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Old 08-07-2021, 04:47 PM   #41
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50 amp service works

Though I agree that you can't hardly beat a diesel heavy duty pickup for towing an AS, I still am looking forward to my cyber truck. I'm not sure if will replace my 2020 RAM diesel, after all, these guys have been perfecting their tow vehicle for 100 years!

But a CT would happily pull an AS. And it would look so cool... Stainless and aluminum sharing the road! But why not charge your CT with your 50 amp service? Probably could not run your A/C at the same time, but you can certainly keep all the lights and other 20 amp service running in your AS while charging. The CT has 20 amp external plug built in.
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Old 08-07-2021, 05:22 PM   #42
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Philosophy vs. facts

Until the cybertruck ships and we get all the marketing hype replaced with ground truth, this entire debate is confined to the realm of theory and theology.

What we need are facts, not specs, real world anecdotes to leaven the lab results and enough units in use to put into context the actual performance envelope. Even today, with all the ICE vehicles on the road, we still say, YMMV.

The future is evolving. The lack of enough charging stations on the road today is perhaps as irrelevant as explaining to someone from 1975 that the dismantling of the public phone booth system everywhere from airports to corner stations is a non-issue in today's world (except, perhaps, for a few individuals in extenuating circumstances)

The early adopters always pay a premium for a product effectively still in beta for the privilege of and bragging rights to being first. All the minutia will work itself out over time.
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Old 08-07-2021, 05:35 PM   #43
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The future is evolving. The lack of enough charging stations on the road today is perhaps as irrelevant as explaining to someone from 1975 that the dismantling of the public phone booth system everywhere from airports to corner stations is a non-issue in today's world (except, perhaps, for a few individuals in extenuating circumstances)
As a telecom engineer I love that analogy. The telecommunications industry evolved in ways that could barely have been imagined when I started, except in science fiction.
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Old 08-07-2021, 06:32 PM   #44
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Daimler's taking a hard look at hydrogen.
https://www.daimler.com/innovation/c...omobility.html
They need to watch that movie "Chain Reaction" with Keanu Reeves:



There is a good reason why hydrogen isn't a goto...recalling their car quality, I'd say it's a hard pass.
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Old 08-07-2021, 06:50 PM   #45
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I think the limiting factors are still battery tech, charger tech, and charger infrastructure. The home chargers that most people buy are Level 2 chargers, requiring a 240V dedicated circuit. Mine is a 50A circuit, but my charger limits it to 7.6 kW when charging. This allows me to charge my 90 kWh battery in 6 - 8 hours, depending on the state of charge.

The Tesla cyber trucks will have a 200 kWh battery. Charging this beast of a battery at home will take a while. At this point, Level 3 DC rapid chargers are impractical and cost prohibitive for home use. Hopefully that will change, but we aren’t there yet. Additionally, the network isn’t built up sufficiently, especially in rural areas. The Electrify America network is rapidly building at Walmart Super centers, and they currently offer DC rapid charging up to 350 kW. This is great to see, but we simply need more of them for the Cyber truck to be practical as a tow vehicle.

We’ll get there, sooner than many people think. We just aren’t quite there yet.
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Old 08-07-2021, 07:21 PM   #46
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I just want to know what campground do you know that has any charging infrastructure? Were happy to get power let alone what you need for an EV.
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Old 08-07-2021, 07:24 PM   #47
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We’ll get there, sooner than many people think. We just aren’t quite there yet.
For towing, I agree completely. We’ll get there. For larger Airstreams, I don’t think they will look like current pickups, but we’ll get there.

For other than towing applications, there are lessons to be had from around the world on adoption rates. Where I live, we just passed 10% BEV for new sales, province wide. Our city is ahead of that. California is close to that. Norway has passed 50%. Exponential growth is like that, it catches you out.

For towing larger Airstream trailers, it will take a little longer. But the move away from ICE vehicles is happening, and the only debate point is timing.

I think the 2030 pronouncements by manufacturers on market share of BEVs are irrelevant. If they wait until then they will be out of business. Sure, you could buy the last diesel pickup that is eventually made, but why would you? Just run the one you have. It will get more expensive to operate, and fuelling will be less convenient over time, but if it is paid for, just run it out.
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Old 08-07-2021, 07:30 PM   #48
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I just want to know what campground do you know that has any charging infrastructure? We’re happy to get power let alone what you need for an EV.
Home vehicle charging, level 2, is typically 30 amp 240 volt. 8 hour charge from empty. Not a huge leap from current campground electrical services. Over a year ago we stopped patronizing any hotel that doesn’t offer level 2 vehicle charging. We just filter the listing on booking.com. It is the price of admission. Just like free wi-fi was several years ago. I expect campgrounds will follow with vehicle charging. Or close.
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Old 08-07-2021, 08:31 PM   #49
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Dont forget the potential to have electric motor assist in trailers. I know most of us saw that article last year, and if trailers start to be made with enough assist to offset 50% or more of the energy required to tow them (plus regen brakes??) then most of the range issues will become moot. Solar recharging in the trailer, campground recharging for the truck. Not far from viable.
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Old 08-07-2021, 09:43 PM   #50
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The first Supercharger just outside Banff National Park (in Canmore) had 4 stalls, back in. The second Supercharger in Canmore (first photo) with 8 stalls, 250 kw, V3, just opened, a block down the street. The charging bays are on a centre island. The two end chargers can be accessed as pull throughs. They were on the right track. Then somebody decided to put a fire hydrant at one end. There was still a Tesla with a trailer using it when we were there, but he stayed with his vehicle.

The latest photos from Tesla show pull throughs, and a Tesla restaurant. Change is coming.
Nice. That second picture you have is of the Kettleman City Supercharger in central California. I was just there this afternoon. 40 charging stations of the V3 variety. There is some pull through stations, if perhaps a bit tight.

Funny so many comments assuming what driving EVs is like. Including so many that are frankly wrong and outdated.

I just did 1k miles last weekend. 500 miles miles today, and another 500 miles tomorrow. In my wife's Model 3. As a glimpse of what the future of EV road trips might look like... On the 5 Fwy here, which is Tesla's home region, the charging stations are spaced at pretty tight intervals. EV travel is blissful, fast, and convenient. Taking barely more time than gas. Instead of stopping at a single stop for a longer lunch, we stop at a couple charge stations for 20-30 minutes, eat, stretch, and relax. Many stations to choose from and we'll run it down to 5-10% charge to maximize charge speed. Autopilot makes long distance travel effortless.

There's no turning back to ICE cars after owning an EV. I've had an EV or other going on 10 yrs now. I have a 3-motor CT on order. It may or may not completely replace my tow vehicle depending on how things go. Heck, I may even replace my 911 Turbo with an EV. The sheer ease, convenience, and performance, can't be beat. Instantaneous power and torque is ridiculous and without a transmission, mountains don't even feel like they're there. Torque and HP is becoming quickly synonymous with - EV.
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Old 08-07-2021, 11:20 PM   #51
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There's no turning back to ICE cars after owning an EV. I've had an EV or other going on 10 yrs now. I have a 3-motor CT on order. It may or may not completely replace my tow vehicle depending on how things go. Heck, I may even replace my 911 Turbo with an EV. The sheer ease, convenience, and performance, can't be beat. Instantaneous power and torque is ridiculous and without a transmission, mountains don't even feel like they're there. Torque and HP is becoming quickly synonymous with - EV.
Funny you should mention that. I DID replace my GT3 with a Taycan 4S. No regrets.
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Old 08-08-2021, 03:09 AM   #52
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I think that the range difference of a gasoline powered vehicle in highway driving, not towing to towing, is a good proxy for the range difference when towing with an EV.

The major energy requirement in highway driving comes from aerodynamic drag. Weight is a minor factor.

An example: our Volvo V70 gets about 26-28 mpg not towing. It does about 15 towing our 22FB; it got about 13.5 to 14 towing the old 27 Overlander. This is about a 50% reduction, starting with a relatively aerodynamic car.

Since a truck punches a much bigger hole in the air to begin with, the drop in economy is less - 35%? 18 mpg down to 12 seems about right to me, for a gasoline engine pickup.

We know from Can Ams Model 3 experiment that range while towing is about 100 miles, down from about 200 miles real world range.

While the Cyber Truck will have better aerodynamics than most, Id expect to see about a 40% range reduction when towing an Airstream at about 60-65 mph. If real world range is 400 miles, towing range might be about 240.

For many people that could work very well, especially if theres a place to charge at the destination. I see a lot of RVs that never travel that far from home.

For long distance travel that is planned around Supercharger locations, that would mean one stop in the middle of a driving day. I know from experience that 500 miles a day is lots when towing.
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Old 08-08-2021, 04:51 AM   #53
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I just want to know what campground do you know that has any charging infrastructure? Were happy to get power let alone what you need for an EV.
Most all of the RV Parks have 50a service, just like my home charging plug. Just need to bring your charger along.
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Old 08-08-2021, 06:55 AM   #54
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Most all of the RV Parks have 50a service, just like my home charging plug. Just need to bring your charger along.
My wife was watching this as we traveled across the northern United States. A lot of campgrounds state that you cannot charge an electric vehicle in the campground. I know this will change as campgrounds make changes to accommodate EVs, but most campgrounds have old wiring and cannot upgrade without significant improvements. It will happen, but not quickly.

We met a couple in the Wisconsin Dells area and they were pulling a Tesla with their class A. They ask the campground if they could charge on the open spot next to them and they were allowed for a $10 Fee.

A Cybertruck with a large battery will take twice as long to charge on a 50 amp pedestal as our Model III does from our 50 amp charger in our garage. That may not sound as bad as you think! Our Tesla charges fully from a depleted state in about 8-9 hours. If one averages 200 miles a day as we do, you arrive at the campground at 2:00-3:00 pm (we take our time!). That will give you 18 hours of charging time to leave the next morning by 9:00 am. If you've hit a Supercharger sometime in the day, you need even less. It could be managed.
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Old 08-08-2021, 08:06 AM   #55
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Heck, I may even replace my 911 Turbo with an EV. The sheer ease, convenience, and performance, can't be beat.
Funny that you say this, as I was thinking about it yesterday when I took my 911 turbo cabriolet out for a drive. I dont think Im ready to replace the 911 with an EV. Rumor has it that the 2nd generation of the 992 cars will feature a hybrid electric boost system, but I dont anticipate a fully electric 911 in this generation.

Id consider a fully electric 911 cabriolet sometime in the future, but Id sure miss the sound of the Porsche flat six engine!
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Old 08-08-2021, 08:29 AM   #56
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I will consider buying the cyber truck when Tesla stops making it look butt ugly.
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Old 08-08-2021, 08:41 AM   #57
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This community shares more in common than just Airstreams! Enjoyed the comments with similar Porsche interests. I don't think I'll (ever?) sell it as it's an exciting period experience that can't be bought new anymore. EVs will only continue to get better. As well as the charging infrastructure.

If the CT delivers with 500 mile range, I do have hope it could be a successful tow vehicle. My current tow vehicle with an aux tank gives me 500 miles range unladen, and 300 miles towing. I tend to agree with AlbertF that a larger CT EV may see porportionally less impact than the current passenger car EVs. If it can deliver 250-300 miles towing range (something I'm very familiar and comfortable with in my current TV), that's something that I can make work.

For majority of tow days less than 250 miles, there may not even be any stop at a public station. Home and destination chargers (aka full hookup campgrounds) may provide all the charging necessary. Starting most everyday topped off without any inconvenience to re-fuel would be nice.

For longer tow days, if the supercharger infrastructure is there, it may be the same 1 or 2 stops for 400-500 miles. I don't usually find myself doing more than that on a single day. And any breaks for charging are much appreciated, doubling as bio and self recharge sessions. Supercharging works with aplomb these days, combined with nice bathroom and beverage services.

Performance... Belching diesels and high revving gassers need not apply. There will be unmatched capability here. Power always underfoot. No transmission or gears to concern yourself with. Perfect regen motor? braking. Perhaps even autopilot when towing? The mental load reduction will be tremendous. Allowing possibly longer travel days? I'm interested to see this brave new world, if current EVs are any indication.
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Old 08-08-2021, 08:50 AM   #58
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The interesting thing is that if you are worried about paying $10,000 for full self-driving, you don't need it! The standard advanced driving works perfectly well on highways and freeways. Our Model 3 from 2018 has the old computer but with the updates, we've gotten (they seem to come every 2 weeks!), it performs flawlessly on freeways. Full self-driving is for the city and county streets with stop lights, stop signs, and pedestrians.

There, I just saved you ten grand!
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Old 08-08-2021, 10:54 AM   #59
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Id consider a fully electric 911 cabriolet sometime in the future, but Id sure miss the sound of the Porsche flat six engine!
The sound of my GT3 running through the gears to a 9K RPM redline is something I definitely DO miss! But, for many reasons that I won't bother anyone with in this thread, it was time to make the move to a BEV Porsche.

At present, for me, there is no realistic alternative to an ICE tow vehicle, especially since the vast majority of our trips are to more remote boondocking locations where there is little to no opportunity to recharge an EV at the destination point. If this were to change in the future, and the right electric TV was available, I'd be tempted.

OTOH, there is another consideration. There are scenarios, not necessarily restricted to camping, where an electric vehicle would not be optimal. Our two BEV's meet over 90% of our transportation needs, but for the other <10% having one ICE vehicle as a backup seems prudent for the foreseeable future.
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Old 08-08-2021, 11:01 AM   #60
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Stopping at Keattleman Superchargers this morning and took better stock of the pull throughs. They have 4 stations with that configuration here, with total length about 38'. It would require a pretty sharp right angle turn into, and right angle turn to exit. Probably wouldn't be ideal for a trailer truthfully. Not likely workable for anything longer than 20', or any wide-body AS, as it's a somewhat narrow stall. Though the CT will come with rear steer making it much maneuverable than trucks today.

I imagine Tesla will be coming out with different pull though stalls in the future as these would just be asking for trailer / charger contact sports.

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Agree with you turk123 that autopilot fills 80% of needs. FSD is all together a different animal, likely more for point to point commuting use.
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