, bumpers, and crash safety. So if this is going to be a factory supported and equiped option the they will need to rate the vehicle for it, or they could be faced with all sorts of liability.

As such the vehicle would need to not only handle its current carrying capacity but add enough towing capacity to still handle the trailer as well as its normal load. Otherwise, the question of who or what you're going to leave home becomes an issue.

Oh and FYI I know of one car by one manufacturer that going from specifically stating the car is not to be used for towing to a 500-2,000 pound towing capacity all depending on your specific trim level. Thus hooking up a 1,000 pound trailer can void your drivetrain warranty along with other equipment including all of it.

If you're going to tow then your vehicle needs to be rated for towing and for as much as you will be towing. Otherwise....the risk can be all on you.
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Old 12-08-2018, 11:57 PM   #78
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No problem with any of that in this scenario.

The charge point to connect the umbilical needs to be designed to accept the umbilical (location, retention while driving, software to recognize the additional batteries) so the vehicle would clearly be spec’d for the minimal towing load of a lightweight trailer.

So if someone creates legislation requiring a tow rating for other than commercial carriers, or any of those other restrictions you mention, it will be accommodated.

Even a Yaris can tow 1000 lbs, so designing for that sort of tow load is the least of the issues to resolve.
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Old 12-09-2018, 08:44 AM   #79
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Hybrids make some sense as an interim, bridging technology until the infrastructure is built up. But longer term, they are simply a band aid.



How true and well said.


Safe travels and best regards
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Old 12-09-2018, 01:14 PM   #80
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Inefficiencies and energy loss either happen at the point of power generation and transmission (power plant) or point of use (vehicle engine).
Well that is obvious. The point is the inefficiency of extracting the oil out of the ground, transporting it, refining it, transporting the gasoline to gas stations, then having an internal combustion engine turn over 2/3rds of the energy into wasted heat is EXTREMELY inefficient.

Literally orders of magnitude more inefficient than hydro or solar charging an electric vehicle. Granted, most power still comes from coal but that can and will change, and coal to electric vehicle route is still more efficient than going the internal combustion engine route.

And that isn't even touching upon EV's hardly ever require brake pad and disc replacements due to the energy recoupment when decelerating. Yet again less energy wasted into heat into the atmosphere over an ICE vehicle.
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