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Old 08-07-2021, 11:32 AM   #21
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I am not familiar with Tesla's air conditioning and heating systems. How does running these systems change battery life? I think Tesla's mileage claims are based on a nice weather day on flat level ground. I wonder how it will do pulling hills where it must also overcome the forces of gravity trying to pull it backwards. I'll be curious to see a real world towing test.
I have always been a fan of hydrogen fuel cell technology. The only byproduct is water vapor.
TFL trucks on YouTube do a lot of tests with various vehicles and also electric vehicles. All of the scenarios you mention reduce EV range. Off-roading, driving up hill, towing a trailer, all significantly impact EV range. They tested the new Jeep full hybrid off-road and only got an electric range of a little over 3 miles. The hybrid full electric range is listed as 18 - 20 miles. So even off roading kills battery power. You also don't find many high capacity charging stations above 12000 feet.
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Old 08-07-2021, 11:57 AM   #22
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I am not familiar with Tesla's air conditioning and heating systems. How does running these systems change battery life? I think Tesla's mileage claims are based on a nice weather day on flat level ground. I wonder how it will do pulling hills where it must also overcome the forces of gravity trying to pull it backwards. I'll be curious to see a real world towing test.
I have always been a fan of hydrogen fuel cell technology. The only byproduct is water vapor.
The latest Tesla vehicles, including our Model Y, use heat pumps. These are more efficient than earlier systems. It is also really nice to have the cabin preconditioned on hot or cold days, including inside an unheated garage; it just takes a few minutes. It can be set to function automatically when you program a departure time into the vehicle charger.

We lost some range when in very cold weather, but given that the cabin was preconditioned and the battery was heated prior to departure (while plugged in) it wasn't bad. I don't recall the exact figure. We were in ambient temperatures down to -25C or so. What we found on a very hot day was a more severe impact on range. We don't usually get that hot here, but we were in 45C - 48C on a recent trip through the BC interior (118 F, I had to look it up). We were budgeting to take off 100 km of our 500+ km range. The heat pump kept up with it, which surprised us, but it did have an impact. There are seven supercharger sites on our route through the Rockies, and we typically need to use just one or two of them, and can decide which ones to use, so it wasn't critical. It will matter more when towing with reduced range.

As to hills, we find that we recover on the descent what it costs us in range on the ascent. That shouldn't change with towing.
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Old 08-07-2021, 12:00 PM   #23
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Here is a good look at BEV range issues, including when loaded, and when towing. Worth watching.

It is important to understand the differences between ICE and BE vehicles in terms of range impact.

https://insideevs.com/news/522266/el...wing-analyzed/

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Old 08-07-2021, 12:15 PM   #24
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The latest Tesla vehicles, including our Model Y, use heat pumps. These are more efficient than earlier systems. It is also really nice to have the cabin preconditioned on hot or cold days, including inside an unheated garage; it just takes a few minutes. It can be set to function automatically when you program a departure time into the vehicle charger.

We lost some range when in very cold weather, but given that the cabin was preconditioned and the battery was heated prior to departure (while plugged in) it wasn't bad. I don't recall the exact figure. We were in ambient temperatures down to -25C or so. What we found on a very hot day was a more severe impact on range. We don't usually get that hot here, but we were in 45C - 48C on a recent trip through the BC interior (118 F, I had to look it up). We were budgeting to take off 100 km of our 500+ km range. The heat pump kept up with it, which surprised us, but it did have an impact. There are seven supercharger sites on our route through the Rockies, and we typically need to use just one or two of them, and can decide which ones to use, so it wasn't critical. It will matter more when towing with reduced range.

As to hills, we find that we recover on the descent what it costs us in range on the ascent. That shouldn't change with towing.

Thanks for your real-world experience with your model Y. Even gas & diesel range can drop by 1/3 to 1/2 when towing, so re-gen can close the gap a bit.
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Old 08-07-2021, 12:21 PM   #25
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I think that the Tesla CT will make sense for towing, including heavier trailers, but not larger/heavier Airstreams. It will be able to handle the weight, and could tolerate the very high aerodynamic drag, but not for long distances. It would make sense for towing a flat deck equipment trailer for a small contractor or landscaper; for a person towing a larger/heavier boat to the nearest launch ramp; and for smaller/lower profile expedition type trailers for boondocking.

There is a lot of factory being built in Austin for something that some are calling vaporware. Here is just one vlog documenting it.

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Old 08-07-2021, 12:25 PM   #26
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And if 50% of new vehicle production is to be electric by 2030 per automakers non-binding agreement this week, plan on hours-long waits at charging stations, even if millions of new stations can be built in the interim. The grid will not sustain this, and wind and solar simply won’t do the job. Not in my lifetime anyway.
In general, you make a fair point and that will be an issue going forward with BEV's, although excess grid capacity does exist during off hours.

An alternative to the grid and public charging is distributed power sources like home solar and batteries. I charge my 2 BEV's 100% from my solar/battery array; haven't paid a penny for electricity in 2 years. In fact, the utility company sends me a yearly check. Also, although of course it depends on how one uses their BEV, I've never actually charged at a public charging station.

Anyway, to get back to the topic at hand, none of this addresses the issue of range and charging a BEV tow vehicle on the road, which will continue to be a problem for the foreseeable future.
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Old 08-07-2021, 12:35 PM   #27
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And if 50% of new vehicle production is to be electric by 2030 per automakers non-binding agreement this week, plan on hours-long waits at charging stations, even if millions of new stations can be built in the interim. The grid will not sustain this, and wind and solar simply won’t do the job. Not in my lifetime anyway.
Yes, changes to the grid (and distributed generation) will be required. But the impacts of the coming shift to BEVs won't be limited to lineups at charging stations.

Utility electricity rates will go up. Not just for BEVs, but for home consumption as well. That will hit those areas that rely on grid power for AC in summer, and other higher consumption users.

Off peak electricity rates will become more common. That should lead to smarter choices about when we consume grid power. That will impact other than BEVs.

More grid interconnectivity will be needed. That means changes to current operating practices of some grids that operate relatively independently today.

Lots of changes coming. Those that think those changes will just impact BEV owners may want to start planning.
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Old 08-07-2021, 12:42 PM   #28
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The story goes that right after Kent State, all the toilets on a similar campus were flushed simultaneously, collapsing the water and sewer system of that college town. The idea that all vehicles would charge at the same time is kind of yhe same thing.
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Old 08-07-2021, 12:46 PM   #29
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History repeats itself:


Horse -vs- cars -vs- gas -vs- electric.


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Old 08-07-2021, 12:52 PM   #30
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The story goes that right after Kent State, all the toilets on a similar campus were flushed simultaneously, collapsing the water and sewer system of that college town. The idea that all vehicles would charge at the same time is kind of yhe same thing.
On a smaller scale, vehicle chargers are already interconnected and manage peak loads. Up through V2, Tesla superchargers rated at 150 kw drop to 70 kw if there are simultaneous users on two paired chargers. That has changed with the V3 chargers, which are rated 250 kw, and have larger transformers. Essentially, they had to upgrade the distribution design, and they did so. We should expect this to happen throughout the grid.

In our strata complex, 154 BEV charging points for owners have just been been wired. Smart chargers communicate with a central server in the complex, to monitor loads. We want to avoid high demand charges, eg peak rate premiums.

Utilities will have a big incentive to offer lower cost rates for overnight charging, to avoid or delay doing grid upgrades.

But yes, the grid system will have to change. Just like the fuel delivery system did as ICE vehicles became popular a century ago.
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Old 08-07-2021, 12:56 PM   #31
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Tesla Cybertruck will tow 14,000 lbs -- did you order one yet?

A very reliable inside source has said that Rivian is getting 60% range when towing. If we assume 50-60% is going to be achievable, especially with our more aerodynamic trailers, then 250-300 miles on a full charge may be real. (Very much a possibility with my 22’ Sport. Less so with a 33’ Classic)

The configuration of supercharger is a big problem unless they begin to add pull through ones.

My tri-motor is on order. I won’t be close to first in line, but wouldn’t hesitate to be number 100,000 if the reports come back positive from initial deliveries.
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Old 08-07-2021, 01:09 PM   #32
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The configuration of supercharger is a big problem unless they begin to add pull through ones.

That definitely has to be overcome.
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Old 08-07-2021, 01:25 PM   #33
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That definitely has to be overcome.
The first Supercharger just outside Banff National Park (in Canmore) had 4 stalls, back in. The second Supercharger in Canmore (first photo) with 8 stalls, 250 kw, V3, just opened, a block down the street. The charging bays are on a centre island. The two end chargers can be accessed as pull throughs. They were on the right track. Then somebody decided to put a fire hydrant at one end. There was still a Tesla with a trailer using it when we were there, but he stayed with his vehicle.

The latest photos from Tesla show pull throughs, and a Tesla restaurant. Change is coming.
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Old 08-07-2021, 01:27 PM   #34
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Pioneers for sure will continue to argue the value, even though not practical for towing an AS or SOB on long trips, IMHO...not there for a long while..read only 1/3rd early EV owners have continued with an EV due to the inconvinience. Few more years...just being cool is not practical vs enjoying long trips with the AS. *IMHO, of course!)
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Old 08-07-2021, 01:46 PM   #35
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..read only 1/3rd early EV owners have continued with an EV due to the inconvinience. Few more years...just being cool is not practical vs enjoying long trips with the AS. *IMHO, of course!)


Have a link for that tidbit? …most folks I know find a Tesla more convenient (not less). Charging at home is a game changer.
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Old 08-07-2021, 01:52 PM   #36
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In my research for ideal towing situations I came across this unique solution from an interesting guy in Texas who builds a device that is between the toad and the trailer -- ideally for a 5th wheel. Supposedly it costs maybe $7,500 or more, but you wouldn't have to trade-in your insufficient truck or SUV and buy another powerful vehicle as long as you had this clever gizmo between you and the trailer:

https://www.safetytowingsystems.com/

In regards to the Cybertruck and charging it with a big Airstream behind you -- if you had this guy's Towing System, you merely unhook from it, drive over to the charging station and charge the CT. Then hook it back up -- apparently one could connect or disconnect fairly easily. Watch the videos at the website.

Here's more explanation of the Tesla Cybertruck and it's lack of side mirrors. Elon wants the CT to float too just like James Bond did in a movie with an Italian sportscar.
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Old 08-07-2021, 01:55 PM   #37
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Pioneers for sure will continue to argue the value, even though not practical for towing an AS or SOB on long trips, IMHO...not there for a long while..read only 1/3rd early EV owners have continued with an EV due to the inconvinience. Few more years...just being cool is not practical vs enjoying long trips with the AS. *IMHO, of course!)

Probably old statistics predating Tesla. That would be my guess.
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Old 08-07-2021, 02:04 PM   #38
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Probably old statistics predating Tesla. That would be my guess.
https://thehill.com/changing-america...nt-of-electric

The biggest reason was the inconvenience of charging:

“The electric car can receive a "full tank of gas" in less than two hours at home in practice. The problem stems from most homes in California not being optimized for charging the cars. Another problem is not having a parking spot or no parking with access to charging. For those living in apartments, managing an EV can be a challenge.”
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Old 08-07-2021, 02:48 PM   #39
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https://thehill.com/changing-america...nt-of-electric

The biggest reason was the inconvenience of charging:

“The electric car can receive a "full tank of gas" in less than two hours at home in practice. The problem stems from most homes in California not being optimized for charging the cars. Another problem is not having a parking spot or no parking with access to charging. For those living in apartments, managing an EV can be a challenge.”
Interesting article, thanks. The study quoted in the article does say, however, that about 20% of BEV owners have given up on electrics, not the approximately 66% suggested in a previous post.
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Old 08-07-2021, 03:03 PM   #40
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That report was based on data from 2012 to 2019 IIRC. Lots of early tech in that sample

Tesla is running at 91% brand loyalty this year (Forbes) and keeps winning the CR owner satisfaction award, four or five years straight now. I don’t think many Tesla owners are going back.
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