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Old 04-06-2020, 09:33 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by kscherzi View Post
And what if you're towing an 28 foot airstream down a narrow nine mile long twisting 12% grade in freezing rain late on a moonless night at 65 mph when suddenly the trailer brakes go out. There just ahead is a sharp 25 mph turn protected by a thin piece of bent rusty guardrail past which is the deadly 2,000 foot cliff of doom.

Which would you rather be driving, a F150 or F250?
And similar situation to us....going 65 in NC couple years back, comming around the corner down a mountain highway, and traffic at a dead stop; no ones brake lights on, while pulling our 28' with our F250...wife and I both felt our hearts jump...but the F250 safely stopped us a foot or so from the guy in front. Say what you want...if you ain't been there, it's hard to argue...
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Old 04-06-2020, 09:37 AM   #82
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I wish you folks would STOP quoting those that I have on my frivolous list...I can put up with stepping in it, I prefer not to have it seep into the cranium. 🥴

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Old 04-06-2020, 09:44 AM   #83
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I tow with a 2500. I have been on many Airstream caravans so have seen a lot of rigs during the check outs. Literally hundreds of them. Many, many people tow different sized Airstreams successfully with 1/2 ton vehicles. I know several who have dropped back from a diesel 250 to the gas 150 and are very happy with the change. So I know towing with the right 150 can be done well. I expect the brakes on a new F150 are pretty darn good. I suspect engine braking is good. I bet the independent front suspension is nice. I hope I do not have to decide on a new TV any time soon. But I will look at the F150 when I do.

I think driving ability and vehicle upkeep makes far more difference in safety than 1/2 ton or 3/4 ton. I have been in bad situations a few times. In attention or poor maintenance caused them. I seem to loose an inordinate number of brake wire connections.
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Old 04-06-2020, 10:02 AM   #84
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And again, the amount of pure disinformation spouted by some forum members about things they have absolutely no clue about, or are trying to justify the way they do things by talking others into following their bad example is mind boggling.
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Old 04-06-2020, 10:07 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
I'll just fix this directly. You're welcome...

There, much better.
First, let me kindly request that when you "fix" my posts that you remove my name from them. I wouldn't want people to think it's coming from me. Thanks.

As to the loss of traction issue, it is the loss of rear, not front traction that causes the accident. Decreasing downward force on the tires will always decrease traction and will always lower the jackknife threshhold.

As to the tongue weight issue, this cannot be alleviated with any type of hitch. Tongue weight is a measure of where the center of gravity of the trailer is. When the trailer CG gets close to the hitch point the mass of the trailer puts more lateral force on the hitch. A hitch cannot remove mass. It can only increase the mass by virtue of its own mass.
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Old 04-06-2020, 10:25 AM   #86
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I am new here & hope that my P-Truck research turns out to be correct. I created a spread sheet with the big-3 manufacturers’ approximate price, HP, torque ratings, max loads & etc. I purchased a 2019 F-150 3.5 EB (Max Tow). My understanding is that many ½ ton trucks CAN tow but the question is can you stop with your load. I have been told that if you’re unloaded / dry weight is at or > 7000 lbs. then one needs a ¾ ton truck. We have a 25’ International RBT on order with a 5250 lb. dry weight & ~ 7600 lb. loaded. This give me ~ 5000 lbs. margin with the trucks 12,700 lbs. tow rating. I also added 1500 lb. Sumo Springs due to F-150s tendency to “squat” under load… Will have a WD + anti-sway hitch. I will find out as soon as Airstream Factory opens up again.
TravelNew20,

First welcome to Airstreams and Airforums.

You hit on one of the most discussed, debated, argued about, opinionated, my rig is sight unseen better than yours topics on this forum. Hitches are right up there too.

In fact you might want to start your own thread specific to your situation.

IMHO one of the overlooked side topics to this is your gotta have it collection of stuff. What do you want or need to take to make your trip successful. Look at that pile and it all counts weight and space wise.

Safe travel.

Gary
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Old 04-06-2020, 10:47 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherzi View Post
And what if you're towing an 28 foot airstream down a narrow nine mile long twisting 12% grade in freezing rain late on a moonless night at 65 mph when suddenly the trailer brakes go out. There just ahead is a sharp 25 mph turn protected by a thin piece of bent rusty guardrail past which is the deadly 2,000 foot cliff of doom.

Which would you rather be driving, a F150 or F250?
If one is towing a heavy trailer down a narrow nine mile long twisting 12% grade in freezing rain in the dark, and doing it at 65 mph, towards a 25 mph corner with a 2000 foot drop, then they have essentially plotted their course. Sounds harsh, but there is another thread on here about Darwin Awards. They stand to win one. The choice of tow vehicle just doesn't enter into it.

What an absurd construct.

I am a little confused though. Where is the school bus of orphans? Weren't they out that night as well?

But since you ask, I'll take the vehicle with the shortest stopping distance. and that will be the half ton, until the operator fades the TV brakes. But you said there was only one 25 mph corner, so the choice stands; either vehicle can deal with one stop after the trailer brakes fail (which was likely due to poor maintenance on the part of the operator)
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Old 04-06-2020, 10:52 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherzi View Post
And what if you're towing an 28 foot airstream down a narrow nine mile long twisting 12% grade in freezing rain late on a moonless night at 65 mph when suddenly the trailer brakes go out. There just ahead is a sharp 25 mph turn protected by a thin piece of bent rusty guardrail past which is the deadly 2,000 foot cliff of doom.

Which would you rather be driving, a F150 or F250?

If you are doing 65 mph in an ice storm on flat, straight, open pavement with no trailer, you deserve to be removed from the gene pool...
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Old 04-06-2020, 12:28 PM   #89
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First, let me kindly request that when you "fix" my posts that you remove my name from them. I wouldn't want people to think it's coming from me. Thanks.

As to the loss of traction issue, it is the loss of rear, not front traction that causes the accident. Decreasing downward force on the tires will always decrease traction and will always lower the jackknife threshhold.

As to the tongue weight issue, this cannot be alleviated with any type of hitch. Tongue weight is a measure of where the center of gravity of the trailer is. When the trailer CG gets close to the hitch point the mass of the trailer puts more lateral force on the hitch. A hitch cannot remove mass. It can only increase the mass by virtue of its own mass.
What is it with you, does your ego prevent you from admitting your technical incompetence?

Let me try again.....

In cornering (except perhaps on ice or in standing water, but towing on ice or in heavy rain at speed is a fools errand so I'll disregard), long before tire traction is lost due to low friction coefficients, the tire experiences slip. Since we are discussing 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks we are dealing with tire ratings and load ranges where cornering stiffness is not sensitive to axle weight. Therefore at the initiation hazardous oversteer, tire vertical load is not a factor and it does not become a factor until after the final outcome is already determined.

Lateral forces due to yaw inertia can be alleviated by taking steps to increase yaw damping. WD hitches with Anti-sway properties increase yaw damping.

What does correcting poor advice and faulty technical information have to do with deciding between a 1/2 ton and a 3/4 ton vehicle? With sound information about the strategies to trade off relevant factors, one should be able to better decide which vehicle is right for their particular situation.
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Old 04-06-2020, 12:49 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by overlander63 View Post
And again, the amount of pure disinformation spouted by some forum members about things they have absolutely no clue about, or are trying to justify the way they do things by talking others into following their bad example is mind boggling.

I go with justify....

Bob
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Old 04-06-2020, 12:50 PM   #91
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I am normally worn out from these endless hitch or TV threads, giving up long before the thread dies. When I started looking into Airstreams and what I wanted, back in 2013, I concluded that I wanted a ProPride and never looked back. Strangely, although I have an engineering background, I never looked into the physics or engineering of sway and towing. Today, with nothing better to do, I read some articles and journals, educating myself on such things as "critical speed".
So thanks for forcing me to dig deeper. Having said that, I must finish with this. I love my ProPride, I love my 2500HD(I started with a 1500 and experienced the difference), and I never drive over 55 mph when towing. COVID-19 may kill me, but I do not expect a poor towing setup to contribute to my death.
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Old 04-06-2020, 01:15 PM   #92
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“ Since we are discussing 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks we are dealing with tire ratings and load ranges where cornering stiffness is not sensitive to axle weight. Therefore at the initiation hazardous oversteer, tire vertical load is not a factor and it does not become a factor until after the final outcome is already determined.”

This is completely wrong! The cornering stiffness generated at the TV rear tires is the primary number 1 means of dampening yaw. Tire vertical (normal) load is what generates cornering stiffness, you reduce tire load you reduce cornering stiffness (grip).
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Old 04-06-2020, 01:22 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
What is it with you, does your ego prevent you from admitting your technical incompetence?

Let me try again.....

In cornering (except perhaps on ice or in standing water, but towing on ice or in heavy rain at speed is a fools errand so I'll disregard), long before tire traction is lost due to low friction coefficients, the tire experiences slip. Since we are discussing 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks we are dealing with tire ratings and load ranges where cornering stiffness is not sensitive to axle weight. Therefore at the initiation hazardous oversteer, tire vertical load is not a factor and it does not become a factor until after the final outcome is already determined.

Lateral forces due to yaw inertia can be alleviated by taking steps to increase yaw damping. WD hitches with Anti-sway properties increase yaw damping.

What does correcting poor advice and faulty technical information have to do with deciding between a 1/2 ton and a 3/4 ton vehicle? With sound information about the strategies to trade off relevant factors, one should be able to better decide which vehicle is right for their particular situation.
Please allow me to suggest that you try to limit your nasty snippets. They really show that you're losing the argument (if you can't come back with a coherent response, come back with insults).
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Old 04-06-2020, 01:22 PM   #94
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Yes....

...And with no W/D, the more you increase rear load the less you will have to worry about steering altogether.😂



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Old 04-06-2020, 02:07 PM   #95
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“ Since we are discussing 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks we are dealing with tire ratings and load ranges where cornering stiffness is not sensitive to axle weight. Therefore at the initiation hazardous oversteer, tire vertical load is not a factor and it does not become a factor until after the final outcome is already determined.”

This is completely wrong! The cornering stiffness generated at the TV rear tires is the primary number 1 means of dampening yaw. Tire vertical (normal) load is what generates cornering stiffness, you reduce tire load you reduce cornering stiffness (grip).
No, sorry it is not wrong. Read what I said carefully. Here is the reasoning:

Starting from zero load, up to about 70% of the load capacity of a tire at any particular pressure, cornering stiffness increases linearly. However it rapidly breaks over and becomes flat nearing the rated load capacity then begins to drop. So in the situations discussed here, when we are dealing with +/- 300 lbs of about 3500-5000 pounds total hovering around the tire load capacity (presuming it is properly inflated), the differences in vertical load does not change cornering stiffness by any appreciable amount.
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Old 04-06-2020, 04:04 PM   #96
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Sorry I don’t agree, based on your interpretation there would never be a need for a WDH.
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Old 04-06-2020, 04:51 PM   #97
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Maximum 100% tire load should occur prior to the cornering stiffness plateau as in the picture below.
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Old 04-06-2020, 05:09 PM   #98
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Looks like a curve applicable to 40psi max passenger tires.
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Old 04-06-2020, 05:14 PM   #99
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This was a thread about the payload of F-150 and other 1/2 ton trucks. I know that MIT is closed during this health crisis. Can your physics debate wait until next semester?

Please stay on topic...
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Old 04-06-2020, 05:24 PM   #100
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The discussion of large trucks vs small trucks of necessity involves issues of stability, so it is on topic.
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