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Old 12-06-2019, 07:15 PM   #341
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Yes, it's a shame H fuel cell technology isn't being more rapidly rolled out. It effectively addresses the issue of length of time to refill/recharge - that being the same as ICE vehicles, while being potentially even more zero emission than battery EV, while still having all the zip from the electric motors. You just can't charge them overnight at home however.

The key hold up is the lack of Hydrogen infrastructure. It's so much easier to install chargers on the ubiquitous grid, so even though it's more time hassle for the end user to charge, it's less expensive for the suppliers to provide.

FCVs are safer than EVs and ICE, just as fast/fun as EVs, just as quick to fill up as ICE, potentially more earth friendly than both (depending of if H is from electrolysis or from hydrocarbons).

I have often wondered what if a portion of the billions (trillions?) spent by Big Oil and the world governments in support of Big Oil were instead diverted into installing a hydrogen fuel station in every town, hamlet and dino fuel stop, where we would be.

BTW, I have long thought a hydrogen Fuel cell would be ideal for an RV. The key disadvantages of the early fuel cells were that they were large and bulky for a car (not as big an issue for RVs) and they generated heat and water was the exhaust (hello! perfect for RVs, extra water and the water heater is free, as is the heat for the ammonia fridge!)
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Old 12-07-2019, 01:24 AM   #342
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[*]Vehicle-to-grid (V2G) technology is also being developed around the world. V2G allows EVs to use chargers bidirectionally to turn them into mobile storage solutions — meaning EVs could help balance electricity supply and demand by making the vehicle's battery system part of the overall grid infrastructure. Vehicles could be used to store energy during periods of over-supply and provide top-ups to the grid during peak demand hours.
[/LIST]
This is interesting, a portable Tesla wall.

This would be great if you have solar panels but there would need to be something that limits the extent of discharge.
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Old 12-07-2019, 01:32 AM   #343
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Since Hydrogen vehicles are occasionally mentioned in electric vehicle threads, I thought some of you might be interested in this:
Whatever happened to the promise of hydrogen-powered cars?
Probably nothing new here if you've already been following the news on fuel cell vehicles.
Strange that it does not say anything about the problems of finding how to store H2 in a sufficient quantity on a car. A 260 mile range is EV range which we are complaining about.
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Old 12-07-2019, 03:53 AM   #344
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A 260 mile range would satisfy an Airstreamer who brings his trailer to the local lake and leaves it there all summer. It won't work for the Airstreamer who likes to do Florida to Alaska.
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Old 12-07-2019, 06:09 AM   #345
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A 260 mile range would satisfy an Airstreamer who brings his trailer to the local lake and leaves it there all summer. It won't work for the Airstreamer who likes to do Florida to Alaska.
I don’t know about that.... if one could quickly refill ala gas station, that’s not too bad....as long as hydrogen fill stations were plentiful enough. After driving for 4 hours, we’re ready to get out & walk around for a few minutes.
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Old 12-07-2019, 07:35 AM   #346
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Strange that it does not say anything about the problems of finding how to store H2 in a sufficient quantity on a car. A 260 mile range is EV range which we are complaining about.
With one major difference. A fuel cell can be refilled in minutes. An EV would take an hour or more. While range is a problem, the time to recharge is a larger problem.
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Old 12-07-2019, 07:44 AM   #347
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Strange that it does not say anything about the problems of finding how to store H2 in a sufficient quantity on a car. A 260 mile range is EV range which we are complaining about.
We have a few hydrogen fuel stations (Shell) locally in Vancouver, and the hydrogen fuel cell (HFC) vehicles available from Toyota, Hyundai, and Honda have between 500 and 600 km range. However, since there isn’t a weight issue as with adding batteries, vehicles could be designed for more range by just adding tanks, eg three carbon fibre cylinders instead of the two most are using now. Toyota will release their next generation HFC in 2020, and is targeting 750 km range, with a goal of 1000 km by 2025. They also plan to move into pickup trucks according to their announcements.

Manufacturers are also planning medium and heavy duty HFC vehicles, up through Class 8 semis, and range will simply depend on how many tanks are installed.

Worth noting that these are EVs, but not BEVs. They use a small lithium battery to handle acceleration, but in steady operation the electrical power comes from the fuel cell. So, they drive like an EV, but don’t lose range in cold weather. Fuel cost is expected to be similar to a traditional ICE. Given the cost issues, I think that BEVs will be far more popular in the coming decades. However, it is good to see work being done on fuel cell vehicles, as can complement BEVs, more than compete with them.
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Old 12-07-2019, 07:56 AM   #348
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Toyota sells a fuel cell sedan called the Mirai. I just looked it up. They claim it emits just water, no CO2. Not particularly quick with a zero to 60 mph of 9 seconds, but it has a 300 mile range. They claim refills in 3 to 5 minutes. It can be leased for $389/month with free fuel for 3 years.

The downside is the availability of hydrogen fuel. Very few refilling locations. I suppose the other downside is energy needed to cleanly manufacture hydrogen. Right now they make it through a process called steam methane reforming, which emits carbon dioxide.
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Old 12-07-2019, 09:05 AM   #349
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Just curious as to how inconvenient it is to find/plan for charging your Tesla or other EV's in daily use? Do you plan your days and always watch the battery meter like a fuel gauge? My 38 year old son, bought a model X last summer and loved it with all the bells and whistles...he just sold it and got an Audi...said for his line of work, finding a charging station all the time was a problem for him when the "newness" wore off.

I remember when I was young and bringing in big paychecks, purchasing a brand new Cadillac Eldorado and 8 months later selling it to my boss, then getting a new MBZ turbodiesel...oh, does the wife still beat me over the head with all the money we "invested" in cars over the years...

I saw a headline yesterday that Tesla is accelerating production of the truck...must be the pre-orders driving this new revenue stream.
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Old 12-07-2019, 09:20 AM   #350
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Boy how we like to segway to anything but what this thread is about - tesla cybertruck.

As an EV owner for 10 years now, hydrogen has zero interest from me. Infrastructure waaay behind EVs. No "fueling" at home. High pressure fueling. Vehicle complexity. The future beyond hydrogen has arrived and it is the battery electric vehicle (BEV). Many communities today are master planned without even natural gas infrastructure. To think we would plumb for hydrogen in established cities, new communities....not going to happen. It's a good technology that's time has been leapfrogged.

Non-EV owners are forgetting that advanced electrical charging technology is already here and infrastructure ever growing. Tesla has a 250kw V3 charging stations that fill at 1000 mile/hr rates. The cybertruck is going to have a dual stacked battery, which potentially can mean it could charge with dual 250kw chargers. That's over 2000 mile/hr rates. Hours for charging? Nope. It's already better than that today. It'll reach parity with gas in the very near future.

Best part is really, not having to visit a public "gas" station at all.
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Old 12-07-2019, 09:26 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by kscherzi View Post
Toyota sells a fuel cell sedan called the Mirai. I just looked it up. They claim it emits just water, no CO2. Not particularly quick with a zero to 60 mph of 9 seconds, but it has a 300 mile range. They claim refills in 3 to 5 minutes. It can be leased for $389/month with free fuel for 3 years.

The downside is the availability of hydrogen fuel. Very few refilling locations. I suppose the other downside is energy needed to cleanly manufacture hydrogen. Right now they make it through a process called steam methane reforming, which emits carbon dioxide.
The Mirai is a sedan. The Hyundai is an SUV, with more range.

The future of hydrogen production is via electrolysis, from renewable electrical sources such as wind, solar, and hydro. The hydrogen can be produced locally in modular units, avoiding or minimizing transportation issues.
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Old 12-07-2019, 10:20 AM   #352
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I posted this several months ago. Makes sense. https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/6/18...plug-in-hybrid
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Old 12-07-2019, 10:45 AM   #353
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Educating people about new technologies is an incredible barrier that shouldn't be underestimated. Take EVs for example, in this very thread.

To think that hydrogen has a chance given the barriers - education, high pressure systems, transport, immature technology, vehicle complexity, infrastructure...

Why "fuel" with anything but direct electrons?

Let the industrial installations reap the benefits of hydrogen efficiencies.

In regards to vehicle-to-grid, the cybertruck is coming with inverters to support 115V and 220V. It's going to make easy integration or easy backup with those interfaces built in, independent of a specific V2G port. For home. Or RV. Or anything else.

Recent news on the Tesla Semi going into initial production next year suggests they are going to beat their range targets. Model Y production is starting earlier still. Triple motor 500+ mile cybertruck variant is getting pulled forward in the timeline based on order interest.

Tesla's confluence of technology and momentum is hitting its stride.

I wouldn't be surprised if they exceed their 500mile range target as they've consistently sandbagged in specs with significant performance improvements, many enabled by software updates over time.
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Old 12-07-2019, 10:47 AM   #354
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I am disappointed in Toyota. We have had many of them. They are reliable and somewhat dull. But they are concentrating on style and speed lately and have tried to lower mileage standards. Above posts confirm they have concentrated on fuel cells instead of EV options. That is strange since they made hybrids popular, but the answer is in who is running the company. The Toyoda family controls the company and new, young CEO wants some flash. I have not heard reliability has suffered, but given the direction the company is going in, maybe it is. We have had a Tundra since 2007 and with more than 130,000 miles, it runs flawlessly. It loves gas. So it looks like the Tundra is the same vehicle it was in 2007 except for some sheet metal changes and a better looking dashboard. That is not what I call innovation.

Ford came out with the EcoBoost several years ago and Ford owners seem happy, though they don't get much different towing mileage than the older engines. Better mileage as a daily driver is important, so that is a point for Ford. Chevy claims better mileage than in the past, but the US companies' vehicles are less reliable. Chrysler products have long rated very low in reliability and being bought by Fiat (Fix It Again Tony) has not helped.

If the Tesla and Rivian trucks sell well despite their prices, the other truck companies are going to take a hit since they are not changing very fast. Ford has a deal with Rivian, so they will be able to adopt EV truck technology faster. Ford has seemingly been more open to climate issues than GM (why did they stop making the Volt—is it because GM consistently makes bad choices like destroying Saturn?) and I think they will do well.

Toyota expected to sell twice as many Tundras as they have. The Great Recession did not help, but the truck, as good as it is, has never replaced the Detroit trucks as Toyota had hoped. But instead of making significant improvements in the Tundra, now they have fancy models costing near Porsche prices. At this point in my life, I may never buy another truck because we use the Tundra much less now. It will probably last 20 or more years that way, so if we buy another truck, we will have sold any trailer we have and may look for a medium sized truck. We actually use our truck for truck things like transporting building materials home and a rare Costco trip where we stock up for many months.

Any new thing takes years to set up infrastructure and to refine the product. Well over a century since the first car, refinements to gas engines, transmissions and the rest are still going on. During WW II, milk was still being delivered with horses and wagons in New York City! Charging stations are spreading rapidly and perhaps some day we will see hydrogen stations if both technologies dominate the future vehicle market. While range anxiety is still an issue with EV's, how far could a 1910 or 1920 car go? Early cars broke down before they ran out of gas. They were very hard to start. Somehow, it took decades before all of them were completely enclosed and kept out the weather. In the 1950's heaters and radios were still options. Even in the 1960's, brakes lasted 20,000 miles, clutches were about the same, few had A/C and they broke down a lot. Remember cleaning and resetting points—frequently? Remember when vehicles were terrible in snow? You had to change oil and grease them every few months if you drove a lot. The electrical systems in the 1950's were weak and they finally went to 12 volts. It took more than a century to have cars that last years and years, start easily, stop in much shorter distances, handle far better and now you can even get heated and air conditioned seats.

I remember 1950's cars with fondness, probably because I was a teenager and cars were part of growing up. When I see them in a car show they look really small and I expect driving them would scare a lot of people. A young person would have no idea how to keep them running and riding in one would probably terrify them requiring plastic seat covers for cleaning up. About ten years ago a friend bought a restored Model A Ford. They were really small and uncomfortable. A teenage friend had a Model A back in the '50's. They seemed plenty big then. My sports cars in the '60's seemed big too, now I don't know if I could get in or out of one. Times change and 50 years from now gas and diesel vanity trucks will be looked at as an aberration.

I have also been concerned with efficiency of full sized trucks and RV's compared to traveling with a higher gas mileage vehicle and staying in motels or tents. Tents just don't work well when you are pushing 80. Motels are often uncomfortable and have become all the same with bad breakfasts and box like rooms. Many restaurants never have been places to get healthy food, so before our RV days we brought a lot of food, a difficult thing to do. An RV solved those problems. Comparing the carbon costs of motels and restaurants vs. campgrounds and the rest of such costs between RV and non-RV travel is far beyond most people's ability. I certainly can't figure it out. If I were 20 years younger and contemplating an RV, I would consider the most fuel efficient vehicle and a lighter RV, but now I use these things less and less and there's no point in starting over.

A Tesla or Rivian costs so much that for a few years they will attract first adopters and few others. That will give the companies time to increase efficiencies both in production and for customers driving the trucks. Prices will drop—they must to sell enough products for a company to survive. The companies that are first in increasing efficiency will survive and perhaps in 10 years one or both companies will dominate the market or be gone. That's the way change happens. At some point—10 or 20 years maybe—it could be hard to find gasoline or diesel for your classic truck. Maybe then there will be no Dodge/Rams, Fords or whatever. If you think that is impossible, go for a ride in your Packard and think about it.
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Old 12-07-2019, 01:39 PM   #355
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On a note about overnight charging of fuel cell vehicles (or generally "at home"). This would be straightforward if the electrolysis/solar panel system were sufficiently efficient, which physics indicate they should be. What the hydrogen system really needs is an interested party like Musk with money like Musk to just build the infrastructure. That's what he did and that is one of the primary reasons BEVs took off. I bet I see several Teslas every day on the road. I have driven some fuel cell cars and they have a similar driving experience (quite, torquey) but aside from the fueling infrastructure the technology of the fuel cell itself (membrane, catalysts) is not quite ready in terms of cost and reliability. Good potential, though. Batteries have primarily a weight issue in vehicles; with fuel cells it is a space issue so I would expect that trucks may be a potential path forward.
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Old 12-08-2019, 11:02 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by gypsydad View Post
Just curious as to how inconvenient it is to find/plan for charging your Tesla or other EV's in daily use? Do you plan your days and always watch the battery meter like a fuel gauge?

We bought a Tesla Model 3 in 2018 when VW had to buy back our 2009 TDI due to their malfeasance. I got a long 50 A RV extension cord that I plug into the welder outlet and use that to charge the Tesla when it needs it (every few days, depending of course on usage), just as one would remember to fill up a gas car, except that it charges at night by itself.


With a nominal range of 320 miles, we don't worry about recharging when running errands, etc.


For long distance drives (we drove just under 1000 miles last Sunday, from Anacortes, WA to Menlo Park CA in winter conditions - 3 drivers, and about $65 worth of electricity), we use the Supercharger network. One verbally tells the car where one wants to go ('Navigate to Menlo Park, California') and it computes where we'll need to stop for recharging and how long it will take at each stop (anywhere from 15 minutes to 50, depending on distances, climbing, etc). The Superchargers charge at 150 KW (250 KW units are coming) and we try to adjust meal time charging to take longer, since the Tesla tends to finish charging faster than we finish eating.



They really are qute remarkable cars, intensely computerized and quite fast. Our LR model (single motor) does 0-60 in under 5 seconds, and handles very nicely indeed.


I look forward to electric trucks.


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Old 12-10-2019, 05:12 AM   #357
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You guys are getting me fired up for an electric truck. Heard on the radio yesterday about GM selling a plant in Ohio that’s going to build electric trucks. A quick read says they should retail at $37,000 (with $7,500 tax rebate). In 10 -12 years when my old Tundra is hitting the 20 yr mark, my guess is these will be pretty well known, and there will be some good used ones available.
Question. How much is it to fill from close to empty at a charging station? On barts post above he says $65 worth of electricity. I’m guessing 3 or 4 stops on a 1,000 mile trip, so $15 to $20 to recharge? I’ve seen my brother put $100 worth of diesel in his F-250 before, that was an eye opener. (Big tank, and high diesel prices).
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Old 12-10-2019, 06:41 AM   #358
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Yes, it's a shame H fuel cell technology isn't being more rapidly rolled out. It effectively addresses the issue of length of time to refill/recharge - that being the same as ICE vehicles, while being potentially even more zero emission than battery EV, while still having all the zip from the electric motors. You just can't charge them overnight at home however.

The key hold up is the lack of Hydrogen infrastructure. It's so much easier to install chargers on the ubiquitous grid, so even though it's more time hassle for the end user to charge, it's less expensive for the suppliers to provide.

FCVs are safer than EVs and ICE, just as fast/fun as EVs, just as quick to fill up as ICE, potentially more earth friendly than both (depending of if H is from electrolysis or from hydrocarbons).

I have often wondered what if a portion of the billions (trillions?) spent by Big Oil and the world governments in support of Big Oil were instead diverted into installing a hydrogen fuel station in every town, hamlet and dino fuel stop, where we would be.

BTW, I have long thought a hydrogen Fuel cell would be ideal for an RV. The key disadvantages of the early fuel cells were that they were large and bulky for a car (not as big an issue for RVs) and they generated heat and water was the exhaust (hello! perfect for RVs, extra water and the water heater is free, as is the heat for the ammonia fridge!)
There are 3 major impediments that serve to keep the hydrogen economy from being realized. Each will require major technology breakthroughs before we get there.

1. Hydrogen is expensive to transport. It costs about 8x per BTU to transport H2 than it does liquid hydrocarbon fuels. This implies the need for local generation of hydrogen gas.

2. The existing infrastructure (e.g. natural gas) is not adequate to use for H2, so piping hydrogen around would require all-new plumbing. Since the H2 molecule is so small, the cost of this infrastructure is much greater than typical piping we have for current natural gas.

3. Today, most of the world’s H2 is created from natural gas. You might have “clean” energy at point-of-use, but there is still a substantial greenhouse gas impact of the CO2 from the overall supply chain.

And I’ll throw in a bonus 4th impediment for fuel cells...

4. If you’re simply burning the hydrogen (i.e. hydrogen internal combustion engine), you can get away with a fair amount of trace contaminants in your fuel. However, electrochemical oxidation of hydrogen (e.g. fuel cells) requires extremely high purity levels. Gas cleanup is quite expensive to reach the required specifications.

In spite of what I’ve just written, I’m truly believe that the “hydrogen economy” can really impact environmental conditions on Mother Earth and I hope we can get there sooner rather than later. I am worried that we are not institutionally (government, corporate, university, etc.) spending enough research dollars on removing these blockers. So until then, let the electric vehicle trend continue to expand!
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Old 12-10-2019, 07:21 AM   #359
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I have often driven from northern California to Arizona to visit family for special occasions. The drive, at 814 miles one way, is 99% freeway at 75 +/- mph. By switching drivers we make it in one long day. About 11 hours drive time, plus 1.5 hours worth of stops makes it a 13.5 hour trip. Not towing anything of course.

Tesla has a neat website feature that'll create a route with recharging stops and durations. It estimated my drive at 16 hours with four recharging stops along the assuming a model S long range version. It also estimated I'd save $111 compared to a gas vehicle. I'll expect that meals and rests would be concurrent with recharging so no added time for additional stops.

But the math isn't yet compelling. The $111 savings assumed 21 mpg vs their electric car. My F150 Ecoboost got 21.5 mpg last week average over and back, so a comparison between a truck and sedan isn't really apples to apples (and it has 650 miles of range). A sedan more like the Model S, say a Toyota Camery or Audi would probably average close to double the mileage this cutting the assumed savings. Also, a new Model S Long Range retails for nearly $100 K when optioned up. Depreciation is a huge expense compared to, say a Toyota Camry probably making the Tesla more costly to own and killing the financial argument.

There's other electric vehicles that are cheaper but have shorter range making them less desirable for long road trips. Especially if they then require overnight hotel stays along the way.

Nonetheless, my wife and I agree we'll closely look at an electric when time comes to replace our small sedan we use for local trips.
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Old 12-10-2019, 07:50 AM   #360
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Just curious as to how inconvenient it is to find/plan for charging your Tesla or other EV's in daily use?
I can't speak for other manufacturers, but Tesla has a coast to coast and many points in between charge network. In fact the car (and I would assume the truck will as well) have the smarts built in that show range to next charger, best mph to assure you reach it. Yes, there will be about 30 minutes to get 80% charged, but Tesla's vast supercharger network literally grows by the month.

https://www.tesla.com/en_EU/supercharger

Other car companies don't have anything close to this. On the flip side, the other car companies have a vast service support structure meaning when on the road you are more apt to find a Chevy, Ford, Dodge, Toyota, etc service center on your trip than a Tesla repair shop. That worries me more than finding a place to charge a Tesla. Not even sure a local garage will be able to do much with a Tesla if it gets much beyond tires, maybe brakes.

That worries me more than finding a place to charge a Tesla and honestly is one of the only things holding me back from picking up a Tesla pickup. I just don't feel comfortable with the idea of being stranded somewhere in say Montana or Wyoming near a very small town that can't get me back on the road, adding days if not weeks to my trip. If that were solved, where I could bring the car to even a mom and pop repair shop and could get it back on the road like I could a Chevy, I'd be sold. Locally it'd not be an issue, but my main motivation for a Tesla pickup would be to tow an Airstream on a long trip.
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