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Old 08-17-2021, 02:04 PM   #41
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C'mon, Jeff. I think you know what I mean by fine print. The fact that there is verbiage that explains why the actual title of the option isn't factually descriptive, isn't a viable cover for making the misleading claim in the first place.
Yes, I know what you mean. We canít go to sleep and have it drive us, at least not yet. They plan for that capability, and note that when you get the OTA upgrade to do that (at no additional cost), and the regulators approve it, then you can have it. Date TBD. They arenít just selling a product today, they are selling an upgrade path. It is priced accordingly, as it is heavily discounted for those who want to be part of the product development cycle.

You are focusing on what it is called, and saying it doesnít do that today. We agree there. If you focus more on the destination, and not todayís functionality, it makes perfect sense to call it FSD. And they are very clear about it being a journey to true FSD capability.

I hear lots of objections to various features of Tesla vehicles. But they invariably come from those who donít own Teslas. Those who put their money down are statistically happier with that decision than purchasers of other vehicles. I donít buy the false advertising claim.

Tesla is a disruptor. They are creating major disruptions. I think that is great. We need it. I am equally impressed by their SoaceX work. Not at all by their Boring company, which I think is silly. I understand most of their vehicles. But I think that thrust jets on the new Roadster are ridiculous. I know the Semi is delayed, but I think it will be a landmark product. I worked with Volvo, Daimler, Paccar, and others on alternative fuel development projects for Class 8 trucks, and the Tesla Semi has pushed all of them, without even being on the market yet.
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Old 08-17-2021, 02:41 PM   #42
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I don’t buy the false advertising claim.
I didn't buy into it either, but I think in a different way than what you mean. Instead I bought an electric Audi and Porsche. Nice that we have choices. Happy trails!
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Old 08-17-2021, 03:44 PM   #43
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Old 08-17-2021, 05:06 PM   #44
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C'mon, Jeff. I think you know what I mean by fine print. The fact that there is verbiage that explains why the actual title of the option isn't factually descriptive, isn't a viable cover for making the misleading claim in the first place.

Neither is "what-about-ism"; saying that someone else does something similar isn't a defense. Besides, no one is going is going to be misled into thinking that a Mustang Mach 1 will reach the speed of sound. And 4 wheel drive vehicles do at least drive all 4 wheels under some circumstances and when properly optioned they do what the name implies.

OTOH, Teslas are not currently designed to "fully self drive" at all under any reasonable interpretation of the name although I wouldn't blame someone for thinking they were getting real self driving after plunking down 10 grand for the option.

The Mach I thing is barely hyperbolic. The full self driving thing is borderline dishonest and has the potential to be dangerous for someone who doesn't bother to RTFM.
What's interesting... Those who actually drive a Tesla, generally are elated by the real delivered capabilities. Those who don't and haven't experienced one, are critical.

If the technology were vaporware, wouldn't you think it'd be the other way around? Instead, Tesla scores exceedingly high marks in owner satisfaction. Because the delivered technology is the real deal.

What's also incredibly satisfying is the technology is not just static. There's constantly delivered value beyond the purchase date and price - a vehicle that literally transforms and gets better with the passing of time. Not just little things, but real differences like more range, more acceleration, more charging speed, on top of the already great but constantly maturing AutoPilot and Full Self Driving capabilities. Tesla's not just talking the talk, they are delivering game changing tangible things.

I'm a connoisseur of fine things too. German vehicles and Porsches yes. And some of the best top of the line things the Japanese have to offer. It's easy to juxtapose and compare those cars by traditional measures to know where they stand relative to each other.

Tesla doesn't play by those same rules. They exceed and excel in measures traditional cars just don't play by, Porsche (Audi/VW) included. And can't measure up to including range, charging infrastructure, integration and connectivity light years beyond other manufacturers. Constant improvement that is automatically downloaded. I do enjoy the sparse Tesla interiors in their own right and I find it satisfying for the reduced fussiness and mental load. Clean large screen control interface and UI, with minimal interaction required.

I design Aircraft - real autopilot and full autonomous flight capabilities beyond what you see in consumer aircraft. I have zero problem with the Autopilot nomenclature. After using the capability, it's a deserved and a spot on label. Tesla did not misbrand and under deliver here, quite the contrary. It's advertised as a Level 2 capability, but the truth is that it's way more capable than that as it's a subset of maturing Level 4 capability. Funny thing is people often quote comparisons that X brand's self capability is better then Tesla - when the article is several years old, and the X brand may not have even delivered the consumer product. Well, several years later, Tesla's delivered capability has already matured that much more and is still getting better continously.

I think you have some fine EVs, but they're only relation to Tesla is the drivetrain type. IMO, they don't measure up to what Tesla delivers elsewhere as they are focused on traditional qualities. I feel strongly about that as I've also owned non-Tesla EVs.
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Old 08-17-2021, 05:47 PM   #45
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We own a new Hyundai Kona which has smart cruise and collision avoidance..... the Insurance corporation here gives us a 20% discount because of the collision avoidance etc.
It does not have actual auto pilot but it does correct if you start to wander out of lane...so far with 5000km its a great car to drive and I love smart cruise.
I think the day is coming where you will have lines of transport trucks driving the interstates like trains with auto pilot and no operators.
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Old 08-17-2021, 06:37 PM   #46
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The key issue of the government investigation, according to reports, is determining why the autopilot system collided with emergency vehicles which had their flashing lights on at the time of collision.

As to whether the system being named "autopilot" is an actionable issue or not, I suspect will only be settled if and when a class action suit is ever filed and ruled upon.

I am no legal expert, and perhaps someone here who is can sheld more light, but as I understand it, the question of whether "autopilot" is a misnomer or not might hinge on the "reasonable person" standard, i.e. what a "reasonable person" might expect. The relevant law and regulatory agencies might also come into play, whether it's FTC, NTSB, or some other agency.

One would think in this country, the vultur....er..lawyers are circling, keeping an eye on Teslsa and it's piles of cash waiting for the right accident or numbers thereof to accumulate.

Of course, non of this stops us from the fun of arguing about it.
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Old 08-17-2021, 06:44 PM   #47
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You are focusing on the phrase ďautopilotĒ as if it is a binary question, autonomous or not. Teslaís Autopilot is simply a driver assistance feature. Autonomous driving has 6 levels. 0 is none. 1 is cruise control. 2 is active cruise control, and lane keeping. Tesla Autopilot is level 2. So is GMís Super Cruise, which is available today despite your comments about liability.

https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j3016_201806/

Fully autonomous driving is a ways away. But all of these systems should be evaluated on whether they result in fewer crashes, not on whether they have zero crashes. From the Q1 2021 Tesla safety report:



https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/vehiclesafetyreport

I use Tesla Autopilot features nearly every time I drive. I use the lane keeping feature on the highway, but not in the city. Wouldnít be without it.
One more way to give more control over your life to big brother.
No thank you.
We have gone way too far as far as I am concerned already.
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Old 08-17-2021, 07:27 PM   #48
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I think you have some fine EVs, but they're only relation to Tesla is the drivetrain type. IMO, they don't measure up to what Tesla delivers elsewhere as they are focused on traditional qualities. I feel strongly about that as I've also owned non-Tesla EVs.
We each have our personal preferences and I appreciate you sharing yours.

Clearly, our priorities are different, at least with regard to BEVs. For example, for my part, far from disdaining traditional qualities, it's their blending with technology that I most appreciate in my Porsche. I'm left completely cold by the relatively spartan Tesla interiors and their do-everything big center displays. I realize some people like that; I just don't. The legacy car makers may not yet have achieved Tesla's level of software sophistication, but a manufacturer like Porsche or Mercedes absolutely knows how to build a very high quality vehicle with superb paint, no panel gaps, and top notch fit and finish. Based on what I've seen, Tesla hasn't begun to figure out how to match them in those areas. Some people are happy with their Tesla anyway, but I can't get over that hurdle.

With regard to range and charging infrastructure, Tesla has advantages although that has almost zero relevance for me. Given my driving patterns, I charge almost 100% from home and there are enough public locations to meet my needs on the very rare occasion that I require a charge on the road. For some this issue might be a deal breaker, for me it's almost meaningless. Instead my focus is on the fact that Porsche has used their experience with building traditional sports cars to make my Taycan actually drive like one. If it didn't, that would be a deal breaker for ME, and all the software and gimmicks in the world like being able to play video games, or self parking, or fart noises or even the most cutting edge self driving suites wouldn't begin to make up for it.

Bottom line, I have my reasons for my lack of interest in buying a Tesla, just as you have yours for being attracted to them. We get caught up in the discussion and strive to make points for our positions but in the end it's kind of silly. Like almost everything else, it's a matter of what characteristics bring you the most value and satisfaction. Trite but true: I think we'll have to agree to disagree about which of them is most important in this case.
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Old 08-17-2021, 07:34 PM   #49
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The key issue of the government investigation, according to reports, is determining why the autopilot system collided with emergency vehicles which had their flashing lights on at the time of collision.

As to whether the system being named "autopilot" is an actionable issue or not, I suspect will only be settled if and when a class action suit is ever filed and ruled upon.

I am no legal expert, and perhaps someone here who is can sheld more light, but as I understand it, the question of whether "autopilot" is a misnomer or not might hinge on the "reasonable person" standard, i.e. what a "reasonable person" might expect. The relevant law and regulatory agencies might also come into play, whether it's FTC, NTSB, or some other agency.

One would think in this country, the vultur....er..lawyers are circling, keeping an eye on Teslsa and it's piles of cash waiting for the right accident or numbers thereof to accumulate.

Of course, non of this stops us from the fun of arguing about it.
My Tesla autopilot system is not designed to detect emergency vehicles. It doesn’t claim to. It tells me every time that I turn it on that that is my responsibility.

The NHTSA does not regulate what these features are called, simply whether they comply with existing regulations.

The investigation is focusing on eleven cases of crashes involving emergency vehicles and Tesla vehicles operating on Autopilot. Not self driving, simply the active cruise control and possibly the lane keeping function (which may or may not have been turned on). Two have been reported to be DUIs. One was an operator with a suspended license. Four were found to have been caused by driver inattention, including not keeping hands on the steering wheel. There are four cases with no details yet.

It is well worth investigating crashes, but given the statistical reduction in crashes with autopilot engaged, for the same Tesla vehicles, and the same driver population, it would be counterproductive to discourage the use of autopilot. It will take 12 to 18 months for the NHTSA to report, according to one interview. It doesn’t much matter what they conclude, because competitors will use that time period to disparage Tesla. If you can’t beat them, figure out another course of action.

There are a lot of vested interests here. Tesla is making huge sales inroads, with 2/3 of the electric vehicles sold in the US in the first half of this year being Teslas. In the UK, the Model 3 is now the single best selling vehicle, not just the best selling BEV. It is hard to ignore them now. Tesla doesn’t advertise, and doesn’t have a marketing department, so the automotive press and advertising industry who rely on advertising revenues are upset. Automotive unions are watching a non union company making these inroads. Dealers of traditional vehicles who have benefitted from the protectionist dealer franchise laws don’t like Tesla’s direct sales model, let alone the reduced service revenue if they do sell a BEV.

I don’t think the investigation will have much regulatory effect. I wish it would have, but traditional automakers are far behind in this race, and tighter regulations will harm them more than Tesla.

Meanwhile, in Europe, Mercedes has introduced Drive Pilot. They promote it as a Level 3 autonomous vehicle system, not Level 2 like Tesla does. Level 3 includes the advertised capability for drivers to take their eyes off the road, as the vehicle will handle it. The driver must be in the vehicle, but not required to be in control. The vehicle will advise the driver if they need to reengage. This particular system does not work at night, in the rain, and on many roads. Mercedes says they won’t sell it in the US until they get approval. But the system is demonstrably less capable than Tesla’s system.

Tesla’s approach is different. They undersell the capabilities of their system. They are accumulating untold millions of test miles with a large user population, with all the data being gathered linked back to Tesla. They are taking advantage of machine learning routines. The system will keep getting better. They will wait until the data presents a compelling case. They have the money to fund this long term development project. Eventually, they expect demand for their system to be stronger than the objections. And they will have the rights to it. That is what I referred to earlier as them running a race that their competitors aren’t even in. Most of their competitors seem to think it is about installing an electric motor and battery pack.

Interesting times.
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Old 08-17-2021, 07:53 PM   #50
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I thought I would see airstream somewhere in here, but I was wrong.
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Old 08-17-2021, 07:59 PM   #51
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I thought I would see airstream somewhere in here, but I was wrong.
It is a tow vehicle thread. In the tow vehicle subforum. Tesla has announced a tow vehicle. No word yet on how Teslaís Autopilot will adapt to towing.
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Old 08-17-2021, 08:14 PM   #52
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I thought I would see airstream somewhere in here, but I was wrong.

If you're just joining us from the main page, welcome! As Jeff pointed out, this is a sub-forum on TVs, and Battery Electric Vehicles (BEVs) in general, and Tesla in particular have been topics of discussion, especially over the last year since Tesla unveiled the polarizing CyberTruck (see earlier threads)

The forums here are a virtual campfire where we like to talk about everything from favorite beverages, to tires, to tow vehicles and on occasion, Airstreams.
Some of the the discussions are long and on-going. This one has long legs, but pales in comparison to the religious debates such as gas vs. diesel, 1/2 ton vs 3/4 ton, hitch brands and other legendary fights.

Sit back and enjoy reading, I always end up learning something I didn't realize I already knew or should have (in this thread, of course there's a regulatory spec on vomit, for instance). Feel free to jump in whenever.
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Old 08-17-2021, 08:40 PM   #53
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We each have our personal preferences and I appreciate you sharing yours.

Clearly, our priorities are different, at least with regard to BEVs. For example, for my part, far from disdaining traditional qualities, it's their blending with technology that I most appreciate in my Porsche. I'm left completely cold by the relatively spartan Tesla interiors and their do-everything big center displays. I realize some people like that; I just don't. The legacy car makers may not yet have achieved Tesla's level of software sophistication, but a manufacturer like Porsche or Mercedes absolutely knows how to build a very high quality vehicle with superb paint, no panel gaps, and top notch fit and finish. Based on what I've seen, Tesla hasn't begun to figure out how to match them in those areas. Some people are happy with their Tesla anyway, but I can't get over that hurdle.

With regard to range and charging infrastructure, Tesla has advantages although that has almost zero relevance for me. Given my driving patterns, I charge almost 100% from home and there are enough public locations to meet my needs on the very rare occasion that I require a charge on the road. For some this issue might be a deal breaker, for me it's almost meaningless. Instead my focus is on the fact that Porsche has used their experience with building traditional sports cars to make my Taycan actually drive like one. If it didn't, that would be a deal breaker for ME, and all the software and gimmicks in the world like being able to play video games, or self parking, or fart noises or even the most cutting edge self driving suites wouldn't begin to make up for it.

Bottom line, I have my reasons for my lack of interest in buying a Tesla, just as you have yours for being attracted to them. We get caught up in the discussion and strive to make points for our positions but in the end it's kind of silly. Like almost everything else, it's a matter of what characteristics bring you the most value and satisfaction. Trite but true: I think we'll have to agree to disagree about which of them is most important in this case.

I actually think we have more shared priorities than not. Don't get me wrong, I've done my fair share lusting after the Taycan. It as outrageous and exemplary of a vehicle as they come. Delivering in spades on the traditional premium and Porsche qualities, while also leveraging and delivering on the many BEV advantages. I've even considered "upgrading" from my all tactile and mint analogue 700HP 911 Turbo to your new age beast.

Here's where the surprise happened for me. I'm a traditionalist in some ways and prefer fine vehicles, premium construction, and quality that's found in long established legacy and heritage vehicles. Which not surprisingly includes the Airstream. I daily drive between my 911 Turbo and Lexus Land Cruiser. It's for my wife that I bought EVs, as practical around town runabouts. She's spoiled in that she has probably only visited a public "fuel" station 10 times in the last 10 years we've had EVs. And half of those times were for my gas cars, which she's had to re-learn how to do each time. That's real luxury to never rush or waste time to "fuel up". Around town is the only place an EV would shine...or so I thought.

The more time I spend driving my wife's Tesla Model 3, the more eye opening it is. For every traditional quality that Tesla is just okay at, it has 2 or more qualities that completely delights in ways that no other brand has even tried to deliver on. From the smallest nuances like built in dashcam/security and pre-emptive/continuous A/C for those hot summer errand days, to game changing functions like Autopilot and expanding Supercharger network. The latter two of which completely changed my mind about an EV being just good for around town. I just did two 1k mile trips in my wife's Tesla this past month. Those and other trips have done only cemented how effortless and satisfying a Tesla can be on long road trips.

Instead of dreaming about another Porsche, I find myself dreaming about a Tesla Plaid Model S. Or better yet, mix all the performance and utility into one vehicle, a Cybertruck. Something traditional priorities will have a hard time sizing up. I won't assume that it'll take over all towing duties, but I sense I may be pleasantly delighted again by what Tesla may deliver.
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Old 08-17-2021, 09:00 PM   #54
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That is what I referred to earlier as them running a race that their competitors aren’t even in. Most of their competitors seem to think it is about installing an electric motor and battery pack.
Or that Tesla is running a race they don't really feel is worth their full attention.

I've owned Porsches and been a member of the Porsche Club of America for almost 40 years. Although there may be a few exceptions, the last thing the typical Porsche owner is interested in is a Porsche that drives itself. Show up at a Porsche track, concours or even cars and coffee event and start hyping software superiority and self driving and you'd get some very strange looks.

Porsche knows it's customer just as Tesla knows theirs and they are each determined to give those customers what they want. Tesla's focus is on software, technology and selling hundreds of thousands of cars. The driving experience is secondary. Porsche embraces technology and electric propulsion too, but it's primary mission is to build relatively fewer cars, to a very high standard, that you can drive hard on track or spiritedly on a back country road, just like all the Porsches they built before. They aren't nearly as interested in engineering a car that can drive you.

Different races, yes; for different people. Thank goodness.
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Old 08-17-2021, 09:51 PM   #55
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Or that Tesla is running a race they don't really feel is worth their full attention.

I've owned Porsches and been a member of the Porsche Club of America for almost 40 years. Although there may be a few exceptions, the last thing the typical Porsche owner is interested in is a Porsche that drives itself. Show up at a Porsche track, concours or even cars and coffee event and start hyping software superiority and self driving and you'd get some very strange looks.

Porsche knows it's customer just as Tesla knows theirs and they are each determined to give those customers what they want. Tesla's focus is on software, technology and selling hundreds of thousands of cars. The driving experience is secondary. Porsche embraces technology and electric propulsion too, but it's primary mission is to build relatively fewer cars, to a very high standard, that you can drive hard on track or spiritedly on a back country road, just like all the Porsches they built before. They aren't nearly as interested in engineering a car that can drive you.

Different races, yes; for different people. Thank goodness.
I wasn’t referring specifically to Porsche, more the majors. I think of Porsche as a bit of an outlier. I tried to buy one once (not a turbo). I guess they didn’t consider me the right kind of customer. The dealer ticked me off so much that I called my. BMW dealer from the Porsche dealer’s parking lot. Bought another in a string of seven BMWs, the next day.

I get the comments about Porsche owners. I had a 1997 Morgan +4. The Morgan meets (in the UK) were like the Porsche meets.

Tesla isn’t focused on selling hundreds of thousands of cars. They are focused on selling millions. But more on changing the world of transportation.

I agree that to Tesla the driving experience, in the classic gear head sense, is secondary. But the user experience is top of mind. The things that surprise and delight aren’t the traditional visceral sensations relating to high revs, heel and toe, and so on, but there are constant things that bolster the user experience. That is why the owner satisfaction and loyalty stats are so high IMO.

I loved driving my Morgan, my twin turbo manual transmission BMW, and so on. The Tesla is completely different. I don’t have a performance model Y, or a Plaid, but can’t see myself ever purchasing another ICE vehicle. And I don’t want a self driving car, which is why I didn’t purchase FSD. I do want reduced carnage on our roads, a much cleaner environment, for us to collectively face up to climate change, and a few other things.

Cheers

Jeff
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Old 08-17-2021, 11:07 PM   #56
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I do want reduced carnage on our roads, a much cleaner environment, for us to collectively face up to climate change, and a few other things.

Cheers

Jeff
Amen, brother.

Cheers.
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Old 08-18-2021, 07:18 AM   #57
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I wasnít referring specifically to Porsche, more the majors. I think of Porsche as a bit of an outlier. I tried to buy one once (not a turbo). I guess they didnít consider me the right kind of customer. The dealer ticked me off so much that I called my. BMW dealer from the Porsche dealerís parking lot. Bought another in a string of seven BMWs, the next day.

I get the comments about Porsche owners. I had a 1997 Morgan +4. The Morgan meets (in the UK) were like the Porsche meets.

Tesla isnít focused on selling hundreds of thousands of cars. They are focused on selling millions. But more on changing the world of transportation.

I agree that to Tesla the driving experience, in the classic gear head sense, is secondary. But the user experience is top of mind. The things that surprise and delight arenít the traditional visceral sensations relating to high revs, heel and toe, and so on, but there are constant things that bolster the user experience. That is why the owner satisfaction and loyalty stats are so high IMO.

I loved driving my Morgan, my twin turbo manual transmission BMW, and so on. The Tesla is completely different. I donít have a performance model Y, or a Plaid, but canít see myself ever purchasing another ICE vehicle. And I donít want a self driving car, which is why I didnít purchase FSD. I do want reduced carnage on our roads, a much cleaner environment, for us to collectively face up to climate change, and a few other things.

Cheers

Jeff
You lost me with "climate change ".
Without constant climate change we would either freeze or boil to death.
As to ICE or Electric both utilize the same energy source.
Everything else is relative.
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Old 08-18-2021, 08:09 AM   #58
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If you are a start up and the big boys including the finical institutions do not want you to succeed, you got to make claims.

I am on my second Tesla and have gas vehicles as well. Give me a Tesla any day, auto pilot I use every day but that is the tip of the iceberg, the weight of batteries in middle gives unbelievable road holding, the acceleration, music from all over the world plus gamesÖ the list goes on and you get new features many times a yearÖ. He may be late but there is nothing close to his creation including his amazing supercharger network!

He has taken the Saudiís hold off America and done it single handed!
Fracking has killed OPEC.
My wifes Audi Q5 weighs 1,000 LBS less than the Tesla model 3.
Hugs the road and corners as if it is running on rails.
Uses 25% less energy, I can fill it up and be on my way in 15 minutes and drive it 450 miles before another fuel stop.
The fuel an ICE vehicle uses can be delivered inexpensively and conveniently anywhere it is needed anytime .
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Old 08-18-2021, 08:27 AM   #59
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My wifes Audi Q5 weighs 1,000 LBS less than the Tesla model 3.
Hugs the road and corners as if it is running on rails.
Uses 25% less energy.
I can fill it up and be on my way in 15 minutes and drive it 450 miles before another fuel stop.
Actually, the Model 3 weighs less than the Q5. This is easily confirmed on line.

The Model 3 has a lower CoG. I am sure your Q5 handles reasonably well, though.

The Q5 gets 23 mpg. The Model 3 gets 142 mpge, which is calculated by measuring the energy in a gallon of gas and calculating an equivalent energy consumption. This means the Model 3 is over 6 times as energy efficient.

Yes, you can fill your ICE vehicle up quickly, once you reach a gas station. Do you ever park it at home? Compare the home refuelling times as well.
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Old 08-18-2021, 08:41 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by franklyfrank View Post
You lost me with "climate change ".
Without constant climate change we would either freeze or boil to death.
Hey Frank. I left out the word anthropogenic (man made) in reference to climate change. It was assumed, but perhaps not clear to all. Sorry for losing you. Do you recall this previous post you made? I do, it was only four years ago. You objected to the word inertia, IIRC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by franklyfrank View Post
Here you go again using those big words.
You need to simplify things for dumb a**es like me.
You appear to be talking here about ambient temperature. If you turn the dial to red it will address the problem you have with freezing, and turning it to blue will stop you from boiling to death, in your words. This works on both ICE and battery electric vehicles.

Have a great day.
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