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Old 08-09-2021, 06:55 AM   #81
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Whoa... I was agreeing with you on oil changes and radiators.... but an EV still has to have brakes. Brakes, tires, those are wear items for any vehicle...
Well, brakes aren't used much on an EV with regenerative braking. That is, if one drives it properly. I have 36k on my Chevy volt and can still see the machine Mark's on the rotors. Virtually zero pad wear. I use the regen paddle on the back of the steering wheel and drive in low for max regen.
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Old 08-09-2021, 07:12 AM   #82
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Good point, but brakes aren't used very often on BEVs. I've got mine set to maximum regen mode, so it's really one foot driving. I only use the brakes to hold the car to keep it from rolling when I'm stopped at a traffic light.
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Old 08-09-2021, 07:40 AM   #83
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So let's see, in the typical pedestal box, you have a 50 amp plug, a 30 amp plug, and a 20 amp plug. What does that add up to? Oh, that's right, 100 amps.
It would appear so to someone who doesn't know how electrical grids work.

What we are trying to do is plug in a trailer to a 50 amp outlet, and a BEV to a 50 amp outlet. Well, if the pedestal has a 50 amp outlet, you can plug one of them in. Not all of them do.

If you try to combine the 30 amp and the 20 amp outlets to get 50 amps, it will trip the GFCI on the 20 amp outlet, so you only have 30 amps available, and it is 120v, not the 120/240 of the 50 amp outlet, which cuts even that available power in half.

But wait, it gets worse. The campground does not run 3 separate sets of wires to the pedestal, one each for the 50 amp, 30 amp, and 20 amp outlets. It runs exactly one set of wires to the pedestal. Now, if they run 2g wire (what are the odds of them using expensive 2g wire?) with a 100 amp (what are the odds of them using an expensive 100 amp breaker?) breaker, you can, indeed, pull 50 amps, 30 amps, and 20 amps at the same time. But, as noted above, you can not combine the 20 amp and 30 amps to get 50 amps.

The most likely scenario (and the one I did when wiring my home pedestal with a 50/30/20) is that they run 6g wire, which is only good for up to 50 amps, and put a 50 amp breaker on there. So, if you try to pull more than 50 amps, the breaker in the main box will trip. So, no, the 50/30/20 amp pedestal will not give you 100 amps. It will give you the 50 amps the largest outlet is rated for, and no more.

And before anyone jumps on the 120/240v 50 amp outlet actually gives 100 amps, I know. But it would just confuse this issue. The issue discussed here is having two of the 50 amp outlets, or the equivalent thereof.
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Old 08-09-2021, 08:47 AM   #84
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A bit off topic, but I canít help thinking about the big elephant in the room issue with the huge taxes paid on fuels. A few years ago when prices jumped on gas a local gas station in the Dallas area posted the breakdown cost of a gallon of gas. It showed how high the tax rate was on gas and it really upset a lot of people who hadnít realized this fact. The State came in and made them remove it.

Now fast forward to just 20% of the people switch to electric only. That will be a major drop in tax revenue that pays for the roads. Therefore, I can see a metered charging station mandated by Congress in our homes and all of the charging stations. Enjoy those free changes while they last.

No doubt something is coming to replace the fuels we currently use. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out. It will take years to get charging stations in the remote areas I travel across the country the past few days. Therefore I canít see anything fit for towing the way I travel using 100% electric for years.
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Old 08-09-2021, 09:03 AM   #85
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We have towed with our Model X over 15k miles the last couple years. Usually try to keep towing days less than 250 miles (I'm in no rush). But have done days over 500 miles, including a 600+ mile day.

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Weíve been full timing since January and have been at zero campgrounds that will let you plug in an EV including a couple of higher end RV resorts. While we could get a 50amp circuit none had 100amp poles which youíd need if you want to run your trailer and charge.
Over 15K miles including cross country, up and down the East Coast, and over two months in Newfoundland (where there is essentially no EV charging infrastructure). We have yet to find a campground that hasn't let us plug in our Tesla. In fact the owners/hosts frequently are surprised we tow with a Tesla. They come over and ask about our rig, range, charging, etc.

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As far as NP campgrounds we have not seen any power. So imagine driving to Bryce, Yellowstone etc. even if you get there how you getting out?
We love NP campgrounds and boondocking in general. Have gone almost two weeks without electric hookups. We actually use our EV battery (~80x capacity of our house battery) to keep the house battery charged.

Our range is about 200 miles towing. So we can safely boondock 75 miles away from any supercharger. Seventy five miles out plus seventy file miles backs is one hundred fifty miles round trip. Safely within our range.

Below is a map showing 75 mile ranges circles from superchargers. Pretty much covers most of the country.

This doesn't even include third party chargers. So we'll go to the visitor center or nearby town and charge for a couple hours while hiking or touring. Not a full charge, but extends our ability to get back from boondocking if necessary.
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Old 08-09-2021, 09:07 AM   #86
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It would appear so to someone who doesn't know how electrical grids work.

What we are trying to do is plug in a trailer to a 50 amp outlet, and a BEV to a 50 amp outlet. Well, if the pedestal has a 50 amp outlet, you can plug one of them in. Not all of them do.

If you try to combine the 30 amp and the 20 amp outlets to get 50 amps, it will trip the GFCI on the 20 amp outlet, so you only have 30 amps available, and it is 120v, not the 120/240 of the 50 amp outlet, which cuts even that available power in half.

But wait, it gets worse. The campground does not run 3 separate sets of wires to the pedestal, one each for the 50 amp, 30 amp, and 20 amp outlets. It runs exactly one set of wires to the pedestal. Now, if they run 2g wire (what are the odds of them using expensive 2g wire?) with a 100 amp (what are the odds of them using an expensive 100 amp breaker?) breaker, you can, indeed, pull 50 amps, 30 amps, and 20 amps at the same time. But, as noted above, you can not combine the 20 amp and 30 amps to get 50 amps.

The most likely scenario (and the one I did when wiring my home pedestal with a 50/30/20) is that they run 6g wire, which is only good for up to 50 amps, and put a 50 amp breaker on there. So, if you try to pull more than 50 amps, the breaker in the main box will trip. So, no, the 50/30/20 amp pedestal will not give you 100 amps. It will give you the 50 amps the largest outlet is rated for, and no more.

And before anyone jumps on the 120/240v 50 amp outlet actually gives 100 amps, I know. But it would just confuse this issue. The issue discussed here is having two of the 50 amp outlets, or the equivalent thereof.
The problem here is that what is being imagined is a Level 3 charge point at every camping spot. Technically possible, but not economically. You would only use it for an hour or two. But if it was exclusively for your use, the usage charge would have to reflect that.

The Supercharger that I was stopped at yesterday had a nameplate that said 350 amp, 500 volt. It was installed and set for 250 kw. Tesla is now shipping V3 Superchargers in sets of four, 250 kw each, mounted on a common base, with a prewired 1 mW transformer.

What will happen at campgrounds is that these or similar chargers will be grouped in pods, not at every campsite.

But, some will say, I want a fast charger at my campsite! Try asking for a diesel pump at each campsite and see how that goes. All that a campsite requires is a low amp service for a vehicle, with a fast charger somewhere on the property.

And if we imagine larger tow vehicles with larger batteries, they will be using 1 mW chargers at truck stops, along with the semis.
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Old 08-09-2021, 09:14 AM   #87
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A bit off topic, but I canít help thinking about the big elephant in the room issue with the huge taxes paid on fuels. A few years ago when prices jumped on gas a local gas station in the Dallas area posted the breakdown cost of a gallon of gas. It showed how high the tax rate was on gas and it really upset a lot of people who hadnít realized this fact. The State came in and made them remove it.

Now fast forward to just 20% of the people switch to electric only. That will be a major drop in tax revenue that pays for the roads. Therefore, I can see a metered charging station mandated by Congress in our homes and all of the charging stations. Enjoy those free changes while they last.

No doubt something is coming to replace the fuels we currently use. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out. It will take years to get charging stations in the remote areas I travel across the country the past few days. Therefore I canít see anything fit for towing the way I travel using 100% electric for years.
We are already seeing loss of tax revenue due to reduced fuel sales. What is likely to replace it eventually is a road usage charge per mile, likely based on vehicle weight. That will be more equitable, as fuel consumption didnít relate well to wear on the roadway.

I donít think we will see BEVs restricted to metered chargers. We actually want people to charge at night when demand is down on the grid. We will see more time of day rates. That will impact home electricity rates as well.
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Old 08-09-2021, 09:30 AM   #88
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We have towed with our Model X over 15k miles the last couple years. Usually try to keep towing days less than 250 miles (I'm in no rush). But have done days over 500 miles, including a 600+ mile day.
(snip)
We love NP campgrounds and boondocking in general. Have gone almost two weeks without electric hookups. We actually use our EV battery (~80x capacity of our house battery) to keep the house battery charged.

Our range is about 200 miles towing. So we can safely boondock 75 miles away from any supercharger. Seventy five miles out plus seventy file miles backs is one hundred fifty miles round trip. Safely within our range.

Below is a map showing 75 mile ranges circles from superchargers. Pretty much covers most of the country.

This doesn't even include third party chargers. So we'll go to the visitor center or nearby town and charge for a couple hours while hiking or touring. Not a full charge, but extends our ability to get back from boondocking if necessary.

Not that I like them, but, I do end up w/ ~600-mile days... when that happens, I'm staying on the road, making ~10-minute pit stops, not sitting around waiting for a charge.

I'll admit: we don't camp/boondock with the intent of staying put. We go, drop the camper, then go do stuff in the area. Our camper is more of a portable hotel room for us, 'a home away from home', but not where we stay put for the trip, just a place to lay our head and have breakfast at...

I concur, your 75-mile radius makes sense for staying put; but when you don't... Which you address! You go on to mention using other charging stations: that would be the need for us, there'd have to be some nearby charging stations all around to ensure that once back to camp, we could pack up and get back to the supercharger.

I see benefits to, but I'm going to have to see the charge-times drastically cut before I can seriously consider such....
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Old 08-09-2021, 10:25 AM   #89
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We have towed with our Model X over 15k miles the last couple years. Usually try to keep towing days less than 250 miles (I'm in no rush). But have done days over 500 miles, including a 600+ mile day.



Over 15K miles including cross country, up and down the East Coast, and over two months in Newfoundland (where there is essentially no EV charging infrastructure). We have yet to find a campground that hasn't let us plug in our Tesla. In fact the owners/hosts frequently are surprised we tow with a Tesla. They come over and ask about our rig, range, charging, etc.



We love NP campgrounds and boondocking in general. Have gone almost two weeks without electric hookups. We actually use our EV battery (~80x capacity of our house battery) to keep the house battery charged.

Our range is about 200 miles towing. So we can safely boondock 75 miles away from any supercharger. Seventy five miles out plus seventy file miles backs is one hundred fifty miles round trip. Safely within our range.

Below is a map showing 75 mile ranges circles from superchargers. Pretty much covers most of the country.

This doesn't even include third party chargers. So we'll go to the visitor center or nearby town and charge for a couple hours while hiking or touring. Not a full charge, but extends our ability to get back from boondocking if necessary.
Thanks for sharing your first hand insight. Gives me hope for the largest variable of range will allow the CT to be a successful tow partner. With an anticipated battery capacity of 200kwh for the tri-motor, that will give it the best opportunity of any EV. Add in time and maturing charging infrastructure (Tesla, 3rd party, campgrounds), and the situation will only get better. In CA region, EVs, specifically Tesla's, can practically travel anywhere without concern already.

I'm particularly interested in the CT for some of its other characteristics. The covered 6.5ft bed is pretty unique in its functionality. Climate controlled, under bed storage, passthrough to cabin. I tend to mix RV camping with car camping as I like Overland travel beyond my RV base camp. That enables sleeping in the bed. The CT also has a large frunk storage. Seating for 6. Another huge benefit of EVs in general is the immense storage and room because of the flat floor architecture. 35" tires for real off-road capability and clearance. Then the integrated solar on the bed which could augment range, RV, or car camping, along with CTs high power 240V outlet (that never requires a gas engine to fire up).
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Old 08-09-2021, 11:55 AM   #90
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A bit off topic, but I canít help thinking about the big elephant in the room issue with the huge taxes paid on fuels. A few years ago when prices jumped on gas a local gas station in the Dallas area posted the breakdown cost of a gallon of gas. It showed how high the tax rate was on gas and it really upset a lot of people who hadnít realized this fact. The State came in and made them remove it.

Now fast forward to just 20% of the people switch to electric only. That will be a major drop in tax revenue that pays for the roads. Therefore, I can see a metered charging station mandated by Congress in our homes and all of the charging stations. Enjoy those free changes while they last.

No doubt something is coming to replace the fuels we currently use. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out. It will take years to get charging stations in the remote areas I travel across the country the past few days. Therefore I canít see anything fit for towing the way I travel using 100% electric for years.
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We are already seeing loss of tax revenue due to reduced fuel sales. What is likely to replace it eventually is a road usage charge per mile, likely based on vehicle weight. That will be more equitable, as fuel consumption didnít relate well to wear on the roadway.

I donít think we will see BEVs restricted to metered chargers. We actually want people to charge at night when demand is down on the grid. We will see more time of day rates. That will impact home electricity rates as well.
I wasnít familiar with the details of your US federal fuel tax, but I looked it up and found it interesting. $0.18 per gallon, unchanged since 1993, and effectively reduced by 77% inflation since then. State fuel taxes add to that. It seems that fuel taxes will need to increase significantly in any case, partly to replace the lost revenue, and partly to incent the planned shift away from ICE vehicle use.
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Old 08-09-2021, 12:00 PM   #91
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I wasnít familiar with the details of your US federal fuel tax, but I looked it up and found it interesting. $0.18 per gallon, unchanged since 1993, and effectively reduced by 77% inflation since then. State fuel taxes add to that. It seems that fuel taxes will need to increase significantly in any case, partly to replace the lost revenue, and partly to incent the planned shift away from ICE vehicle use.

There's been occasional attempts as such (usually the local/state levels), accompanied by enough shouts/threats by the voting constituents, that politicians have resigned themselves to not raising gas taxes, at least in any significant way.

What is going to have to occur is a shift from a fuel tax to a mileage tax. Some states have already begun toying w/ such. It's what would be fair, those that put mileage on the roads as the ones paying a more significant cost, versus those that don't use those roads. Again, though, the problem is, many jurisdictions/states, such won't ever be approved by voters.
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Old 08-09-2021, 12:02 PM   #92
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My inventor/scientist friend has been screaming for Thorium reactors for years.
The byproducts are not as radioactive as Uranium reactors, and the material uses molten salt instead of water. The byproducts can't be weaponized.
(Don't ask me to explain)
He thinks California needs to realize that switching everyone to electric vehicles while not building new power plants and counting on wind and solar is a fool's errand.
I saw where one of California's hydro plants was off line because of low water in the reservoir.
https://www.abc10.com/article/news/l...7-09572445aa85


But a few years ago, Lake Oroville was intentionally lowered due to heavy snowfall and rain, fearing dam failure.

California needs to look at the big picture.

Breeder reactors are by far the way to go IMHO, but way back when Rickover became the go to nuclear guy- he fell in love with the light water reactor, which for the Navy was prob well justified, but for landlovers, breeder should have been the way to go. If Chernobyl or Fukushima been breeder reactors like your friend had told you about, the landscape of these areas would not be what they are today. On Amazon Prime there is/was a great documentary called Pandora's Promise..highly recommend. We've had breeder technology since 1951.

I agree, conservation, efficiency, wind, solar and hydro cannot do it alone. Some flavor or nuclear is gonna have to be a part of that equation, too bad the breeder reactor got shot down because of politics. As I type this one entire twin light water reactor plant's full removal was just completed in the Chicago area and another is about to start near Green Bay. With only a handful of new capacity built since Three Mile Island and demand surging, I would have to agree, throwing millions of EVs at a grid that is woefully overtaxed isn't going to end well without new generation with sober sets of eyes on it. We've been kicking the can down the street for far too long.

Of course the golden goose, nuclear fusion could be many, many decades away, which makes the breeder just that much more appealing vs light water reactors.
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Old 08-09-2021, 12:45 PM   #93
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Of course the golden goose, nuclear fusion could be many, many decades away, which makes the breeder just that much more appealing vs light water reactors.
Nah, the fusion revolution is only ď10 to 20Ē years away, tops. How do I know this? I learned this back in high school physics back in the late 70s.
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Old 08-09-2021, 05:14 PM   #94
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Whoa... I was agreeing with you on oil changes and radiators.... but an EV still has to have brakes. Brakes, tires, those are wear items for any vehicle...
I drove every day last week including a 200 mile round trip to Atlanta and back and never once touched my brake pedal. Regenerative braking is amazing...should get 100,000 to 150,000 miles out of brake linings...
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Old 08-09-2021, 05:43 PM   #95
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I drove every day last week including a 200 mile round trip to Atlanta and back and never once touched my brake pedal. Regenerative braking is amazing...should get 100,000 to 150,000 miles out of brake linings...
A model S was recently examined and reported on in the news after 400,000 km. Original brake pads had lots of life left.

I expect to change the brake fluid, and there is a service item about lubing the brake slides. The brakes get so little use that they can stick.
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Old 08-09-2021, 05:47 PM   #96
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I wasnít familiar with the details of your US federal fuel tax, but I looked it up and found it interesting. $0.18 per gallon, unchanged since 1993, and effectively reduced by 77% inflation since then. State fuel taxes add to that. It seems that fuel taxes will need to increase significantly in any case, partly to replace the lost revenue, and partly to incent the planned shift away from ICE vehicle use.
That is because it is the city, county and state taxes that make up the bulk of the gas tax rate.
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Old 08-09-2021, 08:31 PM   #97
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The problem here is that what is being imagined is a Level 3 charge point at every camping spot. Technically possible, but not economically.
You're talking "imagined." I'm talking existing. If we are going to talk "imagined" we may as well imagine cold fusion reactors in every car. I am addressing the problem that exists today. Not 5 or 10 years from now.
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Old 08-09-2021, 09:06 PM   #98
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Maybe someone can explain why heavy regenerative braking when your foot is lifted from the throttle is more efficient than allowing the vehicle to coast and maintain it's momentum. It depends on the specific electric motor and controller, but in general only about 70% of the kinetic energy lost under deceleration is recouped by the regenerative system. Additionally, further losses are incurred under acceleration since the drive process isn't 100% efficient either. All that lost energy slowing down and speeding up again; seems much more efficient to coast or "sail" as much as possible.

Porsche and Audi seem to agree as regeneration in my Taycan or my wife's e-Tron only occurs when the brake pedal is engaged or under certain specific conditions. Personally, I much prefer this approach as driving the vehicle feels much more natural to me; I expect a car to slow down significantly when I use the brakes, not when I take my foot off the accelerator. This is particularly relevant for me in spirited driving. FWIW, we had a BMW i3 that had heavy regenerative braking that couldn't be disabled and it always felt like driving an oversized golf cart. One foot driving isn't my cup of tea.

OT, I know, but there were a few posts about not having to use EV brakes so I thought I'd throw in my $.02.
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Old 08-09-2021, 09:48 PM   #99
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You're talking "imagined." I'm talking existing. If we are going to talk "imagined" we may as well imagine cold fusion reactors in every car. I am addressing the problem that exists today. Not 5 or 10 years from now.
Let me rephrase. Your description of the challenges with wiring a level 2 charger to each campsite are only an issue if you imagine that every campsite needs a fast charger. It doesnít. Every campground does, not every campsite.

We only stay at hotels with at least level 2 chargers. But we expect a few of them in the parking lot, not one for every room.
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Old 08-09-2021, 09:53 PM   #100
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Maybe someone can explain why heavy regenerative braking when your foot is lifted from the throttle is more efficient than allowing the vehicle to coast and maintain it's momentum. It depends on the specific electric motor and controller, but in general only about 70% of the kinetic energy lost under deceleration is recouped by the regenerative system. Additionally, further losses are incurred under acceleration since the drive process isn't 100% efficient either. All that lost energy slowing down and speeding up again; seems much more efficient to coast or "sail" as much as possible.

Porsche and Audi seem to agree as regeneration in my Taycan or my wife's e-Tron only occurs when the brake pedal is engaged or under certain specific conditions. Personally, I much prefer this approach as driving the vehicle feels much more natural to me; I expect a car to slow down significantly when I use the brakes, not when I take my foot off the accelerator. This is particularly relevant for me in spirited driving. FWIW, we had a BMW i3 that had heavy regenerative braking that couldn't be disabled and it always felt like driving an oversized golf cart. One foot driving isn't my cup of tea.

OT, I know, but there were a few posts about not having to use EV brakes so I thought I'd throw in my $.02.
You're not wrong. It's more efficient to conserve kinetic energy and let the car "sail", than it is to regen and accept the losses in energy translation. At the same time, it is always more efficient to regen than it is to sink the energy into brake pads that is surely wasted.

Skilled single pedal drivers can milk efficiency from both control methodologies. Unskilled drivers will reap more efficiency benefits from regen than deploying friction brakes.

Subjective preferences are an odd thing. Nothing wrong with preferences, but it's perhaps an artificial constraint. If one accepts for example that manual trannies are awesome, more would be motivated to learn, and perhaps even enjoy it. Same with single pedal driving or the new yoke steering wheels. Or the transition from tactile Blackberries to complete touchscreens. It's a journey that many of us have gone through, and we're all capable of adapting.

That said, there's solid objective reasons. Single pedal driving has technical advantages in that there's no superfluous engineering or components to blend regen and physical brakes. That's a technically difficult thing to tailor for feel consistently and seamlessly across the spectrum of variables, in a way that doesn't feel artificial. Elon's engineering teams focus hard on first principles and this is why they have compounding advantages in efficiencies, manufacturing, and costs. They are not bound by the legacy ways of doing things. After driving 1k miles this past weekend, my foot finds it refreshing not to have to do gas/brake dance.

I find no problem transitioning daily between different cars, from the most raw analogue manuals, to this Tesla future. They are all satisfying in their own way and I relish learning to use each one to their fullest. Take the time to adapt and you may even soon enjoy it.
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