So I guess a 1/2-ton truck is enough

[jcl]

Originally Posted by SallyForth

Just to amplify the importance of evaluating the role of some of the above items on handling, there is this article:
https://rvdaily.com.au/the-length-of...ers-heres-why/

Low profile tires might seem an advantage, but they actually work against you. The interrelation of overhang / tow bar length, wheel base, and tire profile and their impact on handling are explored in this article.

Disagree that low profile tires necessarily work against you. Depends on the vehicle, and the tire. The goal is often increased sidewall stiffness, or cornering stiffness, which can be accomplished with a lower profile, a different construction, or higher inflation pressure.

It may be worth reviewing similar towing articles at the CanAm website. Your Australian link is based on different vehicles and different trailers. CanAm talk about the rear overhang to wheelbase ratio as being more important than either wheelbase or rear overhang by themselves. They also have specific tire recommendations, based on knowing the vehicles being used as tow vehicles, and your link appears to take a different tack.

[B.trudeau]

Originally Posted by franklyfrank

You are all missing the critical aspect of towing here.
Pulling a trailer as Wally has aptly demonstrated could be done with a Bicycle.
Stopping and navigating it down the highways, up and down mountains is all together a different proposition.
A semi tractor pulling a gross weight around 80k runs on 5 axels, 18 wheels with humongous Air brakes working in unison .
Add to that the strategically located rear trailer axels in comparison to a 30' Air Stream makes all the difference in safety.
And yes towing with a heavier TV with a long wheelbase is the safest setup.
This is where the " I an pull it with a xyz small vehicle is nonsensical.
And I don't care how good your Porsche Cayenne brakes are when that rear end of that AS begins its sway it will whip that Porsche around.
Modifying these light weight short wheel base vehicles for towing is unsafe.

Right! many people see things Like you! I know I do! but consider that people see and hear things and they take what works to their advantage ignoring basic facts that some of their interpretation has a potential to ruin their journey!
There are people out there modifying or solidifying the receiver/frame portion who think this will makes the Suv/car ok to tow!, towing 25 Ft + trailers with SUV's ie. Porsche, Mercedes, Denali, with short wheelbase and limited payload, adding air balloons to their suspension, replacing tires with ticker walls the list goes on! Most of these people ignore the real things which are the payload! of course other things comes into play but if Payload numbers are not working one should be doomed!
At a local event, I've seen a Lexus 450H from Ontario (payload in the +/- 1000, and towing capacity of 3500 Lbs) towing a 27 GT! This my friend is crazy and one has to be seriously disconnected to compromise the security of other road users!, I myself don't have any respect for this kind of ignorants!

[SallyForth]

Originally Posted by jcl

Disagree that low profile tires necessarily work against you. Depends on the vehicle, and the tire..

The point they are making is all tires have a fixed amount traction, in this case lateral forces are the issue. A low profile tire provides less feedback of lateral forces to the driver allowing them to unknowingly approach total loss of traction.

Personally, I consider the higher profile of stock truck tires part of the suspension system, and I am puzzled why some truck owners or dealers will swap out stock tires for extremely low profile tires to obtain a certain look.

[GettinAway]

Originally Posted by Bobbo

I don't think truck size is even on the list of causes of accidents. What truck you tow with does not cause any accident. However, having a larger truck helps you AVOID an accident much better than a smaller truck.

Much better? How much? Once again, I think it’s pretty far down on the list. If you keep yourself out of situations by driving defensively, and have your TV and trailer set up optimally, you’ll avoid most accidents. Many years of long distance motorcycle travel have made me a very defensive driver.
I’m sure towing with a one ton diesel is easier than with a half ton, but there’s far too many half ton trucks pulling many many trailers. If there was a significant disadvantage I think it would have become apparent by now.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by SallyForth

The point they are making is all tires have a fixed amount traction, in this case lateral forces are the issue. A low profile tire provides less feedback of lateral forces to the driver allowing them to unknowingly approach total loss of traction.

Personally, I consider the higher profile of stock truck tires part of the suspension system, and I am puzzled why some truck owners or dealers will swap out stock tires for extremely low profile tires to obtain a certain look.

And if the tire squirms around too much then the combination will be less comfortable, and less safe. Your example can be mitigated against by not cornering at excessive speed.

Your photo appears to show a lifted truck, which is less stable due to higher CoG. Fashion tires won’t help, but are but one failing.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by B.trudeau

At a local event, I've seen a Lexus 450H from Ontario (payload in the +/- 1000, and towing capacity of 3500 Lbs) towing a 27 GT! This my friend is crazy and one has to be seriously disconnected to compromise the security of other road users!, I myself don't have any respect for this kind of ignorants!

3500 lbs is a common receiver rating. I had an SUV with a hitch like that. But strengthening the receiver can improve it. Certainly the vehicle was far more capable than the stock receiver. I didn’t need different tires. Or airbags. The payload label was artificially low, but the true payload, arrived at by weighing the vehicle and subtracting that from the GVWR, was quite a bit higher. And I suggest that my SUV towed better than many pickups. It was certainly safer. And I never had to resort to calling those pickup drivers ignorant.

[Bobbo]

Originally Posted by jcl

The payload label was artificially low, but the true payload, arrived at by weighing the vehicle and subtracting that from the GVWR, was quite a bit higher.

This statement, all by itself, is frightening.

[B.trudeau]

Originally Posted by SallyForth

The point they are making is all tires have a fixed amount traction, in this case lateral forces are the issue. A low profile tire provides less feedback of lateral forces to the driver allowing them to unknowingly approach total loss of traction.

Personally, I consider the higher profile of stock truck tires part of the suspension system, and I am puzzled why some truck owners or dealers will swap out stock tires for extremely low profile tires to obtain a certain look.

well because people are ignorant, stupid and they like to follow trend! tire size, compounds, side armature are engineered to work with the triangulation of the wheels, messing around with these perimeters invalid all numbers! here in Quebec I see 3/4 ton truck with spacers all over the place, little they know this destroy the truck!

[B.trudeau]

Originally Posted by jcl

3500 lbs is a common receiver rating. I had an SUV with a hitch like that. But strengthening the receiver can improve it. Certainly the vehicle was far more capable than the stock receiver. I didn’t need different tires. Or airbags. The payload label was artificially low, but the true payload, arrived at by weighing the vehicle and subtracting that from the GVWR, was quite a bit higher. And I suggest that my SUV towed better than many pickups. It was certainly safer. And I never had to resort to calling those pickup drivers ignorant.

ignorant not in a bad sense, in the sense they ignore the information (Or they've been told otherwise) and think what they do is right!(I'm French might not use the right word? No offense but re-enforcing a hitch by welding extra parts to it further diminish the payload and even if your class 3 hitch can take it your SUV as a whole cannot!, Your SUV, its suspension, engine, brakes, options, weight all have been engineered as one, modifying a hitch is only one of multiple thing engineer consider in your payload calculation, you may find throughout your calculation that your Payload was artificially lowered but IMO one still need to go for the number on the door sill, In my owner manual its written all over the place in RED, Never exceed payload rating! This said, this man towing its 27 with a Lexus 450H is ok until things goes wrong! if that wrong happen in the US well...? I've said it in the threads previously, people are free to tow with whatever TV they like! at the end of the day one is responsible for its safety and everyone around!

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Bobbo

This statement, all by itself, is frightening.

I don’t understand what you would be frightened of.

The GVWR is what it is. See the door jamb label. The curb weight, with fuel and driver allowance, eg the same conditions the FMVSS use, was determined from a trip to the scales. Those two figures provided an actual calculated payload capacity.

The manufacturer of that vehicle, an SUV, had a variety of potential option weights to consider. They took an easier approach than varying the payload labels for each specific vehicle variant; they nominated a conservative payload that all variants would meet, printed it in their sales literature, and put it on all the door jamb labels. As such, all vehicles matched the sales literature. No need to call dealers to find out what the label on any one vehicle said.

We can only speculate as to their motives, but the simplest assumption is that they didn’t consider payload to be a marketing feature.

Is the above frightening?

[jcl]

Originally Posted by B.trudeau

ignorant not in a bad sense, in the sense they ignore the information (Or they've been told otherwise) and think what they do is right!(I'm French might not use the right word? No offense but re-enforcing a hitch by welding extra parts to it further diminish the payload and even if your class 3 hitch can take it your SUV as a whole cannot!, Your SUV, its suspension, engine, brakes, options, weight all have been engineered as one, modifying a hitch is only one of multiple thing engineer consider in your payload calculation, you may find throughout your calculation that your Payload was artificially lowered but IMO one still need to go for the number on the door sill, In my owner manual its written all over the place in RED, Never exceed payload rating! This said, this man towing its 27 with a Lexus 450H is ok until things goes wrong! if that wrong happen in the US well...? I've said it in the threads previously, people are free to tow with whatever TV they like! at the end of the day one is responsible for its safety and everyone around!

You don’t know what the vehicle can manage, you are assuming. The best way to confirm vehicle capacity is with scales.

My payload was determined with the label on the door jamb, specifically, the GVWR label.

If a vehicle meets all the vehicle numbers except the one on the receiver, then putting a different and stronger receiver on the vehicle can be a valid approach. That is why they sell aftermarket receivers.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by B.trudeau

ignorant not in a bad sense, in the sense they ignore the information (Or they've been told otherwise) and think what they do is right!(I'm French might not use the right word? No offense but re-enforcing a hitch by welding extra parts to it further diminish the payload and even if your class 3 hitch can take it your SUV as a whole cannot!, Your SUV, its suspension, engine, brakes, options, weight all have been engineered as one, modifying a hitch is only one of multiple thing engineer consider in your payload calculation, you may find throughout your calculation that your Payload was artificially lowered but IMO one still need to go for the number on the door sill, In my owner manual its written all over the place in RED, Never exceed payload rating! This said, this man towing its 27 with a Lexus 450H is ok until things goes wrong! if that wrong happen in the US well...? I've said it in the threads previously, people are free to tow with whatever TV they like! at the end of the day one is responsible for its safety and everyone around!

How true that...and if you have had your tow vehicle "modified" to haul a bigger load, by "beefing up" your hitch area, so you can tow outside of your vehicle original "max payload" rating. Should something fail due to towing beyond original Mfg. specs..."who you gonna call"?

[jcl]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

How true that...and if you have had your tow vehicle "modified" to haul a bigger load, by "beefing up" your hitch area, so you can tow outside of your vehicle original "max payload" rating. Should something fail due to towing beyond original Mfg. specs..."who you gonna call"?

The usual modification is to the receiver, not the vehicle. Typically it is to reinforce the mounting system to better manage the forces created from the use of WD equipment. Which many of us would argue makes the combination safer than not using WD equipment.

This doesn’t impact payload or what you can haul, leaving aside the slight weight of the reinforcement, rather it impacts what you can tow.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by jcl

The usual modification is to the receiver, not the vehicle. Typically it is to reinforce the mounting system to better manage the forces created from the use of WD equipment. Which many of us would argue makes the combination safer than not using WD equipment.

This doesn’t impact payload or what you can haul, leaving aside the slight weight of the reinforcement, rather it impacts what you can tow.

Says you...and who are you? How does one "certify" modifying beyond OEM mfg. limits, and get it recertified for heavier load and safety?? How about all the other items which were selected based on the OEM limits of that vehicle, prior to the modification? Who is at fault here, should something fail; owner or someone here on the Forum suggesting it's ok? Just checking...

[jcl]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Says you...and who are you? How does one "certify" modifying beyond OEM mfg. limits, and get it recertified for heavier load and safety?? How about all the other items which were selected based on the OEM limits of that vehicle, prior to the modification? Who is at fault here, should something fail; owner or someone here on the Forum suggesting it's ok? Just checking...

First, consider that tow ratings and payload ratings are two different things. Strengthening the receiver is about towing, not hauling cargo.

I never suggesting certifying a tow rating. The tow ratings that are published are certainly not certified. Some manufacturers follow the SAE J2807 test procedure guidelines, but those are entirely optional, and in any case the testing is all done by the manufacturers and self-reported. Pretty much the opposite of certification. And if you want to consider them certifications, then you need to address the elephant in the room, namely that they do not call for towing travel trailers, let alone Airstreams, and they only consider operation on a climb up to 40 mph. If you think of the tow rating as a certified rating, then exceeding the certified speed limit would certainly invalidate the rating.

My last two tow vehicles didn't have tow ratings published by the manufacturer, either in the owner's manual, the technical literature, or the door jamb. Yet the manufacturer sold a receiver hitch for each vehicle, through their parts department, and specific to each model, and it included a label to be affixed to the receiver that said that receiver had a rating. Not the vehicle.

Methinks thou dost protest too much.

[Bobbo]

Originally Posted by jcl

I don’t understand what you would be frightened of.

The GVWR is what it is. See the door jamb label. The curb weight, with fuel and driver allowance, eg the same conditions the FMVSS use, was determined from a trip to the scales. Those two figures provided an actual calculated payload capacity.

You are assuming that the payload rating is come to ONLY by subtracting the vehicle weight from the GVWR. It is dangerous to assume that the manufacturer had NO other considerations when arriving at the payload rating.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Bobbo

You are assuming that the payload rating is come to ONLY by subtracting the vehicle weight from the GVWR. It is dangerous to assume that the manufacturer had NO other considerations when arriving at the payload rating.

So you don’t agree with the FMVSS definition that refers to the information on the door jamb label?

[FMSports]

I've got $200K sitting on a couple of cheesy Dexter axles with place-your-bets trailer tires (225/75R15!!), located right beside each other, so one can take the other out when it blows, is rated at 7600 GVWR... "sticker "
Go to a 30 and that's 8800lbs on 225/75 R16s.

A market 1/2 ton TV with beefy 275/60R20's and 4000lbs certified per axle rating with proper springs and shocks, is supporting a total GVWR of 7000lbs.

So what I am worried about?

[Bobbo]

Originally Posted by jcl

So you don’t agree with the FMVSS definition that refers to the information on the door jamb label?

I realize my limitations. I realize that I don't know enough to agree or disagree. I realize that I don't know enough to second guess the vehicle manufacturer. I realize that I am not willing to risk my family's welfare to my guesswork. I suspect that some don't know their limitations. YMMV.

[B.trudeau]

Originally Posted by jcl

You don’t know what the vehicle can manage, you are assuming. The best way to confirm vehicle capacity is with scales.

My payload was determined with the label on the door jamb, specifically, the GVWR label.

If a vehicle meets all the vehicle numbers except the one on the receiver, then putting a different and stronger receiver on the vehicle can be a valid approach. That is why they sell aftermarket receivers.

You are right I don't Know...but you are wrong because I don't assume, I never do!, that is why I rely on MFG notification and that notification is stamped on the door jam, passenger and cargo should never exceed this much load! lots of RV dealer claim to be specialist, and they will do whatever it takes to sell you one of their trailer...after doing all the work like beefing up your receiver and replacing your tires with low profile tire, do you get a signed certification from the dealer stating that this installation is ok to ignore MFG Notice and instruction and fine to go on the road with a trailer that goes beyond your tv ratings? are they liable as per the law for their installation? the specialist of Trailer is YOU and you only should know what you are capable of towing with the number on your door jam simple as that! you can interpret numbers all day long but at the end of the day you are responsible for your safety and the safety of people around you!