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Old 04-07-2020, 05:32 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overlander63 View Post
And again, the amount of pure disinformation spouted by some forum members about things they have absolutely no clue about, or are trying to justify the way they do things by talking others into following their bad example is mind boggling.
Can you be more specific but also play nice?
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#4286 Stella the 2000 30ft Excella/Classic - Tow Vehicle - 2012 Mercedes Benz GL350d - CanAmRv.ca hitch Reinforcement EZ-Lift WD with 2 Anti Sway Bars. previous tow vehicle 2005 Ford F150 Lariat 367,000Kms 5.4L
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Old 04-07-2020, 07:16 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
No, sorry it is not wrong. Read what I said carefully. Here is the reasoning:

Starting from zero load, up to about 70% of the load capacity of a tire at any particular pressure, cornering stiffness increases linearly. However it rapidly breaks over and becomes flat nearing the rated load capacity then begins to drop. So in the situations discussed here, when we are dealing with +/- 300 lbs of about 3500-5000 pounds total hovering around the tire load capacity (presuming it is properly inflated), the differences in vertical load does not change cornering stiffness by any appreciable amount.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Profxd View Post
Sorry I donít agree, based on your interpretation there would never be a need for a WDH.
It occurred to me I could have been more complete and accurate with this explanation. A vehicle's tires must hold the road sufficiently in a corner to overcome the centripetal force required to change the velocity vector. The force required is directly proportional to the mass acting on each tire and proportional to the vehicle velocity squared. Required force, F=mv^2/r where r is the radius of the corner. Available force is a function of cornering slip and slip angle. As I mentioned earlier for lightly loaded tires, cornering stiffness increases linearly with vertical load (mass) but it is not a one to one increase, so while adding say 100 lb mass to the load results in an exponential reduction of the maximum velocity any corner can be safely negotiated even in the range where Profxd is suggesting adding load to the rear tires improves cornering (as explained here, it does not). Now as the tire approaches maximum load based on proper cold tire pressure, the situation becomes worse because as I explained earlier the curve becomes flat. One way to improve the situation slightly is to over inflate the tires a bit for the actual load (if actual load requires 65psi, go with 72 instead to bring you back to the linear part of the curve), but you can't go too far because the effective width of the tire in contact with the road will start to drop at some point reducing actual cornering stiffness so there is a trade-off. This may be a good strategy when you expect some tight turns on an otherwise decent road.

Practical summary:

Increasing tow vehicle weight for any particular vehicle will decrease maximum safe cornering speed once neutral steering is achieved (zero under steer).

WD hitches restore steering geometry and allow the vehicle to approach neutral steering at safe (posted) speeds. Thus any vehicle with a hitch properly set up will have a higher safe speed than one without a WD hitch. Observe close to the yellow recommended speeds on curves (engineers add a safety margin) and slow down in poor weather. Another aspect of WD is that it redistributes static forces but not mass so it acts on the forces and geometries that affect handling response and shifts center of gravity but does not contribute to inertia the same way.

Careful though because for any vehicle, excessive speed will send your vehicle into over steer. This is because the front axle has active steering so slip angle is less than rear tires, and the exponential velocity issue effects and overcomes the rear tires more than the front. When towing, degradation at the rear axle occurs even faster due to additional trailer yaw forces, which aid the front axle and conspire against the rear.

So then what is the advantage to additional mass in tow vehicle and where should that mass be located? The detrimental forces generated by the trailer acting to disrupt tow vehicle performance all must act on the vehicle mass so the mass damps all these forces. So while additional vehicle mass itself degrades cornering, while towing it dramatically reduces the effects of the trailer to a much greater extent than does it impact cornering so that the net is improved cornering and improved stability by all measures. The ideal vehicle center of gravity for towing stability is at or just forward of the vehicle wheel base center.

How does this apply to the original post? It explains the observations made in the video. If you go with a 1/2 ton get max tow for suspension stiffness and damping, keep the vehicle low to the ground and make sure you have wide high load range tires with large rims. Get a high quality WD hitch and set it up properly. Then load the vehicle to near max payload (after including tongue weight). If you want the extra cargo capacity and peace of mind of the 3/4 ton, great.
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Old 04-07-2020, 07:27 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultraclassic View Post
Can you be more specific but also play nice?
I already did, in post 117 of this thread.
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Old 04-07-2020, 07:30 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by out of sight View Post
The actual thread was about towing ability of an F-150 vs a larger truck. It had nothing to do with payload.
I beg to differ, you could tow a AS 30 footer with a Miata, Except the payload is a "little Short" but it could tow it and stop it with the trailer brakes.
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Old 04-07-2020, 07:38 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overlander63 View Post
Since some people seem to think anything anyone says is worthless without experience... Just since I have been at my current place of employment, I have installed a minimum of:
2 hitches per day, 4 days per week, 52 weeks per year, for ten years, as of last month.
For those of you bad at math, that equals
4,160 hitch installs.


Believe me when I say WD and sway control are needed on all but the smallest Airstreams being towed by larger vehicles that are properly configured to do so.
And those smallest Arsitreams still need to have sway control of some kind on them, whether it is mechanical or electronic.
If a half ton truck is rated to tow a weight of trailer, when you read the owner's manual, it says "When Properly Configured and Equipped".

A 3/4 ton truck will most likely tow the same trailer more comfortably, just by virtue of it being "overbuilt" for the task at hand. Almost all 3/4 ton trucks are exactly the same as their 1 ton brethren, with some very minor changes, such as taller spring blocks. If you don't believe me, compare parts sheets for, say, an F250 and an F350. You will see axles, brakes, springs, shocks, all suspension and chassis components are exactly the same parts, with the exception of the rear spring block being taller.


I would strongly suggest heeding the recommendations of the more experienced people on this forum, and their trusted dealerships, rather than the very limited user base of a small handful of people whose experience is limited to one trailer and one truck, that happens to be their own, and are simply trying to justify their actions to anyone who will listen.
Overlander63

I agree with you
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Old 04-07-2020, 07:41 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overlander63 View Post
I already did, in post 117 of this thread.
Overlander63....Sorry I should have been more specific.

I meant "who" you were responding too with a reply.

When getting caught up on the thread it is not always clear who is saying what and to who.

Cheers Ultra
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Old 04-08-2020, 05:28 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
It occurred to me I could have been more complete and accurate with this explanation. A vehicle's tires must hold the road sufficiently in a corner to overcome the centripetal force required to change the velocity vector. The force required is directly proportional to the mass acting on each tire and proportional to the vehicle velocity squared. Required force, F=mv^2/r where r is the radius of the corner. Available force is a function of cornering slip and slip angle. As I mentioned earlier for lightly loaded tires, cornering stiffness increases linearly with vertical load (mass) but it is not a one to one increase, so while adding say 100 lb mass to the load results in an exponential reduction of the maximum velocity any corner can be safely negotiated even in the range where Profxd is suggesting adding load to the rear tires improves cornering (as explained here, it does not). Now as the tire approaches maximum load based on proper cold tire pressure, the situation becomes worse because as I explained earlier the curve becomes flat. One way to improve the situation slightly is to over inflate the tires a bit for the actual load (if actual load requires 65psi, go with 72 instead to bring you back to the linear part of the curve), but you can't go too far because the effective width of the tire in contact with the road will start to drop at some point reducing actual cornering stiffness so there is a trade-off. This may be a good strategy when you expect some tight turns on an otherwise decent road.

Practical summary:

Increasing tow vehicle weight for any particular vehicle will decrease maximum safe cornering speed once neutral steering is achieved (zero under steer).

WD hitches restore steering geometry and allow the vehicle to approach neutral steering at safe (posted) speeds. Thus any vehicle with a hitch properly set up will have a higher safe speed than one without a WD hitch. Observe close to the yellow recommended speeds on curves (engineers add a safety margin) and slow down in poor weather. Another aspect of WD is that it redistributes static forces but not mass so it acts on the forces and geometries that affect handling response and shifts center of gravity but does not contribute to inertia the same way.

Careful though because for any vehicle, excessive speed will send your vehicle into over steer. This is because the front axle has active steering so slip angle is less than rear tires, and the exponential velocity issue effects and overcomes the rear tires more than the front. When towing, degradation at the rear axle occurs even faster due to additional trailer yaw forces, which aid the front axle and conspire against the rear.

So then what is the advantage to additional mass in tow vehicle and where should that mass be located? The detrimental forces generated by the trailer acting to disrupt tow vehicle performance all must act on the vehicle mass so the mass damps all these forces. So while additional vehicle mass itself degrades cornering, while towing it dramatically reduces the effects of the trailer to a much greater extent than does it impact cornering so that the net is improved cornering and improved stability by all measures. The ideal vehicle center of gravity for towing stability is at or just forward of the vehicle wheel base center.

How does this apply to the original post? It explains the observations made in the video. If you go with a 1/2 ton get max tow for suspension stiffness and damping, keep the vehicle low to the ground and make sure you have wide high load range tires with large rims. Get a high quality WD hitch and set it up properly. Then load the vehicle to near max payload (after including tongue weight). If you want the extra cargo capacity and peace of mind of the 3/4 ton, great.
Iím not going to right a book here to counter your arguments but you are still dismissing the importance of tire cornering stiffness. If steering geometry is that impacted by the addition of tongue weight you have the wrong TV to begin with. A roughly 5% reduction in rear tire cornering stiffness from a WDH is about what the industry finds acceptable, more then that will have a negative impact on stability and handling when towing. That translates to 50% or less FALR.
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Old 04-08-2020, 06:05 AM   #128
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MeThinks the OP was just baiting someone to pull the trigger?

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Old 04-08-2020, 06:32 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpatrick16 View Post
If the OEM certifies their half-ton to pull a designated weight it would mean it could so "safely". My F150 is rated to 14,000.
14,000 lb. would be a big load for an F-250, or F-350.....

OEM ratings these days are bunk....

Use this example to make the problem clearer.....

You can put a 450 hp engine in an El Camino....you can install a hitch and stiff springs on that El Camino...YOu can connect it to a 14,000 lb load, and it will pull it......but would you actually do it? Is it safe? Is it wise?
......The answer is no, because eventually you will have to stop, turn, maneuver, go down a steep grade, at which point all hell is going to break loose....Big loads require heavier trucks, in order to be hauled safely.
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Old 04-08-2020, 08:03 AM   #130
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A shorter post does not make it better than one that is trying to explain and make a point using experience and facts.

Much like towing for thirty years makes one an expert?

I have been using my teeth for 69 years. So, what? Makes me a better eater? I am steady at 180 pounds... not 240 pounds. Does that indicate my, inexperience?

People will manage to tow with their vehicle of choice with their trailer of choice. Since 2006 towing Airstreams first with a 2006 Tundra and now a 2016 F350 4x4 Diesel towing a 27 foot International... the F350 suits me just fine and nothing is going to change my mind.

Some learn by trial and error. Others do not. If it works for you, just say why and leave the judging to those following these posts. Some posts are very good. Others... probably wearing dentures and should exercise more often.
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Old 04-08-2020, 08:26 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkcurtiss View Post
14,000 lb. would be a big load for an F-250, or F-350.....

OEM ratings these days are bunk....

Use this example to make the problem clearer.....

You can put a 450 hp engine in an El Camino....you can install a hitch and stiff springs on that El Camino...YOu can connect it to a 14,000 lb load, and it will pull it......but would you actually do it? Is it safe? Is it wise?
......The answer is no, because eventually you will have to stop, turn, maneuver, go down a steep grade, at which point all hell is going to break loose....Big loads require heavier trucks, in order to be hauled safely.
AMEN!

Oh boy; now you've done it! Ultraclassic (who claims to be "looking")in post #120 above, states that a Porsche or Mercedes would do just fine... How many of these guys would put their cahones and family on the line pulling a 28' AS down a steep grade at highway speeds with a Porsche or Mercedes...here we go again!

The "I wana believe" crowd who refuse to be convinced...
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Old 04-08-2020, 08:32 AM   #132
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Anyone still here after 130 posts deserves the torture.
I quit about 50 posts, nothing good happens in long threads.
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Old 04-08-2020, 08:41 AM   #133
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Quote:
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...Much like towing for thirty years makes one an expert
33yrs, and yes I am an expert with MY rig, and that is all that's important to my family and all the others that we share the road with. 👍

ďWe were young and knew nothing...now we are old and everyone else knows everything." 😂
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Old 04-08-2020, 09:32 AM   #134
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I guess the only tow vehicle for the three axle trailers would be that 6 wheel drive Mercedes desert monster. ;-)
One comment was correct, modern F150s basically have F250 rear ends, plus a tow package ups the rating even more.
Brakes; your trailer should have its own properly adjusted / working brakes.

Be safe all. Tip; those Jason or Hannibal style goalie masks? No filtering but can help keep that 6 foot distance ;-)
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Old 04-08-2020, 09:40 AM   #135
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Iíve been reading all these threads about truck size vs trailer weight and wondering where I went wrong. I havenít towed in years b75 in the seventies I had a 1/2 ton Chevy with a 10í camper and I pulled a 4 horse trailer with about 3500 pounds of horses plus tack and feed up into the Cascade mountains of Washington. No problem whatsoever, circumstances dictated speed.
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Old 04-08-2020, 09:54 AM   #136
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Time to Move On

When I saw the OP, I knew it would devolve into troll/counter-troll arguments by experts with self-proclaimed bona fides.

I just wanted to say thanks. Thanks to everyone for re-confirming for my wife and me why we prefer to travel alone.
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Old 04-08-2020, 10:03 AM   #137
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Ahh, the $10,000 diesel question. Numbers aside, for me, it all comes down to preference.

I have pulled my 30' Airstream with:

1. 1/2 ton pickup and SUV with and without weight distributing hitch
2. 3/4 ton gas pickup with and without weight distributing hitch
3. 3/4 ton diesel pickup with and without weight distributing hitch

I prefer the 3/4 ton diesel.

When I play with the issue of payload, neither option 1 or 2 above were pulled with anything other then passenger payload. I didn't have a bed full of my camping gear, propane and fresh water tank full and 4 people in the vehicle. #3 above has been tested under full payload conditions, and the performance met my standard of excellent.

Everyone has to do what they like, prefer and are most comfortable with.

This issue appears to be a hot button as it is presented as binary: yes or no, diesel or gas, 1/2 ton or more when in reality the answer will always be: it depends, it depends, it depends:

Depends on:
payload
driving style
driving preferences
route preferences
road conditions
camper condition and setup
tow vehicle condition and setup
driver experience
driver degree of comfort

You decide based on your circumstances
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Old 04-08-2020, 10:09 AM   #138
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Jim Hensley Hitch, 1/2 ton GMC with 9400tow pack, 5.3 V-8...6K dry bumper Pull

The Rig tows great, when not towing, I get over 20mpg highway, and, the cab is very comfortable on long runs.

3/4 ton is a drag , as a daily driver
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Old 04-08-2020, 10:13 AM   #139
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Altitude and climb grade have a significant impact on torque. If you never plan to go into the mountains then that 1/2 ton is fine. otherwise you may redline your TV even at less than 9K lbs
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Old 04-08-2020, 10:17 AM   #140
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One seldom mentioned benefit of a diesel is that the extra weight of the engine and transmission on the front axle can effectively balance out the hitch load on the rear axle. You are then left with a near-perfect front/rear axle weight distribution on the tow vehicle.
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