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Old 08-18-2021, 09:18 AM   #61
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Or that Tesla is running a race they don't really feel is worth their full attention.

I've owned Porsches and been a member of the Porsche Club of America for almost 40 years. Although there may be a few exceptions, the last thing the typical Porsche owner is interested in is a Porsche that drives itself. Show up at a Porsche track, concours or even cars and coffee event and start hyping software superiority and self driving and you'd get some very strange looks.

Porsche knows it's customer just as Tesla knows theirs and they are each determined to give those customers what they want. Tesla's focus is on software, technology and selling hundreds of thousands of cars. The driving experience is secondary. Porsche embraces technology and electric propulsion too, but it's primary mission is to build relatively fewer cars, to a very high standard, that you can drive hard on track or spiritedly on a back country road, just like all the Porsches they built before. They aren't nearly as interested in engineering a car that can drive you.

Different races, yes; for different people. Thank goodness.

Interesting Porsche comments.... I own 5 Porsches and have also been a PCA member for many years. Yes, Porsche knows it's "current" customer who is very different from the core Porsche customers. Most core Porsche customers, who are no longer a Porsche company priority, do not put Porsche and electric in the same category. I love my Porsches, but their electronic capabilities are way way way inferior to almost any other car brand. Finally, speaking of false advertising, LMAO regarding Porsche's new "Taycan Turbo". Almost forgot.....I'm ordering a new Airstream 25 Globetrotter FBT with autopilot built in. The brochure says no need for tow vehicle decisions. I saw that on the internet.
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Old 08-18-2021, 11:50 AM   #62
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…speaking of false advertising, LMAO regarding Porsche's new "Taycan Turbo".
You went there! It has been a friendly discussion, so I had decided not to bring that one up. But yes, a “Turbo” BEV is a good example. It is a parallel to BMW who for years had models like the 530, with 3 litre engines, and then started selling the 535, still with a 3 litre engine, but turbocharged. Then they released x40 models, which are “more” turbocharged.
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Old 08-18-2021, 12:27 PM   #63
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You went there! It has been a friendly discussion, so I had decided not to bring that one up. But yes, a “Turbo” BEV is a good example. It is a parallel to BMW who for years had models like the 530, with 3 litre engines, and then started selling the 535, still with a 3 litre engine, but turbocharged. Then they released x40 models, which are “more” turbocharged.
Apologies if interpreted as unfriendly. I was attempting to lighten things up a little and not aimed at anyone. For the record, Airstream does NOT make a GT autopilot. Also, I really am trying to buy a 25 GT FBT but having trouble finding a dealer who will take the time to take my order.... Apparently, they are finding many people putting deposits with multiple dealers and taking the first one that comes in. Getting a "real" cancellation agreement in writing has been a challenge. Now, back to Tesla...
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Old 08-18-2021, 01:05 PM   #64
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Can't we put aside such trivialities like EV performance, Autopilot snakeoilmandhip and concentrate on what's important? The Cybertruck is butt ugly!
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Old 08-18-2021, 01:48 PM   #65
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Interesting Porsche comments.... I own 5 Porsches and have also been a PCA member for many years. Yes, Porsche knows it's "current" customer who is very different from the core Porsche customers. Most core Porsche customers, who are no longer a Porsche company priority, do not put Porsche and electric in the same category. I love my Porsches, but their electronic capabilities are way way way inferior to almost any other car brand. Finally, speaking of false advertising, LMAO regarding Porsche's new "Taycan Turbo". Almost forgot.....I'm ordering a new Airstream 25 Globetrotter FBT with autopilot built in. The brochure says no need for tow vehicle decisions. I saw that on the internet.
No question, Porsche is having to adapt in response to changing times and regulations, so I wouldn't blame them entirely for abandoning their "core customers". Air cooling is dead for obvious reasons although some Porsche people still don't understand why. At least Porsche is still offering manual gearboxes and NA engines in some models (for now) something almost no other manufacturer is doing. I think they've stayed a lot closer to their roots than most.

I've heard the beef about "electronic capabilities". Frankly my Taycan and Audi are on par with each other in that department and better than my Ford. I guess it depends on what your expectations are. They aren't wired into the world the way Tesla is but they can do everything I need. To say they are "way, way" inferior to almost any other car brand in this area is "way, way" hyperbolic.

Taycan Turbo; yeah, there's been a lot of flack about that, and it's probably deserved. Obviously, they are trying to be consistent with the nomenclature for their model hierarchy but calling an electric car a turbo is kind of silly. OTOH, the Turbo moniker on a Porsche does imply performance and if you've ever driven a Taycan Turbo I guarantee you won't feel that the name is misleading on that score!

Good luck with your new GT. We have a 2020 and the autopilot feature wasn't available when we ordered ours. Damn!
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Old 08-18-2021, 01:53 PM   #66
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Can't we put aside such trivialities like EV performance, Autopilot snakeoilmandhip and concentrate on what's important? The Cybertruck is butt ugly!
Sorry if this offends anyone but....yes, it is.
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Old 08-18-2021, 02:32 PM   #67
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Can't we put aside such trivialities like EV performance, Autopilot snakeoilmandhip and concentrate on what's important? The Cybertruck is butt ugly!
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Sorry if this offends anyone but....yes, it is.

And the tri-motor is faster than your Porches. But it will take a couple of years for me to prove it with nearly a million pre-orders ahead of mine.
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Old 08-18-2021, 02:41 PM   #68
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And the tri-motor is faster than your Porches. But it will take a couple of years for me to prove it with nearly a million pre-orders ahead of mine.
Actually my porch isn't fast all; it's downright motionless.

My Porsche, on the other hand is about as fast as the tri-motor Cybertruck claims to be in a straight line. We'll have to see if that proves true in the real world. When you get yours, we can race.
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Old 08-18-2021, 03:01 PM   #69
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Actually my porch isn't fast all; it's downright motionless.

See. Even one more reason we need Elon Musk to succeed. He's probably the only person who can develop an AI spell-checker that actually fixes correctly spelled words to one your hands were trying to type.
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Old 08-18-2021, 03:12 PM   #70
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See. Even one more reason we need Elon Musk to succeed. He's probably the only person who can develop an AI spell-checker that actually fixes correctly spelled words to one your hands were trying to type.
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Old 08-18-2021, 03:37 PM   #71
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Re: the inherent lie in the name Taycan Turbo: I'd still love to have one, but if I suddenly found myself with enough cash lying around for it not to be a crazy purchase, I'd go the "Exclusive Manufaktur" route and have them exorcise every visible mention of "Turbo" from it. As long as you're going over the top, might as well go ALL the way.
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Old 08-18-2021, 03:48 PM   #72
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Re: the inherent lie in the name Taycan Turbo: I'd still love to have one, but if I suddenly found myself with enough cash lying around for it not to be a crazy purchase, I'd go the "Exclusive Manufaktur" route and have them exorcise every visible mention of "Turbo" from it. As long as you're going over the top, might as well go ALL the way.
It looks like an incredible machine, but I’d take the Model S Plaid. But not if there was truth in labelling and the seats were actually upholstered in plaid. That would be a deal breaker.

I still think a single axle Tesla Semi would make the best Super C. If they blended the cab styling they could call it a Class A. Airstream should get on that.
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Old 08-18-2021, 07:24 PM   #73
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I was just reading the latest issue of Car and Driver (Sep 2021) which, in the context of this thread, has a timely suite of articles on driver assistance systems, and I couldn't help but laugh.

I know this won’t change anyone’s mind (I’m looking at you, jcl and pteck ) but I just had to share an excerpt if for no other reason than to show I’m not the only person questioning the marketing of driver assistance terminology.

From Car and Driver:

AAA looked at the marketing terms automakers use for driver assistance systems and found 40 different names for automated emergency braking, 20 for adaptive cruise control, and 19 for lane keeping assist. The 2019 report claims “this makes it difficult for consumers to discern what features a vehicle has and how they actually work.” And previous research by AAA found that when a partially automated driving system’s name includes the word “pilot”, 40 percent of Americans expect the car will be able to drive itself. No one interviewed for this story wanted to comment on Tesla specifically, but given its use of the terms “Autopilot” and “Full Self Driving Capability” and in light of AAA’s findings, Tesla’s marketing may lead people to overestimate what cars can do.

Really? I'm just shocked!

Carry on...
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Old 08-18-2021, 07:46 PM   #74
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I was just reading the latest issue of Car and Driver (Sep 2021) which, in the context of this thread, has a timely suite of articles on driver assistance systems, and I couldn't help but laugh.

Yeah, I laugh too. Car & Drive, Motor Trend, etc. have lost their ever-loving minds and have zero credibility. They both quote features, range, 0-60 times, vehicle prices that are cherry picked from the best of other ev's and compare them to the Teslas models (that are not comparable models) to try and make them look competitive. Those same comparisons that they cannot find a way to skew against Tesla, they ignore and act like Tesla doesn't exist. Too many to red flags and false claims to list (unless someone wants to pay me for my time to do it).


How do I know this? I've subscribed to both magazines for over 25 years. I've noticed a bizarre change in the past couple of years. Why have these publications lost all credibility? Because Tesla doesn't buy ads and the other car companies do.


When both my subscriptions run out in October, they will not be renewed.
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Old 08-18-2021, 07:50 PM   #75
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I was just reading the latest issue of Car and Driver (Sep 2021) which, in the context of this thread, has a timely suite of articles on driver assistance systems, and I couldn't help but laugh.

I know this won’t change anyone’s mind (I’m looking at you, jcl and pteck ) but I just had to share an excerpt if for no other reason than to show I’m not the only person questioning the marketing of driver assistance terminology.

From Car and Driver:

AAA looked at the marketing terms automakers use for driver assistance systems and found 40 different names for automated emergency braking, 20 for adaptive cruise control, and 19 for lane keeping assist. The 2019 report claims “this makes it difficult for consumers to discern what features a vehicle has and how they actually work.” And previous research by AAA found that when a partially automated driving system’s name includes the word “pilot”, 40 percent of Americans expect the car will be able to drive itself. No one interviewed for this story wanted to comment on Tesla specifically, but given its use of the terms “Autopilot” and “Full Self Driving Capability” and in light of AAA’s findings, Tesla’s marketing may lead people to overestimate what cars can do.

Really? I'm just shocked!

Carry on...
Technology nomenclature and branding is a funny thing when you're talking about the unlearned masses. What you're sharing doesn't surprised me at all.

Even for common things like a strawberry, that I'm sure 99% would confidently insist is a berry, when technically it is not. That makes it no less satisfying as a false fruit.

And so what does that prove? Nothing.

Only that Tesla drivers and owners are generally incredibly satisfied and delighted by AutoPilot. You should try it.

Driving 10 hrs, and having AutoPilot automatically drive through 3 hrs of traffic of the worst LA kind, is magic. All I do is hang my hand on the steering wheel, relax, and let the car do the rest. Auto Pilot indeed.

I love to drive, but I surely wouldn't prefer my 6-speed manual Porsche through that. Even if it was marketed with a Power Assist Clutch, which may lead some to assume it might be satisfying to drive in traffic. But I give them credit on the Turbo branding, because in purer times, it really was. Sometimes I still find fault with that as it should have been Turbos, because two big ones.
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Old 08-18-2021, 08:03 PM   #76
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Some trouble for Tesla

Boy Tesla sure get a lot of free press with all this discussion of their cars. I counted 147 mentions of Tesla in this thread and I’m sure I missed a few. Who needs to pay for advertising and SEO with all this talk about the product…. On a forum about travel trailers no less

Car and driver also said this apparently, after giving the model 3 a 9/10 rating (quick google search):

“VERDICT
The Model 3 is a desirable and relatively affordable all-electric car that has helped the Tesla brand push EVs into the mainstream.”
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Old 08-18-2021, 08:37 PM   #77
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Yeah, I laugh too. Car & Drive, Motor Trend, etc. have lost their ever-loving minds and have zero credibility. They both quote features, range, 0-60 times, vehicle prices that are cherry picked from the best of other ev's and compare them to the Teslas models (that are not comparable models) to try and make them look competitive. Those same comparisons that they cannot find a way to skew against Tesla, they ignore and act like Tesla doesn't exist. Too many to red flags and false claims to list (unless someone wants to pay me for my time to do it).


How do I know this? I've subscribed to both magazines for over 25 years. I've noticed a bizarre change in the past couple of years. Why have these publications lost all credibility? Because Tesla doesn't buy ads and the other car companies do.


When both my subscriptions run out in October, they will not be renewed.
The primary source of the information in the excerpt is AAA, not C&D, so if you have a AAA membership you should probably cancel that too.
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Old 08-18-2021, 08:51 PM   #78
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Technology nomenclature and branding is a funny thing when you're talking about the unlearned masses. What you're sharing doesn't surprised me at all.

Even for common things like a strawberry, that I'm sure 99% would confidently insist is a berry, when technically it is not. That makes it no less satisfying as a false fruit.

And so what does that prove? Nothing.

Only that Tesla drivers and owners are generally incredibly satisfied and delighted by AutoPilot. You should try it.

Driving 10 hrs, and having AutoPilot automatically drive through 3 hrs of traffic of the worst LA kind, is magic. All I do is hang my hand on the steering wheel, relax, and let the car do the rest. Auto Pilot indeed.

I love to drive, but I surely wouldn't prefer my 6-speed manual Porsche through that. Even if it was marketed with a Power Assist Clutch, which may lead some to assume it might be satisfying to drive in traffic. But I give them credit on the Turbo branding, because in purer times, it really was. Sometimes I still find fault with that as it should have been Turbos, because two big ones.
The only thing I was trying to "prove" was that I didn't just make up the issue of potentially confusing marketing around driver assistance and that I'm not the only one who thinks it might be relevant.

Other than that, like I said, the article gave me a laugh because it cut so close to what we've been discussing. Also, I knew it would elicit more push back and I just couldn't resist!
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Old 08-18-2021, 09:43 PM   #79
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The only thing I was trying to "prove" was that I didn't just make up the issue of potentially confusing marketing around driver assistance and that I'm not the only one who thinks it might be relevant.

Other than that, like I said, the article gave me a laugh because it cut so close to what we've been discussing. Also, I knew it would elicit more push back and I just couldn't resist!

You're not trying very hard. You can find reports like this everywhere. But if you look a little harder, you'll find sources that refute them.

But hey, I might trust AAA to tow my car when my Auto Pilot runs it into a ditch.
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Old 08-18-2021, 09:46 PM   #80
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Boy Tesla sure get a lot of free press with all this discussion of their cars. I counted 147 mentions of Tesla in this thread and I’m sure I missed a few. Who needs to pay for advertising and SEO with all this talk about the product…. On a forum about travel trailers no less

Car and driver also said this apparently, after giving the model 3 a 9/10 rating (quick google search):

“VERDICT
The Model 3 is a desirable and relatively affordable all-electric car that has helped the Tesla brand push EVs into the mainstream.”

How'd that random act of journalism get past the editors?
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