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Old 06-15-2020, 07:32 PM   #401
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Gvwr, gawr’s!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
Tongue weight is not direct mass. Looking at the arrow the mass is maybe 5 lbs at most. The balance of tongue weight is torque generated.
Guys, the real test (besides towing) is to go to the CAT scales and compare measurements with your TV GVWR AND GAWR’s, as well as your axle ratings on the AS. Those measurements take all the physics you’ve been discussing into account.

Just my 2c worth.

Jim
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Old 06-15-2020, 07:38 PM   #402
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Yes...You must know the numbers to get the best results.🤓

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Old 06-15-2020, 07:50 PM   #403
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Yep, the scales have been mentioned many times, but some people don't seem to want to trust them. The physics explain why the results at the scale are the way they are. The OEM numbers, however, include comfort, image, and and licensing considerations in addition technical limits.
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Old 06-15-2020, 07:57 PM   #404
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Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
If tongue weight is part of cargo, and since it is not direct mass but is instead a load generated by torque
Put the tongue on a scale. The weight you read acts like direct mass, no matter what you want to call it. Therefore, it has to be treated as direct mass. The tongue weight, all of it, is therefore cargo and must be included in the payload calculation.
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Old 06-15-2020, 08:17 PM   #405
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Honestly bobbo I don't know why you're trying to school a degreed engineer in statics. I know the difference between mass and torque generated loads.

If a torque moment must be added to cargo, then the only rational and consistent thing to do for a second torque moment in the opposite direction is to subtract it. to verify this, simply drive the set-up to the scales and "weigh" it as KK4ZY suggested.
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Old 06-15-2020, 08:49 PM   #406
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BayouBiker is right on this. We’re talking about forces and moments here. If, through a moment you transfer some of the force from the TV rear wheels to the front and to the AS, That’s it. Go to the scales and play with the hitch settings if they’ll let you do it.

However with all that said, I don’t think you can generally count on transferring a LOT of weight to the trailer to fix a TV overweight Problem. Maybe 150-200 lbs?

For the sake of simplicity, and to be conservative, just start by assuming that your entire tongue weight will be on the TV, then look at what you want to load up in the truck. But go to the scales Loaded up....that’s where you’ll find truth ��.

This is coming from a retired engineer who spent the majority of his career in test & measurement.
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Old 06-15-2020, 09:14 PM   #407
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1200lb TW, scale
Weight increase on rear axle w/o wd ,1920.
860lb receiver wt with WD set
560 to the FA
160 to the AS
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Old 06-15-2020, 10:31 PM   #408
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Well I know this is what you’ve been telling me, but here it is, in black-and-white, directly out of the Ford owners manual: Pay particular attention to the last sentence:

Payload
Payload is the combined weight of cargo and passengers that your vehicle is carrying. The maximum payload for your vehicle appears on the Tire and Loading label. The label is either on the B-pillar or the edge of the driver door. Vehicles exported outside the US and Canada may not have a tire and loading label. Look for “The combined weight of occupants and cargo should never exceed XXX kg OR XXX lb” for maximum payload. The payload listed on the Tire and Loading Information label is the maximum payload for your vehicle as built by the assembly plant. If you install any additional equipment on your vehicle, you must determine the new payload. Subtract the weight of the equipment from the payload listed on the Tire and Loading label. When towing, trailer tongue weight or king pin weight is also part of payload.


So I traded my Raptor in on a F250 diesel today...
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Old 06-15-2020, 11:57 PM   #409
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If you really want a truck to tow with that has the power you need and the braking power needed, just spend 200k for a 377 or 389 Peterbuilt with a 550 hp Cat backed with either an 18 sp man or a 10 sp auto and a Jake brake. No need for a WDH either. Pulling even the largest AS it would not be needed. TV would out weigh the trailer as some hove said the case needs to be.

Now how many realize that when the F150 and the F250 are built, they can go down the line right behind each other. They are made in the same plants, Chevy/GMC are the same way along with RAM. I did do a little research before I decided to type this. Back when my TV was built the biggest difference was the front hubs and the rear axles. Rear Springs between 1/2t and 3/4t were the same spring with the exception of the light weight 1/2t and the HD 3/4t/ LW 1/2t used 3+1 spring and the HD 3/4t used a 5+1 spring (same as the 1t). Most used the 4+1 spring packs including the 1 ton's. The 6 lug 1/2t rear axle and the 3/4t 6 lug axles were the same axles. the 1t single rear tire and 3/4t 8 lug axles were the same also. In my search I found there is not enough parts in the parts stores yet to determine if the springs are the same in the new/newer trucks yet. But I be willing to bet the weights per spring will be the same between the 1/2t and 3/4t making the axles and hubs being the biggest difference between them. Engine wise a 5.7 is a 5.7 no matter if it is in a 1/5t or a 1t. Now I know some companies do not put a small V8 in the bigger truck but that was just an example.
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Old 06-16-2020, 12:26 AM   #410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsydad View Post
You didn't say...gas or diesel on your new TV?
Diesel. Couldn't find a gas model with the extras I wanted, which I assumed might have been a result of the GM strike. Luckily the deal I got put me in the price range of what I expected to pay for the gas motor.
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Old 06-16-2020, 03:37 AM   #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KK4YZ View Post
Guys, the real test (besides towing) is to go to the CAT scales and compare measurements with your TV GVWR AND GAWR’s, as well as your axle ratings on the AS. Those measurements take all the physics you’ve been discussing into account.

Just my 2c worth.

Jim
You are absolutely correct! The the TV GVW will increase by the amount of tongue weight applied to it. Brian I’m real surprised by you being lost by this. Stop drinking the CanAm koolaid.
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Old 06-16-2020, 06:05 AM   #412
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KK4YZ, Bob and I are making the same argument. We are all saying that final axle weight and distribution when all is said and done is what matters and the scale with tell you exactly where you're at.

We are also confirming that from a stability, safety and performance perspective, it is best to place as much gear in the tow vehicle as it is competently capable of accepting so it's best to go right to the limit.
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Old 06-16-2020, 06:14 AM   #413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV4Mark View Post
.

So I traded my Raptor in on a F250 diesel today...

Congrats enjoy the new truck. Did you get a
Tremor? Keep that full off road capability .
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Old 06-16-2020, 07:18 AM   #414
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KK4YZ, Bob and I are making the same argument. We are all saying that final axle weight and distribution when all is said and done is what matters and the scale with tell you exactly where you're at.
Which is, not at all, the argument I am making. I am going to make this simple. We are helping new people learn how to tow safely. Telling them they can safely disregard part of their tongue weight is dangerous. Very dangerous.
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Old 06-16-2020, 07:22 AM   #415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV4Mark View Post
Well I know this is what you’ve been telling me, but here it is, in black-and-white, directly out of the Ford owners manual: Pay particular attention to the last sentence:

Payload
Payload is the combined weight of cargo and passengers that your vehicle is carrying. The maximum payload for your vehicle appears on the Tire and Loading label. The label is either on the B-pillar or the edge of the driver door. Vehicles exported outside the US and Canada may not have a tire and loading label. Look for “The combined weight of occupants and cargo should never exceed XXX kg OR XXX lb” for maximum payload. The payload listed on the Tire and Loading Information label is the maximum payload for your vehicle as built by the assembly plant. If you install any additional equipment on your vehicle, you must determine the new payload. Subtract the weight of the equipment from the payload listed on the Tire and Loading label. When towing, trailer tongue weight or king pin weight is also part of payload.


So I traded my Raptor in on a F250 diesel today...
Good move on the trade! Note that the Ford statement doesn’t address weight distributing hitches. That’s OK. They’re being conservative in their approach. Enjoy your PowerStroke! We’re enjoying ours.
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Old 06-16-2020, 09:26 AM   #416
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Which is, not at all, the argument I am making. I am going to make this simple. We are helping new people learn how to tow safely. Telling them they can safely disregard part of their tongue weight is dangerous. Very dangerous.
It is not dangerous in any way in determining actual payload, it improves safety and stability to use all available vehicle payload capacity while towing. It is not dangerous to improve safety margins. Tongue weight limits of course must be honored for hitch and towing limits. If the OEM provides a tongue limit, it must not be disregarded.
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Old 06-16-2020, 03:56 PM   #417
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Diesel. Couldn't find a gas model with the extras I wanted, which I assumed might have been a result of the GM strike. Luckily the deal I got put me in the price range of what I expected to pay for the gas motor.
I am sure you will be pleased with the control and performance when towing; I know I am; ( and so is wife!) I miss the F150 EB when i had my 25's, for driving around town, oil changes, etc., but payload sucked. The F250 6.7L with our 28' is very nice on the highway and auto engine braking in tow haul is amazing...just a bit of a burden around town, bit more in fuel and maintenance...
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Old 06-16-2020, 04:55 PM   #418
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Bayou, KK4YZ, and Bob: Thanks for the explanations and more nuanced views. Makes more sense to me to me now.
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Old 06-16-2020, 05:27 PM   #419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlvrTwinkie View Post
If you really want a truck to tow with that has the power you need and the braking power needed, just spend 200k for a 377 or 389 Peterbuilt with a 550 hp Cat backed with either an 18 sp man or a 10 sp auto and a Jake brake. No need for a WDH either. Pulling even the largest AS it would not be needed. TV would out weigh the trailer as some hove said the case needs to be.

Now how many realize that when the F150 and the F250 are built, they can go down the line right behind each other. They are made in the same plants, Chevy/GMC are the same way along with RAM. I did do a little research before I decided to type this. Back when my TV was built the biggest difference was the front hubs and the rear axles. Rear Springs between 1/2t and 3/4t were the same spring with the exception of the light weight 1/2t and the HD 3/4t/ LW 1/2t used 3+1 spring and the HD 3/4t used a 5+1 spring (same as the 1t). Most used the 4+1 spring packs including the 1 ton's. The 6 lug 1/2t rear axle and the 3/4t 6 lug axles were the same axles. the 1t single rear tire and 3/4t 8 lug axles were the same also. In my search I found there is not enough parts in the parts stores yet to determine if the springs are the same in the new/newer trucks yet. But I be willing to bet the weights per spring will be the same between the 1/2t and 3/4t making the axles and hubs being the biggest difference between them. Engine wise a 5.7 is a 5.7 no matter if it is in a 1/5t or a 1t. Now I know some companies do not put a small V8 in the bigger truck but that was just an example.
Yeah. The F150 and F250/350 have different engines, transmissions, frames and suspensions. Other than that, they’re identical 😂
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Old 06-16-2020, 05:30 PM   #420
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So I guess a 1/2-ton truck is enough

Quote:
Originally Posted by KK4YZ View Post
Yeah. The F150 and F250/350 have different engines, transmissions, frames and suspensions. Other than that, they’re identical


Well they are all Fords.
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