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Old 12-16-2019, 11:42 PM   #461
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Hi, I remember Tesla anouncing the Model 3 car; It was supposed to be affordable starting at $30,000.00. Later it was said that the basic model 3 car would cost $35,000.00 each. For this thousands of deposits were put on the idea that people could finally buy an affordable electric Tesla car. [beating the record sales of the 1965 Ford Mustang] According to Motor Trend, after more than two years of production, Tesla has finally started to produce the basic model 3 car. But now it costs over $41,000.00 for one. Fraud or a lie to the public to get deposits on a $30,000.00 or $35,000.00 model 3 car that these people will never get. Instead people could buy a model 3 car for up to around $60,000.00.

If that isn't bad enough, early models of this car had horrible fitting body parts with some of them having double weather strips on the doors to fill excessive gaps of poor fitting body parts.

Will this magic truck be any different or will you be putting deposits on more lies from Tesla??????
Love the fake news. There was never an expectation set forth for a 30k M3. The 35k variant can be had all day long, even today with a simple phone call or walk into a Tesla store. It's off-menu, but very available if you'd like.

I get the sense that you're a traditionalist and don't understand the value proposition here. Nor the real cost of ownership advantages.

As an avid car enthusiast with top of the line Lexus and Porsche vehicles in my garage, I have no problem with the quality of my Tesla vehicles. Their current stuff is truly the future. Available today. If you're actually interested that is.
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Old 12-16-2019, 11:50 PM   #462
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Love the fake news. There was never an expectation set forth for a 30k M3. The 35k variant can be had all day long, even today with a simple phone call or walk into a Tesla store. It's off-menu, but very available if you'd like.

I get the sense that you're a traditionalist and don't understand the value proposition here. Nor the real cost of ownership advantages.

As an avid car enthusiast with top of the line Lexus and Porsche vehicles in my garage, I have no problem with the quality of my Tesla vehicles. Their current stuff is truly the future. Available today. If you're actually interested that is.

Hi, we were actually interested in the model S, which I think is the best car built by Tesla. Almost bought one. But as we aged, a low slung car is no longer for us. We waited for an SUV type Tesla, but that car was ruined with the stupid door arrangement. There still might be an electric car in our future. Not liking the direction Tesla is going, might consider the Ford Mustang. Or not. I'm pretty sure that an electric tow vehicle will never happen for us.
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Old 12-17-2019, 06:18 AM   #463
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Will the Cybertruck comply with SAE J 2807 towing standards? I would think that being as heavy and powerful as it is there would not be a problem with most of the J 2807 tests, but I wonder how the motors and gearboxes will hold up in the 11 mile uphill test run. Will they overheat when pulling a 14,000 trailer?

I think you may be overthinking it.

Look at it this way, diesel/electric locomotives have been around for multiple decades. The electrically driven axles have motors that have been able to take far more abuse than heavy duty or light truck will see. Yes the motors may be more massive, but my point is that the technology to build an electric motor that can take the abuse of towing/hauling, maintain temperature has already been achieved and has a long history of service to expand onto a smaller motor.

IIRC, there are electric semis now on the road in some capacity. There too if you were going to run into heating or towing problems, you'd have seen it either there or in the diesel/electric locomotives.
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Old 12-17-2019, 07:42 AM   #464
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Not overthinking it. I smoked a transmission once so I'm wondering if Tesla is thinking about that 11 mile hill. Maybe theyll need to install oil coolers.

At some point I'd like to see EV's with gearless drives.
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Old 12-17-2019, 07:51 AM   #465
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Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS View Post
Hi, I remember Tesla anouncing the Model 3 car; It was supposed to be affordable starting at $30,000.00. Later it was said that the basic model 3 car would cost $35,000.00 each. For this thousands of deposits were put on the idea that people could finally buy an affordable electric Tesla car. [beating the record sales of the 1965 Ford Mustang] According to Motor Trend, after more than two years of production, Tesla has finally started to produce the basic model 3 car. But now it costs over $41,000.00 for one. Fraud or a lie to the public to get deposits on a $30,000.00 or $35,000.00 model 3 car that these people will never get. Instead people could buy a model 3 car for up to around $60,000.00.

If that isn't bad enough, early models of this car had horrible fitting body parts with some of them having double weather strips on the doors to fill excessive gaps of poor fitting body parts.

Will this magic truck be any different or will you be putting deposits on more lies from Tesla??????


Nice narrative, but inaccurate. $35k was the initial target price at Mode 3 launch. $35k is available today to order, but you have to talk to someone in store or call, canít order it online. Elon misses dates regularly, but doesnít miss what he says they are going to do.
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Old 12-17-2019, 08:52 AM   #466
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Perhaps one shouldn't squawk "fake news!" so loudly when Tesla currently advertises cars with somewhat deceptive "prices" on their website, rolling in federal incentives and their assumptions on your gas savings to give you a "cost" guesstimate instead of a price. Yes, there's a button on the page to restore that to actual prices, but that's not how the page loads. When the 3 was introduced it was common (for Tesla AND for automotive writers) to toss out the after-incentive prices, which for the secret-handshake $35k car, at the time the 3 was introduced, would've been under $30k. I'm not saying this is some sort of conspiracy; auto writers include the same comments about incentive pricing on other qualifying vehicles as well, but a casual observer not actively shopping might be forgiven for remembering the lower numbers being tossed about.
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Old 12-17-2019, 09:04 AM   #467
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Perhaps one shouldn't squawk "fake news!" so loudly when Tesla currently advertises cars with somewhat deceptive "prices" on their website, rolling in federal incentives and their assumptions on your gas savings to give you a "cost" guesstimate instead of a price. Yes, there's a button on the page to restore that to actual prices, but that's not how the page loads. When the 3 was introduced it was common (for Tesla AND for automotive writers) to toss out the after-incentive prices, which for the secret-handshake $35k car, at the time the 3 was introduced, would've been under $30k. I'm not saying this is some sort of conspiracy; auto writers include the same comments about incentive pricing on other qualifying vehicles as well, but a casual observer not actively shopping might be forgiven for remembering the lower numbers being tossed about.
I donít see what the big deal is. $35k, $41k, who cares? Thatís a low to moderate price for a car these days.
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Old 12-17-2019, 09:24 AM   #468
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Perhaps one shouldn't squawk "fake news!" so loudly when Tesla currently advertises cars with somewhat deceptive "prices" on their website, rolling in federal incentives and their assumptions on your gas savings to give you a "cost" guesstimate instead of a price. Yes, there's a button on the page to restore that to actual prices, but that's not how the page loads. When the 3 was introduced it was common (for Tesla AND for automotive writers) to toss out the after-incentive prices, which for the secret-handshake $35k car, at the time the 3 was introduced, would've been under $30k. I'm not saying this is some sort of conspiracy; auto writers include the same comments about incentive pricing on other qualifying vehicles as well, but a casual observer not actively shopping might be forgiven for remembering the lower numbers being tossed about.
It is true that Tesla only guaranteed that they'd sell a $35k Model 3, and they did do just that (and continue to do it). They never said $30k, but incentives did bring it down to that level. The federal tax incentive for Tesla is almost completely tapered, by design of the incentive program, not by Tesla's doing. So reaching $30k is still possible in some states, but not everywhere.

That said, I couldn't agree more about the website pricing. I've complained about this since they started. I don't care if other manufacturers do it, or if they do similar things with leases (which they do). Tesla had the opportunity for transparent website pricing. At least make the default price the "before savings" tab, and allow customers to select the after savings tab to see their TCO.

With regards to overheating, the motors will be fine. The pack is more likely to need cooling. We've driven some steep and long inclines with our Model X and AS, and for a vehicle that's not designed as a tow vehicle (really only intended for occasional towing), it did very well. Single speed and silent climbing is really a game changer when climbing. No downshifting, no power slough off. I can easily maintain cruise control speeds and frequently pass other towers uphill. The battery pack will be cooled aggressively - I can hear the AC compressor running to keep it cool. But I never had power even slightly limited (which Tesla will do if you're overheating the pack), even climbing up to Hurricane Ridge in the Olympics.

One other nice thing about climbing with an EV is getting 80% of your expended energy back once you crest the pass. With a camper in tow, it's amazing how much potential energy you've got at the top of the hill.
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Old 12-17-2019, 09:44 AM   #469
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Perhaps one shouldn't squawk "fake news!" so loudly when Tesla currently advertises cars with somewhat deceptive "prices" on their website, rolling in federal incentives and their assumptions on your gas savings to give you a "cost" guesstimate instead of a price. Yes, there's a button on the page to restore that to actual prices, but that's not how the page loads. When the 3 was introduced it was common (for Tesla AND for automotive writers) to toss out the after-incentive prices, which for the secret-handshake $35k car, at the time the 3 was introduced, would've been under $30k. I'm not saying this is some sort of conspiracy; auto writers include the same comments about incentive pricing on other qualifying vehicles as well, but a casual observer not actively shopping might be forgiven for remembering the lower numbers being tossed about.
Deceptive?

Let's talk deceptive. The current sales model that is every other manufacturer, with suggested MSRP is deceptive. The games they play with option this, maintenance, protection that is an antiquated model. Who wants to waste a weekend playing negotiation games? Then add on top, the perhaps expected, but significant and unsavory cost of ownership realities including significant gas costs, frequent maintenance, SMOG tests, etc. Time taken to take care of those joys of ownership.

Tesla's sales model couldn't be more refreshing with concise and clear information on their webpage. Minimal options. Even the base model comes with significant features that it never feels like a stripper. Upgraded models have clear distinct pricing. Nevermind they regularly update the vehicle after sale to enable real functional upgrades, free, including things like more HP and range.

The incentives are real. The cost of ownership benefits are real. Time saved, I can't say enough about this as my time back is priceless to me. Never running to a public fueling facility which is a giant PITA (also looking at you fuel cells). I joke that I can spend more time tinkering with my hobby ICE cars, which is not untrue. It's paradigm shifting and absolutely refreshing. People don't understand how much they're spending in additional operational costs like gas. The website is doing its part to educate those coming from an ICE car reality.

There are growing chunks of the population already experienced and enlightened with EV, Tesla ownership, that will never again go back.

If you'd like to learn more, the real cost of ownership in owning even a $39k Tesla Model 3, is better than a $25k Camry. For that, Musk has exceeded those expecting a $30k Model 3.
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/09/27...r-cost-to-own/
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Old 12-17-2019, 10:04 AM   #470
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Not overthinking it. I smoked a transmission once so I'm wondering if Tesla is thinking about that 11 mile hill. Maybe theyll need to install oil coolers.

At some point I'd like to see EV's with gearless drives.

Kind of an apples to pears comparison.

Tesla's current design has electric motors that have two moving parts and in essence is a single speed gear-less transmission (if you can call it that).

Look at item #5- Propulsion:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/10...car-2016-08-19

So I would not be worried in the slightest about that 11 mile hill and nor should you in my humble opinion. There are a heck of a lot few parts to break in an EV setup than an ICE with conventional tranny.

I have other concerns with EVs as tow vehicles (today), most of which will be worked out, but honestly the 11 mile hill is not even in my wheelhouse. Not for Tesla and not for others delivering light/heavy trucks. Clearly if the electric semis can handle interstates at grade, loaded, a light truck is an afterthought.

Also, unlike a transmission that has bands, clutches, etc that start to break down at temps above 300F, electric motors are basically magnets, windings, steel shafts and bearings all of which have far higher heat tolerances than what is found in our current ICE transmissions.
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Old 12-17-2019, 10:18 AM   #471
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Tesla's current design has electric motors that have two moving parts and in essence is a single speed gear-less transmission (if you can call it that).
Unless there has been a recent design change, my understanding is, a speed changing gear set is attached to each electric motor that is petroleum oil lubricated with an oil filter.
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Old 12-17-2019, 11:01 AM   #472
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I believe Porche's EV has two speed transmissions. Presently EV makers are looking for performance to bring in sales. This will change when self drive cars are perfected. They will be programmed for comfort, not for speed, and they will not be going over the road speed limits. Hopefully this will allow them to use direct drive gearless motors.
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Old 12-17-2019, 11:35 AM   #473
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I believe Porche's EV has two speed transmissions. Presently EV makers are looking for performance to bring in sales. This will change when self drive cars are perfected. They will be programmed for comfort, not for speed, and they will not be going over the road speed limits. Hopefully this will allow them to use direct drive gearless motors.
I don't follow Porsche because they don't have a EV out yet, but Tesla has been selling cars for 10 years now and without transmissions, in fact I can't see how they'd need one....the Performance version of the Model S is blowing the doors off Ferarri's, Lamborginis and of course Porsches. Plus, the Porsche is suppose to have great performance, but very low range from what I've read but it's not really out yet to read a compete eval. But I digress, we are not talking about comfort or speed, we're talking towing, and namely with what Tesla has shared in terms of Cybertruck.

As far as I know the basic Tesla design has little to no gearing, and best I can tell, no actual transmission but honestly, I'm not an engineer, I just read what's out there. The linked article is around 3 years old and in terms of technology that's about 10 years.
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Old 12-17-2019, 12:57 PM   #474
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I don't follow Porsche because they don't have a EV out yet, but Tesla has been selling cars for 10 years now and without transmissions, in fact I can't see how they'd need one....the Performance version of the Model S is blowing the doors off Ferarri's, Lamborginis and of course Porsches. Plus, the Porsche is suppose to have great performance, but very low range from what I've read but it's not really out yet to read a compete eval. But I digress, we are not talking about comfort or speed, we're talking towing, and namely with what Tesla has shared in terms of Cybertruck.

As far as I know the basic Tesla design has little to no gearing, and best I can tell, no actual transmission but honestly, I'm not an engineer, I just read what's out there. The linked article is around 3 years old and in terms of technology that's about 10 years.
Tesla started off with a two speed transmission over ten years ago. They had issues, and they changed them out for single speed transmissions. The latest version of their single speed transmission has a filter and gear driven oil pump, and the oil never needs changing per the maintenance schedule.

One report says that this latest motor, in the model 3, is also used in the semi. They just use four of them. Not sure how many parts are common throughout the Tesla drive units, but it is a design objective. Considering the duty cycle of an 80,000 lb truck, I donít think towing with a lighter Tesla will be an issue.

Transmission failures of ICE drive trains resulting from towing typically relate to heat. Automatic transmissions generate heat. Manual transmissions donít generate significant heat, and most of those are not pressure lubricated with filtered oil. So, if one failed a transmission on an ICE vehicle due to towing and is concerned whether that may happen with a Tesla when towing, the questions are whether it was a manual transmission, how it was lubricated. and were there any other heat sources mounted near it, things like engines and exhaust systems.
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Old 12-17-2019, 01:49 PM   #475
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I believe Porche's EV has two speed transmissions. Presently EV makers are looking for performance to bring in sales. This will change when self drive cars are perfected. They will be programmed for comfort, not for speed, and they will not be going over the road speed limits. Hopefully this will allow them to use direct drive gearless motors.
If by direct drive you mean that the motor is directly connected to the wheel, there are reasons that isnít done.

First is the wheel torque requirement. Motor torque relates to the size (and thus the weight) of the electric motor. All manufacturers are using gear reduction to permit the use of smaller and lighter motors to develop the required power. Those motors spin at higher speeds to develop that power, thus with lower motor torque.

There have been hub motors, but they use things like planetary gear reduction, which results in high unsprung weight

Electric mining trucks use wheel motors, with things like triple gear reduction. Unsprung weight doesnít matter so much there

Direct drive is simple, and works well where the torque requirement is low. Examples that come to mind are cooling fans and LP turntables.
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Old 12-17-2019, 02:51 PM   #476
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The Tesla single speed reduction gearbox is the least of any technology concerns. A single speed reduction couldn't be more simple. The differential that is any modern car axle is far more complicated. Which the 3-motor Cybertruck is likely to even completely forego on the primary load bearing rear axle.

ICE cars, especially 4x4s are way more complicated in their power distribution drivetrains, with torque converters, transmissions, transfer case, driveshafts, up to 3 differentials, etc. Each component eating up a bit more efficiency to translate mechanical energy.

Ask Porsche how efficiency in the Taycan may be effected with it's 2-speed gearboxes.

While the Tesla semi will use the Model 3 motors, its gearbox will be specific to it. Not surprising given the different load requirement (80k lbs), and commercial duty application.

Still, the Model 3 gearbox as used in the passenger vehicle is no slouch. Already Tesla has validated the design for 1 million miles:
Attachment 357816
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Old 12-17-2019, 05:42 PM   #477
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The Tesla single speed reduction gearbox is the least of any technology concerns. A single speed reduction couldn't be more simple. The differential that is any modern car axle is far more complicated. Which the 3-motor Cybertruck is likely to even completely forego on the primary load bearing rear axle.
Has Tesla released details on their dual motor rear axle setup, for the Roadster, Model S, or Cybertruck? I assumed that if all models of the Cybertruck had the same load capacity, that the dual motor rear drive unit would probably be similar in layout to the single motor rear drive unit.
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Old 12-17-2019, 08:08 PM   #478
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So what about the bulletproof feature of the Cybertruck? What do you think of that? Part of me wonders if Musk sees a Mad Max lifestyle in our future. Do guys, city guys who are probably the primary customer who want the tough image, want bulletproofing?

Do you want a bulletproof truck? Ever needed a bulletproof truck in your travels (military overseas travels excepted)? What message do you think this sends to those who can't have this truck?
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Old 12-17-2019, 11:14 PM   #479
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So what about the bulletproof feature of the Cybertruck? What do you think of that? Part of me wonders if Musk sees a Mad Max lifestyle in our future. Do guys, city guys who are probably the primary customer who want the tough image, want bulletproofing?

Do you want a bulletproof truck? Ever needed a bulletproof truck in your travels (military overseas travels excepted)? What message do you think this sends to those who can't have this truck?
I think the "bulletproof" nature of the cold rolled 30X steel is probably more incidental to the material, and they just played it up. The glass situation is potentially a form of a response to smash and grab break-ins, which have been common on Teslas.

I would imagine anyone who drives a truck through brush would like the idea of a paint-free car with steel that's hard enough to avoid scratches. I don't think it'll be reasonably bulletproof in the end. It's just a marketing stunt and a way to show that the truck is "tough".
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Old 12-18-2019, 08:00 AM   #480
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So what about the bulletproof feature of the Cybertruck? What do you think of that? Part of me wonders if Musk sees a Mad Max lifestyle in our future. Do guys, city guys who are probably the primary customer who want the tough image, want bulletproofing?

Do you want a bulletproof truck? Ever needed a bulletproof truck in your travels (military overseas travels excepted)? What message do you think this sends to those who can't have this truck?
I live near Detroit. I think it would be a draw for folks here in the adjacent suburbs who donít want to be collateral damage.

The windshield would be desirable just for rocks thrown up by semi trucks.
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