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Old 08-11-2021, 09:49 AM   #121
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I'm 71 with a Tundra with only 15,000 miles. By the time I'm ready to trade in my tow vehicle for an EV, my airstreaming days are likely going to be over.
In five to ten years, charging stations will be more ubiquitous and the technology will have improved to have us wondering why we ever did internal combustion. I might change my mind about my TV when the EV Ford 150 hits the market...
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Old 08-11-2021, 09:56 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by alreed View Post
I'm 71 with a Tundra with only 15,000 miles. By the time I'm ready to trade in my tow vehicle for an EV, my airstreaming days are likely going to be over.
In five to ten years, charging stations will be more ubiquitous and the technology will have improved to have us wondering why we ever did internal combustion. I might change my mind about my TV when the EV Ford 150 hits the market...
More charging stations won't help the electric grid infrastructure. As I think others have mentioned, the high temperatures this year have lead to people in California being asked to not charge their EVs in some cases. Going from fossil fuels to electric may not be zero sum, but it is using less of one source and more of another. We have to face the tough choice of where our power will come from and from what I've read solar, wind, natural gas is not enough. Nuclear has to be in the equation but NIMBY people will fight to the death on that one.
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Old 08-11-2021, 11:19 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Sophiehaus View Post
The Tesla Truck is not ready for prime time. Until battery technology is improved I would avoid this truck if you are planning on some serious towing. If you are looking for novelty then this is the truck for you. Also the Tesla truck is not as green as one would think.

Below is a recent article from Wired.

Tesla's Electric Cars Aren't as Green as You Might Think
Despite their green cred, Tesla cars create pollution and carbon emissions in ways that are easily overlooked by consumers and investors.
superchargercolumbusmedium.jpg
TESLA
ELON MUSK IS unveiling the Tesla Model 3 today. If you're planning to buy one, you’re probably feeling pretty good about yourself. Not only will you have a sweet ride, but you’ll be doing something good for the environment! No gasoline-powered sports cars to get you through your midlife crisis, thank you very much. You care about global warming.

But how green is a Tesla, really? Devonshire Research Group, an investment firm that specializes in valuing tech companies, dug into the data and concluded that Tesla's environmental benefits may be more hyped than warranted. Devonshire isn’t saying that Tesla is pulling a Volkswagen, or that its cars are spewing greenhouse gases from invisible tailpipes. It’s arguing that Teslas (and, by extension, all electric vehicles) create pollution and carbon emissions in other ways. Each stage of an EV's life has environmental impacts, and while they aren't as obvious as a tailpipe pumping out fumes, that doesn't make them any less damaging.

Let's start with the basics. Your electric car doesn’t need gas, but it still might get its energy from burning carbon. It depends on how your local grid generates electricity. “If you use coal-fired power plants to produce the electricity, then all-electrics don’t even look that much better than a traditional vehicle in terms of greenhouse gases,” says Virginia McConnell, an economist at the environmental research firm Resources for the Future. But if your local grid incorporates a fair amount of renewable solar and wind energy, like California, your electric vehicle is pretty clean.

Of course, gasoline doesn't exist in a vacuum, either: Refining, processing, and transporting gas add emissions that car owners must factor into their overall carbon footprint, the so-called "well-to-wheel" tally. It takes as much energy to produce a gallon of gasoline as a Model S consumes in 20 miles of driving, according to Department of Energy data. When you add all those extra expenditures up, "an electric car like the Model S has almost four times lower CO2 per mile than an equivalent gas-powered car,” says a Tesla spokesperson. So while the emissions argument is tantalizing for gas guzzlers, the average numbers still come out in favor of electric vehicles.

Beyond Emissions
The math gets trickier, though, when you include other forms of environmental damage. Electric cars need to be light, which means they include a lot of high-performing metals. The lithium in the batteries, for example, is super light and conductive—that’s how you get a lot of energy without adding a lot of weight. Other, rare metals are sprinkled throughout the car, mostly in the magnets that are in everything from the headlights to the on-board electronics.

But those rare metals come from somewhere—often, from environmentally destructive mines. It’s not just Tesla, of course. All electric vehicles rely on parts with similar environmental issues. Even solar panels depend on rare metals that have to be dug out of the earth and processed in less-than-green ways, says David Abraham, author of the book The Elements of Power. (Disclosure: I helped edit some chapters of the book.)

We can’t look at mining as an over-there thing and at Tesla as an over-here thing. They’re intricately linked.
DAVID ABRAHAM
Rare metals only exist in tiny quantities and inconvenient places—so you have to move a lot of earth to get just a little bit. In the Jiangxi rare earth mine in China, Abraham writes, workers dig eight-foot holes and pour ammonium sulfate into them to dissolve the sandy clay. Then they haul out bags of muck and pass it through several acid baths; what’s left is baked in a kiln, leaving behind the rare earths required by everything from our phones to our Teslas.

At this mine, those rare earths amounted to 0.2 percent of what gets pulled out of the ground. The other 99.8 percent—now contaminated with toxic chemicals—is dumped back into the environment. That damage is difficult to quantify, just like the impact of oil drilling.

And, as in every stage of the process, mining has hidden emissions. Jiangxi has it relatively easy because it’s digging up clay, but many mines rely on rock-crushing equipment with astronomical energy bills, as well as coal-fired furnaces for the final baking stages. Those spew a lot of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere in the process of refining a material destined for your zero-emissions car. In fact, manufacturing an electric vehicle generates more carbon emissions than building a conventional car, mostly because of its battery, the Union of Concerned Scientists has found.

“We’re shifting pollution, and in the process we’re hoping that it doesn’t have the environmental impact,” says Abraham. He believes that when you add all the environmental impacts, they still come out in favor of electric vehicles. (The Union of Concerned Scientists agrees; it found that even when you add in emissions from battery manufacturing, EVs generate half the emissions of a conventional car over the course of its life.) Still, consumers and investors should understand what it takes to make the materials that enable their green choices. “I don’t think there’s been much discussion of that,” Abraham says. “We can’t look at mining as an over-there thing and at Tesla as an over-here thing. They’re intricately linked.”

Overall, “the greenhouse-gas-emissions footprint of electric vehicles can be pretty high on the front end, as they’re being built,” says McConnell. “And so you need to get a lot of benefits on the other side, when you use it.” And after you're done using it.

Life After Death
Now let’s fast-forward 15 years, to when your Tesla Model 3 is on its last legs. Where is the battery going to go? The good news is: not to a landfill. “It has not been accepted for a battery that comes out of a car to go to a landfill for decades,” says electric car advocate Chelsea Sexton. Instead, “battery recyclers are piloting technologies to recover a lot of materials from those batteries,” says Shanika Amarakoon, a researcher at the firm Abt Associates who partnered with the Environmental Protection Agency to write a report on the impacts of lithium-ion batteries in electric cars.

A Tesla battery is big—the pack in the Model S tops half a ton, far bigger than anything most e-recycling outfits take—so coming up with an efficient and cost-effective recycling process will take some work, and only a few companies specialize in recycling lithium batteries right now. “The challenge that we have with recycling these rare metals is enormous,” Abraham says, “because the products that we have now use metals in such a small quantity that it’s not economic to recycle.”

But that could change when there are million of electric vehicles on US roads and millions of old batteries to recycle. “The more batteries that are out there, in various devices, the more interest there is in figuring out how to recycle them or to recapture rare earth metals [from them],” Sexton says. Plus, used electric car batteries can still be useful for energy storage, whether in a single building or as part of grids that incorporate more solar and wind. That can help offset the environmental costs of making the batteries in the first place.

According to Tesla's spokesperson, the company already recycles all battery packs returned to it and plans to do more. As the battery market grows—driven by investments like Tesla’s upcoming Gigafactory—its greater numbers will drive up recycling efficiencies and reduce impact on the environment.
Very helpful article—thanks for the research!
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Old 08-11-2021, 11:58 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Sophiehaus View Post
The Tesla Truck is not ready for prime time. Until battery technology is improved I would avoid this truck if you are planning on some serious towing. If you are looking for novelty then this is the truck for you. Also the Tesla truck is not as green as one would think.

Below is a recent article from Wired…..
.
Not recent, 5 years ago. Usually these types of claims are put out by the fossil fuel industry. Not sure about this one.

Here is a recent article, by an independent non profit. Life cycle GHG emissions of ICE vs EV.

https://theicct.org/publications/glo...r-cars-jul2021
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Old 08-11-2021, 12:08 PM   #125
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This is a great info. If I may do a thought experiment to project what similar range trips may look like for a tri-motor CT with a presumed range of 500 miles. If I digested correctly, you have a Model X P90D rated at 254 miles, with about 170 miles usable when towing a Bowlus Road Cheif (25', 4k lbs). Towing range delta about 66% of its rated range.

Assuming CT rated @ 500miles unladen, and estimating towing range to be 60% is 300 miles. Let's be conservative and call it 250 miles towing range for higher 65mph towing speeds and less aero efficiency than the Bowlus.

"Short and Medium" days can effectively be collapsed. Or anything less than 250 is reachable in one charge. Potentially never having to even step aside to visit a public charge station and only utilizing destination (aka full hookup campsite) chargers. Not having to visit that first fuel stop to prepare for the day gives EVs a time advantage here. If driving faster or wanting more margin, a single stop coinciding with a bio/coffee/rest stop would not add any time to the trip over ICE.

"Long days"...days when traveling >250 miles. Would be similar except one less potential stop. Charging could be faster still with a larger battery. Most everything 400 miles or less (which is the bulk of my personal long travel days), would only result in a single charge stop. Which I would want to break for lunch anyhow. A CT could be at time parity with a gas vehicle on these longer days. Provided that superchargers and 3rd party compatible stations are densely deployed enough. If one wanted to do 600 miles (more power to you), that's just another extra stop for dinner.

Nevermind all the great power advantages that an EV has to support a travel trailer. To run A/C at rest stops, charge, or what have you. Goodbye generator and expensive large solar and lithium battery upgrades.
All of this is great info!

We have a Tesla Model 3, and all of the real world and speculative numbers make sense except—for best battery health, Tesla advises not fully charging or depleting the battery, except occasionally. As in for long trips. They also advise not supercharging except for long trips. Tesla techs can run a battery health check remotely, and after three years, ours is excellent. Because we don’t take long trips, we never supercharge (only home overnight charging at 220v instead of supercharging at 440). And we keep our battery between the recommended 80% and 20%.

This effectively reduces our 310 mile range (without towing) by taking 20% (62 miles) off both the top and the bottom. So 310 - (2x61)= 178 effective miles of range—if we want maximum battery health.

Apple recommends that we keep our iPhones between 85% and 55% of charge, so Tesla’s guidance is certainly better than that! But of course just as keeping one’s iPhone battery in the perfect range is not very practical, neither is keeping an EV’s battery in the perfect range for max battery health if you’re doing longer trips under load.

All of that being said, it’s encouraging seeing this done with Model S 90D (or 100D with upgraded battery pack) and will be very exciting to see what the Cybertruck can do in the real world. As far As torque and hp plus handling and payload, of course, the EV’s are superb. Our Model 3 is quicker than my 2006 Porsche Cayman S, and though not much compares with a Porsche suspension, with the Tesla battery comprising a huge percentage of the vehicle overall weight and mounted 5.5” off the ground, the road handling ability is inherently excellent. And that’s with a vehicle that is much heavier than a performance ICE equivalent. (Approx 4000 lbs for the Modrl3 and 3000 for the mire engine Cayman S.)

Translating this to towing an AS with its relatively low center of gravity, that’s a super rig for handling, performance and overall safety.

As we spent more and more time traveling with our AS /one ton Sprinter small diesel rig, we learned that a good travel day was around 250 miles (although we’ve done as much as 675 to work around an approaching massive storm in Texas.) 250 miles means a very pleasant driving day for a two driver rig with frequent stops still allowing you to reach your destination mid afternoon with plenty of time to setup camp and explore the new surroundings, even if you’re leaving in the morning, and both drivers are not tired (or grumpy!) upon arriva.

The trick, as most of you know, is that the journey is as important as the destination. It took us a while, but we learned to use our time to take longer to make each trip, instead of focusing only on the final destination.

I have great hope for EV’s for towing, as they will prove economically feasible in “fuel consumption” and are inherently fantastic tow vehicles with their heavy mass, low center of gravity, and huge torque and hp combined with top notch creature comforts. As the quoted article states, even with all the environmental consequences, they still prove less polluting throughout their lives than ICE vehicles, and that will hopefully improve as grids become less dependent on fossil fuels and more clever recycling methods for batteries are designed.

One other point—I still think that solar systems, ideally with lithium batteries (for their lightweight and greater efficiency per weight and size) are going to remain necessary for those of us who boondock for anything other than short stays (we don’t like to disturb our fellow boondockers with generators, nor do we like to carry them!)
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Old 08-11-2021, 12:10 PM   #126
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I have ordered the new Model S Long Range for my personal tow vehicle. I think the extra efficiency of the sedan will be more beneficial than the extra battery in the trucks. I won't see the S until this winter sometime.

As a daily driver I can drive the Tesla all year on less power than my pool pumps need for 3 months.

Everyone that has test driven the Tesla has been quite blown away by how it tows. Like nothing else.

On this page there are 3 articles I have written on our Model 3 towing experience so far. The latest is the top one.

https://www.rvlifemag.com/category/rv-life/hitch-hints/

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Old 08-11-2021, 12:29 PM   #127
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My diesel truck can do up to 900 miles while towing a 30ft classic and get fuel most anywhere.
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Old 08-11-2021, 01:20 PM   #128
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Elon Musk has made great leaps in all technologies. His Tesla autos are fantastic. I will wait until the battery technology, charge stations, rate of charge, mileage range, towing capacity, and dually availability are no different than my 48 gallon F350 DRW crew cab diesel. I may be asking for much, but Tesla is not there yet, and I have no doubt he will get there and exceed all expectations. Just not now for me.
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Old 08-11-2021, 01:37 PM   #129
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Thanksgiving 2024. Just add travel trailers
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Old 08-11-2021, 01:44 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by mikeinca View Post
Like most things Elon Musk/Tesla, there is no doubt a certain amount of hyperbole involved. As has been mentioned, the truck might be capable of 500 miles on a single charge (although Tesla routinely overpromises and underdelivers on mileage claims) but I'm betting there is NO WAY it will do 500 miles with a trailer in tow.

I'm an EV fan, but aside from a few specialized situations for a few people, and for a number of reasons, they are not yet ready to be a tow vehicle for most of us.

Tell us please, the amount of $$ are you willing to bet against Elon's hyperbole?



"Science motivated by curiosity is an intellectual process that is neither true or false"
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Old 08-11-2021, 01:54 PM   #131
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It's tough to call him an out and out snake oil salesman. Tesla cars are pretty nice. Almost bought a model 3 for commuting but I woke up and got my deposit back and bought a Honda Civic. Nonetheless, the cars are real. And so is SpaceX. Tough to argue the success so far. But CyberTruck, The Boring Project, the battery factory and of course his mysterious Vulcan Mind Meld Brain Chip. He's got a lot of people feeding his dream machine. He's a master of distraction. When you have one or two things that are solid and successful (Tesla & SpaceX), it makes it hard to convince people the rest is BS.

That aside, I think EVs have their place. But they have to live on their own without tax breaks and other financial hocus pokus.


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Tell us please, the amount of $$ are you willing to bet against Elon's hyperbole?



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Old 08-11-2021, 02:01 PM   #132
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Tell us please, the amount of $$ are you willing to bet against Elon's hyperbole?

"Science motivated by curiosity is an intellectual process that is neither true or false"
-Don Richardson
You mean, how much will I bet that the Cybertruck, when it is some day finally released to the public, won't tow an Airstream for 500 miles between charges?

How much have you got?

BTW, very humble of you to quote yourself!
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Old 08-11-2021, 02:01 PM   #133
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My diesel truck can do up to 900 miles while towing a 30ft classic and get fuel most anywhere.
Belching all the way home, and shortchanging future generations.

Maybe best settled with a race up the mountain with the future CT?
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Old 08-11-2021, 02:06 PM   #134
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Belching all the way home, and shortchanging future generations.

Maybe best settled with a race up the mountain with the future CT?
I've got 800 pounds of anti-belch, tree hugging technology keeping me company with my diesel. Shifting the use load from fossil fuel supply chain to a decrepit electrical grid and insufficient power generation infrastructure does nothing to help future generations.
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Old 08-11-2021, 02:27 PM   #135
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I've got 800 pounds of anti-belch, tree hugging technology keeping me company with my diesel. Shifting the use load from fossil fuel supply chain to a decrepit electrical grid and insufficient power generation infrastructure does nothing to help future generations.
I'll do my part powering my transportation with my own solar array.

I get it, change is hard. That Tesla is changing the game with more efficiency, more capacity, less weight, less consumption, less rare earth minerals, more recycling - any change is going to be met by skepticism and criticism until fully proven. That's a good thing. And 10 yrs later, the rest of the world is still catching up and joining the conversation. Heck, Sophiehaus posted an article from 2016 to make his assumptions about the CT. Which is a generation back from where Tesla is on the cusp of today with the new 4680 cells.

But stay on course captain. Obviously humanity has got a great trajectory going and it's not worth considering other options. What harm is there burning more dinosaurs when we've already burned so many?
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Old 08-11-2021, 02:32 PM   #136
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And let's not forget about today's generation. Cobalt and Lithium don't just fall from the sky.

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/5/...an-rights-dell
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Old 08-11-2021, 02:37 PM   #137
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A few people have pointed out that campgrounds will have the power to charge your car - it's a question of will they let you? Tesla has built-in cabling for 120 or 240, and some Tesla drivers already carry a NEMA 10-30 (110v 30A) or NEMA 14-50 (240v 50A) just like RV plugs. I believe they can recharge in about 8 hours with 50A service.

Do you modify your trailer to pass through to the Tesla? Modify the Tesla to pass through to the trailer?

A big question will arise from campground owners when people start showing up and charging their cars: Will we see an EV surcharge to the price of parking or an outright rejection of electric vehicles?

Perhaps this is an opportunity for Elon to partner with the RV industry and build more charging locations?

Found a story of an EV owner using RV sites for charging and their results: https://ventricular.org/ItsElectric/...rk-campground/
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Old 08-11-2021, 02:45 PM   #138
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And let's not forget about today's generation. Cobalt and Lithium don't just fall from the sky.

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/5/...an-rights-dell
It's hard to see the forest through the trees.

I don't dismiss that there are impacts and changes and ultimately everything has a cost. Big picture is that environmental and cost impacts are potentially much higher today, and ultimately not sustainable. Fossil fuels and current manufacturing resources surely don't fall from the sky either.
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Old 08-11-2021, 02:48 PM   #139
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It's hard to see the forest through the trees.

I don't dismiss that there are impacts and changes and ultimately everything has a cost. Big picture is that environmental and cost impacts are potentially much higher today, and ultimately not sustainable. Fossil fuels and current manufacturing resources surely don't fall from the sky either.
Good enough. We can leave it at that.
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Old 08-11-2021, 05:32 PM   #140
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So you tow a trailer with a electric truck and you get to your RV park, do you plug in your trailer and turn on your air-conditioning or plug in your truck. There aren't any parks out there that can handle both at the same time. In my opinion EV would be a poor choice.
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