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Old 04-16-2020, 06:57 AM   #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DewTheDew View Post
I have discovered something! These long truck threads are more entertaining if you read backwards! Start at the last post and go back and it is much more interesting.

The issue is never tow capacity or power, it is payload. I maxed payload and GVWR on my F150 because we bought the Platinum with all the doo dads. Could I have made it work? Probably. But I don't like to push tolerances so I moved up to a 3/4 ton and am now comfortably within all specs.
Your takeaway that it's never about tow capacity and always about payload is a great insight!

It's due to a difference in factors affecting the two limits. Payload is primarily due to physical and performance limits of the vehicle's structural and suspension components and these are generally hard limits that cannot be compensated or traded, so it's easy for everyone to agree on those limits. On the other hand towing limits generally are a result of the vehicle's ability to safely manage the load being towed and those are dynamic limits strongly influenced by speed, weather and road conditions. As many have pointed out you can tow a trailer with a bicycle if you are willing to go slowly enough and road weather conditions allow.

This allows people to successfully tow large trailers with undersized and under performing vehicles by being careful (and driving slow) or lucky. They then come to these threads and report their successes which is all fine until their set-up fails.

When advocating for a smaller tow vehicle, the ultimate safe speed in adverse situations when it matters is not adequately addressed by those advocating and since they vary, you can't hold anyone to a single number. Most don't even know the limits for most adverse situations. Most are lucky enough to learn them by seat of the pants and compensate for hitting those limits by slowing down or slogging through on luck and a prayer. Those who slow down make themselves a hazard for the other vehicles on the road but those risk are deemed a problem for someone else and the issue is dismissed.

Also most situations discussed in the longer threads involve situations where the less capable vehicle, while perhaps not ideal, is adequate and safe for the job, so everyone's opinion is generally valid as is the case in this thread.

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Old 04-16-2020, 08:15 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by GettinAway View Post
Iím not saying itís ok to run your pickup overloaded, but my guess it itís done quite often. Iíve seen several half tons pulling goose necks. Iím always amazed and a bit shocked.
I wonder if many accidents are actually caused by running down the road a few hundred pounds over payload? I doubt very many. (But I am only guessing) I used to drive 50,000 miles a year. I did for 30+ years. Iíve driven by countless accidents, I just donít remember seeing many RVs in accidents period. I know they do happen, but they seem rare, and if I had to guess a lot could be prevented by more careful driving. (Speed and distraction)
Iím also aware of the legal issues always brought up, if youíre in a wreck and youíre overloaded etc..
I spend a lot of time on motorcycles so I guess Iím used to living with some risk in life. A few hundred pounds over payload is something I can live with. Certainly not worth the money and inconvenience of switching to 3/4 ton. If I could fit it in the garage, didnít blow up the budget, and the ride was the same, Iíd be more interested. In the meantime Iíll post here somewhere that Iím on the road and where Iím going so you guys can steer clear.
Fair assessment. As I mentioned, I drove my F150 Platinum 4x4 around pulling a 25' AS for 3 years, before I found out about payload....mine was only 1039lbs payload....I was also carrying canoe or kayaks, generator, etc...likely weighing in at 1400lbs+ and I did not speed...only issues I had were smoking brakes coming down a few grades...now I say "only" with tongue in cheek...it was not a plesent experience when that happened.

Looks like your Toyota and your 23' AS, are likely fine in the Payload area anyway...would guess with the 4x4 option, your around 1300lbs payload?
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Old 04-16-2020, 09:06 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by KK4YZ View Post
F150 with 2500 to 3000 lb payload?
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Originally Posted by HRTKD View Post
He must have the virus. He's out of his mind. I have just over 3K payload on my 1 ton truck.

Very uncommon but do-able. Will be an XL or XLT trim, with HDPP. I've seen reports on several - 2,600 - 3,071 lbs. Reported on F-150 forum thread "Post your payload".
From a recent post - 2019 3.5L Ecoboost Crewcab XLT with 301A and no other options beside HDPP.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.f15...93be90d8d2.jpg
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Old 04-16-2020, 09:40 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by SailorSam205 View Post
Very uncommon but do-able. Will be an XL or XLT trim, with HDPP. I've seen reports on several - 2,600 - 3,071 lbs. Reported on F-150 forum thread "Post your payload".
From a recent post - 2019 3.5L Ecoboost Crewcab XLT with 301A and no other options beside HDPP.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.f15...93be90d8d2.jpg
OK, I'll concede your point that the F-150 attached to that sticker can have 2,580 lbs of cargo capacity. That's a crap-load of capacity for a half ton truck, no doubt about it.

However (you knew there was going to be a rebuttal, right?), according to Ford's towing guide, the hitch is _probably_ rated for no more than 1,320 lbs of tongue weight. I based that on the max trailer capacity of 13,200 lbs (still an insane amount of trailer weight for a half ton truck, IMHO) and Ford's footnote that says, "Trailer tongue load weight should be 10% of total loaded trailer weight." That's a bit vague and it's not really a hitch rating, more of a guide to keep the trailer from swaying.

Is the receiver hitch of that F-150 really rated for that much tongue weight? If Ford is setting the trailer capacity that high, it must be. That would put that hitch as Class V. My prior half ton's receiver hitch was Class IV and rated for no more than 10,000 lbs when using a WDH.

When reviewing the 2019 towing guide I found it illuminating that Ford is now including the following verbiage in bold red letters at the top of each towing capacity table.
Quote:
Towing capability will be reduced based on trim series, option content and payload
Even on the Superduty forums, there have been plenty of people burned by looking at the towing capacity tables and thinking their Platinum truck with every possible option could tow X amount, when it was much less than that based on their actual cargo capacity and options configuration.

Link to the 2019 Ford Towing Guide where I pulled the ratings from:
https://www.fleet.ford.com/content/d...owingGuide.pdf
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Old 04-16-2020, 10:04 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by HRTKD View Post
Is the receiver hitch of that F-150 really rated for that much tongue weight? If Ford is setting the trailer capacity that high, it must be. That would put that hitch as Class V.

I just went out and looked at the sticker on my 2019 F-150. It is still a class IV (2" receiver) but has a WD rating of 13,200 lbs.

As I recall, to get a 3k CC you have to stay with a regular cab and 8' bed, and probably a 26 gal gas tank.
2019 and 2020 F-150s are now regularly getting CC of over 1,600 lbs. If the trend continues, the "normal" capacity may crack 2k in another year or so.

It is interesting. I expect many folks who continually push the larger trucks really aren't aware of what manufacturers are now putting out. I'm beginning to believe that current 1/2 tons are every bit as capable as the 1 tons from 8-10 years ago.
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Old 04-16-2020, 10:41 AM   #246
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I have to keep in mind that I'm on the AirStream forum when I post. It all blurs together sometimes. Context matters.

A half ton truck with almost any AirStream trailer, that's a no brainer. The reduced frontal area of an AirStream, along with a shorter profile and lower weight is a lot easier to pull than my current trailer (bumper pull toy hauler, 11K gvwr).

While my F-350 isn't a top of the line model (Lariat is middle of the road) I optioned it up to make it comfortable. 600 miles in one day? Yeah, I can do that. Even with all the options, the cargo capacity is just north of 3,200 lbs and I have the diesel engine. Without the diesel and a couple of options I would be close to 4K.

What some of us guys with the bigger trucks will argue is, just because you can (due to ratings), doesn't mean you should. I've been there, done that and have broken 1/2 ton suspension parts to show for trying to tow at the limits of my capacity.

Longevity also needs to be considered. A 1/2 ton truck towing at 90% capacity is likely to need more maintenance than a 3/4 ton truck towing at 50% capacity.
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Old 04-16-2020, 01:42 PM   #247
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I happily and safely tow my 28 foot airstream with a F150. Loaded for camping it's a couple hundred lbs under payload by CAT scales, a couple hundred pounds under hitch rating, and thousands of pounds under it's rated towing capacity. It's a 2017 model and so far about one third of total mileage is towing. It's a comfortable truck, handles the trailer nicely, and it fits in my garage.

So just because I can should I be towing with this truck? Some will say no. So I ask, just because a four door Camry seats five should you only use the front seats? Just because jets can fly across the ocean, should they not? Just because the ferry boat is rated for 150 passengers, should they not take that many?
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Old 04-16-2020, 03:10 PM   #248
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SailorSam205, on the topic of factory tow hitches: Many of them don't follow the industry standard hitch classes, rather they are often intermediate as is the case you mention where a Class IV industry standard hitch has a WD tongue limit of 1200 lb and WD GTW of up to 12,000, but industry also has a 2 in receiver Class V xtra duty with a max tongue weight of 2,550. I suppose Ford may be following the xtra duty standard for the hitch but de-rating capacity due to a non hitch related limit.

ks-cherzi, some of your analogies fit better than others, but as far as suggesting your combination is less than safe, I would not make that claim. You have a nice safe weight with some heft to your tow vehicle which is good, you have a medium to long wheelbase which is good and if you have some good stiff walled LT tires which I assume you do, then the physics are on your side. As your experience indicates you have a capable system that can haul at safe highway speeds so you are not a hazard to yourself or others.

Camp on!
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Old 04-16-2020, 03:40 PM   #249
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SailorSam205, on the topic of factory tow hitches: Many of them don't follow the industry standard hitch classes, rather they are often intermediate as is the case you mention where a Class IV industry standard hitch has a WD tongue limit of 1200 lb and WD GTW of up to 12,000, but industry also has a 2 in receiver Class V xtra duty with a max tongue weight of 2,550. I suppose Ford may be following the xtra duty standard for the hitch but de-rating capacity due to a non hitch related limit.
Call a spade a spade. None of the manufacturers appear to follow the industry standard, which is defined by SAE, a standards organization that all manufacturers work with. SAE's trailer coupling standard has been around since the early 1960s.

A Class IV hitch tops out at 10,000 lbs according to SAE. There is no such thing as an SAE Class V hitch. There are no SAE J684 ratings for hitches over 10,000 lbs.

Three different hitch receiver manufactures claim 10,000, 12,000, and 14,000 lb ratings for their own Class IV hitches, highlighting the lack of adherence to published standards.
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Old 04-16-2020, 05:43 PM   #250
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Choose one....it's not JUST rating, design counts for a lot.
Especially when transferring weight.
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Old 04-16-2020, 07:21 PM   #251
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Call a spade a spade. None of the manufacturers appear to follow the industry standard, which is defined by SAE, a standards organization that all manufacturers work with. SAE's trailer coupling standard has been around since the early 1960s.

A Class IV hitch tops out at 10,000 lbs according to SAE. There is no such thing as an SAE Class V hitch. There are no SAE J684 ratings for hitches over 10,000 lbs.

Three different hitch receiver manufactures claim 10,000, 12,000, and 14,000 lb ratings for their own Class IV hitches, highlighting the lack of adherence to published standards.
I find this confusing. Does the membership of the social club the "Society of Automotive Engineers" make up the industry, or is the body of manufacturers the industry? Is it acceptable for manufacturers to agree on strength requirements and then market and sell a hitch much stronger and more capable than an outdated standard defined by a (very qualified) social club and call it a Class V hitch? I think so.
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Old 04-16-2020, 07:22 PM   #252
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Choose one....it's not JUST rating, design counts for a lot.
Especially when transferring weight.
Design counts for a lot more than the rating. That is very evident in your photos. I would have taken off the stock receiver as well.

It is just like with tow vehicles. Design and capability matter much more than marketing labels and manufacturer ratings.
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Old 04-16-2020, 07:26 PM   #253
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I find this confusing. Does the membership of the social club the "Society of Automotive Engineers" make up the industry, or is the body of manufacturers the industry? Is it acceptable for manufacturers to agree on strength requirements and then market and sell a hitch much stronger and more capable than an outdated standard defined by a (very qualified) social club and call it a Class V hitch? I think so.
You betray your feelings when you call the SAE a social club. Were or are you a member? It is a professional organization that promotes standards. Some good, some not so good, but at least they are standards.

It shouldn't need to be said, but industry standards are most valuable when they are in fact measured in consistent ways. Numbers that come from "industry" but don't follow any standard can't by definition be industry standards. They are marketing claims, though some may in fact be valid or useful.

Interesting to me that so many posters put stock in the SAE tow rating standard, which is very limited in its scope, but don't acknowledge receiver rating standards.
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Old 04-16-2020, 07:28 PM   #254
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SAE is a college fraternity. They had the best parties.
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Old 04-16-2020, 07:34 PM   #255
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Is it acceptable for manufacturers to agree on strength requirements and then market and sell a hitch much stronger and more capable than an outdated standard defined by a (very qualified) social club and call it a Class V hitch? I think so.
IMO, no. The labels Class 2, 3, and 4 were taken. To assign the label Class 5 is theft of intellectual property. By all means call it a stronger receiver, rated by the hitch manufacturer for 15,000 lbs, if that is what a manufacturer wants to do. But don't pretend that rating is anything other than a manufacturer's secret assessment.

It is like if I developed a new motor oil and wanted to market it. Lets say I think it is better than 5-30, so I call it 5-150. That is obviously better, by a factor of five. But there is value in having 5w-30 oils meet a standard.

Another example is horsepower. The fact that we measure it in consistent ways (at least in North America, where we use SAE hp standards) is important. How about if Ford redefined hp as Ford HP, or fhp. Forget flywheel, it is a better hp! They could have their own hp figures that couldn't be compared to other manufacturers. What could possibly go wrong?
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Old 04-16-2020, 07:36 PM   #256
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SAE is a college fraternity. They had the best parties.
I belonged to the one that wasn't a fraternity, as an associate member. It was valuable. We didn't get parties, just technical meetings. Guess I missed out.
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Old 04-16-2020, 07:41 PM   #257
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I am and have been a member of several mechanical and chemical engineering societies over the years. They all are social clubs and they all publish design standards mostly to make their group more relevant. Some standards are adopted by the industries that employ the members, some not so much, seems to depend mostly on what issues the standards address.
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Old 04-17-2020, 03:27 AM   #258
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Below are a few quotes directly from the standard. Few understand the true purpose of it and manufacturers don’t help consumers in that regard. As demonstrated here on this forum, most consumers don’t have the knowledge and understanding of towing dynamics to make a educated decision for they’re specific needs. They take the tow ratings literally and think they can apply it for any trailer type and situation. The TWR established with that standard only applies for that specific trailer under those specific conditions outlined in the standard. Once you change trailers and the conditions the manufacturers TWR no longer applies.

“This document defines procedures and requirements to determine Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) and calculate corresponding Trailer Weight Rating (TWR) for any tow-vehicle. These procedures will establish consistent rating requirements and processes so end users (customers) can reasonably compare similar class models in terms of trailering ability.“

“This document establishes tow-vehicle performance requirements for combination vehicle acceleration, gradeability, understeer, trailer sway response, braking and park brake at GCWR, and tow-vehicle hitch/attachment structure at TWR. In order to minimize test variations, it provides standard test trailer specifications and requirements for use in these tests. It is acknowledged that there are a wide variety of conditions experienced while trailering which cannot be completely addressed within this document and in no way is this document intended to establish or limit manufacturers’ designs or instructions to the customer. This document provides equations to determine TWR from GCWR in conjunction with other vehicle ratings and defined vehicle weight conditions and dimensions. Vehicles rated under this document are subject to normal production variation and it is intended that most vehicles of a specific model that is marketed as meeting SAE Recommended Practice J2807 shall meet the performance requirements in this standard.“
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Old 04-17-2020, 06:25 AM   #259
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Looks like your Toyota and your 23' AS, are likely fine in the Payload area anyway...would guess with the 4x4 option, your around 1300lbs payload?
Gypsydad,
First, I havenít changed the wording on my avatar to my 25í Globetrotter FBT. So, Iím actually pulling a 25. Much heavier tongue weight than the 23FB. Whatís weird is the 25 pulls better than my 23 did. At least as far as sway is concerned. The 23 wasnít bad, but I felt more push to the side when big trucks went by than I do with the 25. I switched hitches though with the 25 from a EZ on the 23 to a Blue Ox swaypro with the 25. So, low tongue weight with 23FB to high tongue weight with the 25FB. Gas mileage is the same. Sway reduced. However I felt the downward push of the tongue weight on undulating pavement sections. I increased the weight transfer on the hitch and it went away. No increase in sway. Feels better than the 23 did. (Just did 3,000 miles in Feb/Mar)
My door sticker says 1,3XX pounds. I donít remember exact number. I know I must be over, but havenít been to a scale. Everyone says the 25FB published tongue weight is under what actual numbers are. My wife and I 350 lbs (230 for me) add gear and kayak another 200. Bikes are on the back of the AS so subtract some.
It just pulls, stops, turns, rides so well. We drove through rain almost every day going to FL. I drive at 65-67 mph. Certainly not dangerously slow. I keep wanting to go to a scale once Iím fully loaded, but just havenít taken the time. Not sure Iíd change anything if I did go to the scale. I guess Iíd just have a hard number on how far over I am. Like I said in previous post, I can live with the risk. Itís working well. Certainly we are all wired differently as to risk tolerance. If there was instability I think Iíd feel it in high winds, or twisty hilly two lane back roads. I donít feel any. I certainly do not want to be a risk to fellow travelers. I just donít think I am.
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Old 04-17-2020, 06:26 AM   #260
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[QUOTE=jcl;2351718]Design counts for a lot more than the rating. That is very evident in your photos. I would have taken off the stock receiver as well.

It is just like with tow vehicles. Design and capability matter much more than marketing labels and manufacturer ratings.[/QUOT

YES...and note that the 'round bar' hitch was on a 2500.
My suggestion...get rid of them, poor design and they corrode/crack.
I hope that they are no longer being used on the newer GM vehicles.
Sadly we replaced quite a few here in WNY.
Replacing kind for kind was a poor remedy though and some customers opted for the upgrade.

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