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Old 04-08-2020, 10:47 AM   #141
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out of sight, in your statement, what consideration have you made for the fact the diesel engine and transmission represents direct mass with corresponding inertia and momentum while hitch weight is a static force due to torque moments with no direct mass on the tongue and rear axle? The centripetal force required to negotiate a corner or perform a swerve must act on mass and the corresponding inertia alone. How does this reality change the idea that mass (not weight) distribution is now ideal?
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Old 04-08-2020, 11:01 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by out of sight View Post
One seldom mentioned benefit of a diesel is that the extra weight of the engine and transmission on the front axle can effectively balance out the hitch load on the rear axle. You are then left with a near-perfect front/rear axle weight distribution on the tow vehicle.
You have a lot of ideas that don't mate up well with reality. What you said may work for some light trailers, but you didn't specify. You threw out an overly broad statement, that can be easily picked apart.

I have a 1 ton truck with the aforementioned diesel engine. Without the WDH to push some weight back to the front axle the drive is not pleasant. With the WDH in place and properly configured, the drive is quite pleasant.

With regard to the original premise of this thread, I've pulled my trailer with both a 1/2 ton truck and a 1 ton truck. Yes, the 1/2 ton could do it, but it was a white knuckle drive even with a fully configured WDH hitch and load range D LT tires.
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Old 04-08-2020, 11:08 AM   #143
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I'm not sure what you mean that my statement doesn't match up with reality. The reality is that I have 52% of the truck load on the rear axle and 48% on the front. Almost perfect. Go pick it apart if you can.
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Old 04-08-2020, 11:12 AM   #144
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My 1968 Ford F100. Been towing my 25FB for 8 years up and down passes here in the Pacific Northwest! No stability problems or brakings issues whatsoever.
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Old 04-08-2020, 11:15 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by out of sight View Post
I'm not sure what you mean that my statement doesn't match up with reality. The reality is that I have 52% of the truck load on the rear axle and 48% on the front. Almost perfect. Go pick it apart if you can.
I just did pick it apart, you don't seem to recognize that and ignored it.
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Old 04-08-2020, 11:25 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalashnikov View Post
Official test:



Conclusion: You don't _need_ to spend 10k more on that 3/4 ton truck if you're towing 9k pounds or less.


That should cover most AS owners
Just a couple of things.
1) It’s the Diesel engine that adds most or all of the 10k difference. If you pick a gasoline 3/4 ton and less bells and whistles you might pay less than a blinged out F150.

2)There are many variables to think about when deciding on a truck like how and where you plan on going with your trailer. If you live in a flat state with very little elevation changes a 1/2 will work okay. If you plan to travel across mountain ranges a lot, you will be better off with a diesel powered 3/4 ton with an exhaust brake. If you plan on boondocking, get a 4wd.

These are my opinions after towing just about every combination imaginable. We currently have an FC 30’ which is the basis of this response. The truck? Ram 2500 Cummins 4x4
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Old 04-08-2020, 11:28 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
I just did pick it apart, you don't seem to recognize that and ignored it.
Quite honestly, every post that you make seems to be is a snow job laced with gibberish. How else does one respond to a snow job other than ignore it?
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Old 04-08-2020, 11:34 AM   #148
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Truck has to suitable 100% of the time

Just happened to notice this, even though I've tired to get rid of this website because I no longer own an Airstream or any trailer. Nevertheless, I have something important to mention to smarter guys here. That is that you must realize that your truck/trailer combination must be capable of operating in unusual conditions. Working OK 99% won't cut it.


Several years ago I, in hindsight, foolishly allowed my sister to drive my 3/4 ton truck and 25' Airstream over Tioga Pass on the way to Yosemite. To make a long story short, I started smelling brake pads on the very long downgrade from the top of that Pass to valley floor below. For the last several miles, there is NO place to pull over and stop to let the brakes cool. We barely made it to valley floor without brake failure. I've never seen any brake assemblies as hot as mine were when we finally stopped.


Here's the point: I am convinced that the ONLY thing that saved the lives of three people in that truck was the larger disk brakes that 3/4 ton trucks have that 1/2 ton trucks do not have. We used those 3/4 ton brakes to the very limit of failure in that odd situation, which was never repeated for several reasons. That is the only driving error I made in 9 years of owning that truck and trailer, but it could have been fatal.



So I think it well worth the extra money to buy a 3/4 ton truck to pull an Airstream of any size.
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Old 04-08-2020, 11:37 AM   #149
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By the way, here's something that everyone can do when they are shopping for a tow vehicle for a certain sized trailer:

Find out the axle load base weights for the vehicle you're interested in. This may be difficult but I did manage to find it on a towing spec sheet for RAM trucks. I could never find this info for Ford. Estimate how much the options you want will add to the axle base weights. Then measure the distance from the axle centerline to the hitch ball. You now have the information you need to calculate the axle loading after hitching up the trailer.
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Old 04-08-2020, 11:40 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by out of sight View Post
I'm not sure what you mean that my statement doesn't match up with reality. The reality is that I have 52% of the truck load on the rear axle and 48% on the front. Almost perfect. Go pick it apart if you can.
Now you're dissembling about what was actually posted (which I quoted in my response). You threw out a generality that is easily picked apart, and I did.

Many light trailers - especially utility trailers - can get by without a WDH. They simply don't put enough weight on the hitch to remove critical weight from the front axle. Neither do they usually need sway control because of their design and how they are loaded. There are always exceptions. A very tall utility trailer may be more inclined to sway. I pulled a dual axle enclosed utility trailer for years without a WDH or sway control. It pulled great. It's a different class of trailer than an RV on a number of points: tongue weight, GVWR, trailer height, to name just a few. That said, I'll throw out my theory that it's never wrong to use a WDH. Overkill? Sure.

Put enough RV tongue weight on the back of a 1 ton diesel and it will not behave well at highway speeds without a WDH. My personal experience proves your general statement wrong. Your experience proves that your setup works for you. If you had been very specific in your statement I wouldn't have called it out.

This next paragraph could spawn a whole new thread, but here goes.
I don't care what your axle weight ratios (front vs rear) are. What I do care about is that the front axle weights before and after the trailer is connected (with WDH), are close to the same.

My truck's axle ratios (as calculated from my latest CAT Scale form) are 45.5% front and 54.4% rear. (GCW = 20,120 lbs) What does that mean? If we're talking sports cars on a race track it means I have a poorly balanced vehicle that will probably have understeer. For a towing rig I don't think it means much, unless there is some other context involved. I don't plan to drive my truck/trailer around a race track.
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Old 04-08-2020, 11:49 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by out of sight View Post
By the way, here's something that everyone can do when they are shopping for a tow vehicle for a certain sized trailer:

Find out the axle load base weights for the vehicle you're interested in. This may be difficult but I did manage to find it on a towing spec sheet for RAM trucks. I could never find this info for Ford. Estimate how much the options you want will add to the axle base weights. Then measure the distance from the axle centerline to the hitch ball. You now have the information you need to calculate the axle loading after hitching up the trailer.
Ford publishes a document that provides the weight of every option. It's not easy to find, but if you want me to find it for you I can. Unfortunately, their website build page doesn't recalculate the decrease in the cargo capacity for each selected option. If it did, I think Ford would sell fewer F-250 trucks.

I bought an F-350 with a GVWR of 11,500 so I didn't have to worry about the fiddly bits of option weights. My cargo capacity is 3,200 lbs. Plenty for my bumper pull trailer that has a tongue weight of 940 to 1,480.
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Old 04-08-2020, 11:53 AM   #152
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Quite honestly, every post that you make seems to be is a snow job laced with gibberish. How else does one respond to a snow job other than ignore it?
If I were to take a survey, I doubt you'd get more than a handful of people to agree. Nice deflection though.
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Old 04-08-2020, 12:08 PM   #153
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Although our Grand Cherokee with a 5.7 Hemi V8 easily pulls and stops our 22 ft AS, it seems from what I am hearing from those with much larger and heavier models here is that the 3/4 ton pickup is the way to go. Whether one chooses the gas or diesel motor is relatively inconsequential, but the increased costs and reduced payload you get with the oil burner would lead me to go gas. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 04-08-2020, 12:12 PM   #154
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Yes, you can tow a 9000 lb trailer with a 1/2 ton truck, but you can't safely travel at highway speeds. For that you will need a larger truck. One rule of thumb is that the truck should weigh more than the trailer.
Iíd agree with that if... the trailer has no breaks.
If the trailer has its own working breaks handling its own stoping needs why would the truck have to be so heavy?
Sure. The heavier the truck the less impact the trailer has on it but... come on.
The most important part of towing safely is proper equip sure... but also operator ability and using so common sense . Simply respecting the fact youíre NOT going to drive around like thereís nothing behind you and use your head.
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Old 04-08-2020, 12:26 PM   #155
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Payload, per the actual door sticker, is almost always the limiting factor. Lots of numbers elsewhere claim all sorts of things.
Yes! Don't make my mistake.....check the door sticker. Even on same make & model they can vary......payload gets lowered a lot by hitch weight depending on trailer. In my case a 2019 33ft Classic. On most 1/2 ton after you minus #1175 hitch weight you are not left with zip for luggage and occupants. And my trailer weight is 8261# with full LP & Batteries.

Indvidual experience will differ, but larger (I use F250) with beefed up rear axle. Higher payloads, heavier springs, heavier truck, heavier engine choices in general, and easier leveling/sway control setup. And as already pointed out, more control at highway speeds. A dream on the roads.......but of course I think you know this already after hundreds of great replies.... I found out the hard way STL to CO via windy day in KN with a 1500 and not fun and only me and scant luggage.
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Old 04-08-2020, 12:31 PM   #156
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Casino Gambling: Tow Vehicle and Trailer Size

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRTKD View Post

I bought an F-350 with a GVWR of 11,500 so I didn't have to worry about the fiddly bits of option weights. My cargo capacity is 3,200 lbs. Plenty for my bumper pull trailer that has a tongue weight of 940 to 1,480.
******

My choice of a 2016 F350 4x4 diesel turbo was to tow our 25 foot International from a 5.7L Tundra Crew Max 4x4. A wonderful pickup, as all Tundras.

The F350 with 11,500 gvwr was why I could purchase an 'on the lot' end of year new 2019 27 foot International. I just could not justify the Tundra, which already had the leaf springs flat with the 25 foot in tow.

I would make the same decision even after the previous posts with convincing experiences. The vehicle/trailer combinations work well for the those owners finding practical and reasonable towing solutions for THEIR needs.

Special needs require special combinations. That is what is most important to my choice in trailer and tow vehicle. We do not camp at RV Parks or within City Limits, so we have to bring what we need along for a week or two weeks.

I use to travel with myself driving and two passengers for a a week camping in western Nebraska to tent camp and collect fossils on a ranch. This was all done in a 1956 VW and later a 1964 VW. It worked and never a complaint. This was from Independence, Missouri to Crawford, Nebraska.

Floored the gas peddle with 900cc was 55mph... without a headwind.

A 1966 Bronco with 4x4 was a dream come true.

These discussions are very helpful as it makes others think seriously that a nice interior and seating may be just a luxury that does provide comforts, but it is the trailer's needs, for me, that are most important.

There all kinds of Games of Poker. I prefer Craps, no longer care to play as I trained Dealers and taught Players. But when you are gambling with limited bankrolls, you have to figure in the House Advantage. Always.

So when getting my F350... I was the Casino this time. It gave me an advantage. I can prove it if we towed together. Fortunately for most, you would not want to tow into difficult places or into the mountains without knowing what to find ahead. This is my Advantage, like Casino Craps with the Craps Table has an advantage for the Come and Don't Come Player... win or lose.

On paved roads, we are then playing Poker. A game of skill... not optimism.
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Old 04-08-2020, 12:34 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalashnikov View Post
Official test:

....Conclusion: You don't _need_ to spend 10k more on that 3/4 ton truck if you're towing 9k pounds or less......
here's why i disagree with that, as an Airstream owner.

it's all about payload.

assuming your TV has the capacity to tow your trailer.....it's all about payload for me.

not just for safety reasons, but for STORAGE. our Airstreams don't have much in the way of outside storage. i have a 25ft front twin bed, which has plenty of outside compartments as far as Airstreams go, but not large enough for things like lawn chairs, generators, etc. now, you can store that on the inside of your trailer, but ...IMO....that's not the style of camping i like to do. i like to be able to set my rig down anywhere...whether it's our set campground spot or a stayover in a parking lot somewhere....and not have to navigate through all that stuff in the aisle of my rig to start relaxing and enjoying the space and amenities of a home on wheels that my Airstream affords us.

i tow my trailer, which can top out to a mere 7.5k, with a RAM 3500 megacab. while it can tow up to 16k, the most important number to me is the 4,200 pounds of payload it can haul. waaaay more that i need. but, it's nice to know, that aside from the total weight of three adults and two beagles and their baggage, i can easily ....not only haul my generators, tools, fuel cans, mats, grills, outdoor furniture, etc....that all that stuff can live right there on the bed of that truck. leaving my Airstream clear of all of it and making my camping experience that much more enjoyable.

so payload is important to me for those reasons, and i'd think it'd be too, to a lot of aspiring Airstream owners if they thought about the type of camping experience they'd like to have with owning a rig like ours. i truly wince when i hear of people contemplating getting a half-ton, when it's clear that they haven't thought about payload, beyond the hitch weight of the rig.

EDIT- when i first saw this thread, i mistakenly thought there was only one page of responses....not eight! so, i apologize for probably repeating what others might have already said.
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Old 04-08-2020, 12:42 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by out of sight View Post
Yes, that's a 5th wheel trailer. A bumper pull trailer is completely different. If the trailer is too big for the tow vehicle it will push the back of the tow vehicle around.

I've posted this chart from the National Association of Trailer Manufacturers before. It may be worth posting it again.
I have been towing my 2012 28ft FC with my RAM 1500 for ~50k miles now. In states where the speed limit is 55mph I drive 62 without worry or uncertainty about stability. In states with speed limits at or over 75 I drive at 70 without concern (sometimes passing at 75). I have set up the weight distribution on scales which I think is important. I do not believe I am a naÔve driver as I am also a pilot and think I could sense danger if it were there. So...my empirical experience tells me that one can tow a 6-7klb trailer with a 1/2 pickup with out worries.
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Old 04-08-2020, 12:44 PM   #159
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Whew! Some people never give up! A few thoughts:
1. The manufacturers’ “tow ratings” are useless. The limiting factor for Airstreams is always payload. That’s what you need to look at. I noted that the payload on the door sticker of the F250 In TFLT’s test wasn’t only about 65 lbs. more than that of my Sierra 1500.
2. Payload is tongue weight + the junk in your truck+passengers’ weight.
3. With all this talk about “bigger brakes” on a 3/4 ton, no one has mentioned that those bigger brakes have to stop 1,000 to 1,500 lbs more truck than the brakes on a half ton. I can dig them up now, but there was a website —pickptrucks.com I think — that did the full menu of performance tests on trucks, including stopping distance. I don’t recall a 3/4 ton truck ever winning one of those contests, just like my 6.2 Sierra will beat any 3/4 ton in 0-60 (even the ones with the more powerful diesels) because it weighs less. In any event the appropriate way to compare brakes on two vehicles is swept area (of the brake discs) per ton. Unfortunately that information seems not to be available.
4. I will agree that the longer wheelbase of a standard 3/4 ton will provide more directional stability than that of a short bed 1/2 ton like mine.
5. All modern trucks, even with gas engines have transmissions and cruise control with grade logic. That means that the transmission will shift down to maintain the set speed on a downgrade as well as an upgrade. Effectiveness of gas engine braking is a function of displacement, which means that small displacement turbocharged engines like Ford’s Ecoboost are not as effective as the normally aspirated bigger engines like my 6.2. The exhaust brakes on pickup diesels are probably even better.
5. Regardless of what you’re driving, I don’t think folks towing Airstreams should cruise along at 70. I note that in California the speed limit for towed vehicles is 55, which seems to be respected, even by truckers. The GYM tires fitted as OE on Airstreams used to take care of this: they would blow up at sustained speeds over 65.
6. Comparisons reported by people who owned 1/2 tons more than 8 years old or GM Astro vans are useless. Today’s 1/2 tons are far more capable in every respect. And the Astro vans are well known death traps. With every passenger seat filled, they were overloaded.
Yeah, I have driven across the Big Horn mountains to Ten Sleep in Wyoming pulling my FC 27 with my Sierra 1500. I don’t recall it as the least bit frightening experience. If you want a 3/4 ton diesel to pull your AS, then fine; have at it. But if you shop carefully, looking for the high payload 1/2 tons and you want a better daily driver, then they shouldn’t be ruled out. My FC 27 has a GVWR of 7,600 lbs. I believe some of the biggest Airstreams go up to 10,000. If that’s what I was pulling, I might go up to the 3/4 ton. But I probably wouldn’t pop the extra $10k for the diesel, given the big gas engines that all 3 manufacturers have rolled out.
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Old 04-08-2020, 12:44 PM   #160
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Yes, you can tow a 9000 lb trailer with a 1/2 ton truck, but you can't safely travel at highway speeds. For that you will need a larger truck. One rule of thumb is that the truck should weigh more than the trailer.

By your statement it would seem that no trailers over ~26' should ever be towed since they would all weigh much more than the truck. I have never heard the "rule of thumb" that trucks should always weigh more than the trailer. Where did you find that "rule"?
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