Ram/Cummins DEF Failure

[jcl]

This is a general comment, not specific to any one brand or type of failure.

In older and simpler times, a component or system failure resulted in a shutdown of the engine. It was a brute force approach.

Limp mode is a strategy to allow some mobility while preserving the equipment. It is a benefit, not a problem. Defeating the limp mode risks potential equipment damage, depending on the nature of the component failure.

I had a limp mode occurrence related to direct fuel injection on a gasoline engine. I then had about 50% power. The limp mode was preserving the engine from thermal damage, partly by capping maximum turbo boost levels. I was happy to have limp mode, since the alternative would be a full shutdown and a tow.

An analogy is the low oil light on the dashboard. It can be defeated by taking out the bulb, or putting tape over it. But that risks engine damage related to the original reason the light came on.

If there are repeated failures related to an engine system such as DEF, it doesn’t mean that emission controls are bad in principle. It may mean that the vehicle may not in fact be ready for prime time, due to design or testing or manufacturing issues, and perhaps another vehicle would be a better choice.

[tjdonahoe]

Originally Posted by Mansderm161

Don't know if 100% accurate or if it pertains, but I fear the "limp mode." I was just at Mercedes getting my Interstate DEF topped off for a trip. They had told me "do not let DEF get too low as that causes emission problems." They also said most common reason for limp mode in the sprinter is plugged diesel particulate filter which is caused by bad biodiesel mixed gas.

....what? Bad biodiesel mixed gas...I wouldn’t put that in my ram...I have used biodiesel...never had a problem

[Mansderm161]

Maybe I didn't say that right. He said some diesel has "bad bio" stuff mixed in. I said I try to go with good brands like EXXON and Shell. He said it doesn't matter, sometimes its mixed in and you don't even know it. Before my diesel days, I pulled into a gas station in West Virginia. I commented to the guy across that I had gotten "bad gas" at one of their other stations so I always stop at this one. He said, doesn't matter...all the W. VA stations get gas from same source? So I guess you never really know what you are getting. My brother is involved with some of the quality control testing of fuels and he had told me to try and go with EXXON or Shell. So that's what I do, but it's not always an option.

[n2916s]

Originally Posted by Shermy1987

I think the point is being missed. Nothing is being over ridden.

The majority of codes are a result of mechanical or heat related failure such as a sensor failing to read correctly at operating temperature or in this case, a def pump failing. If the malfunction isn't a straight out electrical failure then the computer will not recognise any problems when the ignition is turned on. Therefore, you can clear the codes and get out of derate mode. Obviously the code will return when driving and you will wind up getting another derate at whatever the predetermined time frame is. However, you're not limping along allday trying to find a workshop.

As for if this works with the Titan or not. I haven't had any experience with Nissans, but I still suspect that the codes can be cleared with many quality aftermarket code readers. Obviously not some piece of junk brought from eBay. Or. As mentioned, adding a tuner to the Titan definitely will allow for this.

This is an excellent thing to know. Thanks for the expert advice.

[Adiredneck]

Originally Posted by Shermy1987

As a Cummins certified technician for over 10 years, I beg to differ.

I can't claim similar expertise; I just relate what I was told by the service technicians at three FCA dealers, as well as the diesel mechanics at Triple K Fleet Services in Harrisburg who tried to clear the codes. Doing so would've gotten me the remaining 350 miles to my destination - and saved a lot of hassle and expense...

[Adiredneck]

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

You can override with a tuner.

Curious: How would the tuner override the "permanent" code, as the mechanics all called it...?

[Adiredneck]

Originally Posted by out of sight

My 2018 RAM has a 5.5 gallon DEF tank. While towing I get about 3000 miles per tank. The rule of thumb is 2% DEF per gallon of fuel used. I fill up when it gets down to half a tank with 2.5 gallons from Walmart for $7.88. On a long trip I carry a 2.5 gallon jug with me. It's probably not necessary now but a few years ago I had a difficult time finding DEF in Canada.

I use the cheap stuff from Walmart in my 3.0 liter Mercedes too. Never had a problem. The Mercedes has a 7.5 gallon tank which lasts over 10,000 miles.

I once saw a pump in a truck stop that used the same hose for DEF and diesel. Keep away from that.

It wasn't that I ran out of DEF, I had filled up at a Love's in Tuscaloosa only 1,000 miles down the road. The final diagnosis was DEF pump failure. DEF fluid level and quality we can be diligent about, pump failure strands you on the side of the highway, diligence notwithstanding...

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by Adiredneck

Curious: How would the tuner override the "permanent" code, as the mechanics all called it...?

I have no clue how it works. Just know it does. See a good diesel guy for details.

[Adiredneck]

Originally Posted by jcl

This is a general comment, not specific to any one brand or type of failure.

In older and simpler times, a component or system failure resulted in a shutdown of the engine. It was a brute force approach.

Limp mode is a strategy to allow some mobility while preserving the equipment. It is a benefit, not a problem. Defeating the limp mode risks potential equipment damage, depending on the nature of the component failure.

I had a limp mode occurrence related to direct fuel injection on a gasoline engine. I then had about 50% power. The limp mode was preserving the engine from thermal damage, partly by capping maximum turbo boost levels. I was happy to have limp mode, since the alternative would be a full shutdown and a tow.

An analogy is the low oil light on the dashboard. It can be defeated by taking out the bulb, or putting tape over it. But that risks engine damage related to the original reason the light came on.

If there are repeated failures related to an engine system such as DEF, it doesn’t mean that emission controls are bad in principle. It may mean that the vehicle may not in fact be ready for prime time, due to design or testing or manufacturing issues, and perhaps another vehicle would be a better choice.

The thing is, being reduced to 5 mph still requires you call a special wrecker and get towed - continuing towards your destination at 5 mph on the shoulder of an interstate is suicide.


And, yes - if the limp mode was caused by low oil level or pressure, bad fuel injector, or some other mechanical factor that would affect the functioning or longevity of the engine, it would be a necessary "shot over the bow". But a failed DEF pump or other part of the exhaust-mounted emissions system has no adverse effect on the engine or drivetrain. No other part of the truck is impacted by less urea being sprayed into the exhaust. To arbitrarily impose a 150 mile disablement for such a malfunction that does not affect driveability or safety is a serious liability, especially when coupled to a problem-plagued system.



As stated previously, I support the intent; but the current "solution" is ludicrous.

[Adiredneck]

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

I have no clue how it works. Just know it does. See a good diesel guy for details.

Countryboy59 - Believe me, I've talked to several since this all happened. Every one *has* recommended installing a tuner - and a full delete!

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Adiredneck

As stated previously, I support the intent; but the current "solution" is ludicrous.

If you support the intent of not emitting high levels of exhaust emissions, whether for environmental, societal, public health, legal, or whatever reason, then you won’t install a tune. It is pretty black and white.

If the solution your vehicle manufacturer has designed and installed is ludicrous, then it may be a good idea not to own that vehicle. And to warn others considering that vehicle to proceed with caution.

Worth recalling that significant delays in the introduction of cleaner diesels were due in part to the regulator’s concern that users would defeat them. Installing a tune to defeat legal emissions controls just proves their point, and is likely to contribute to tighter regulations and the inclusion of more anti tamper devices in future.

[n2916s]

I am old enough to remember the entire Northeast Corridor under a brownish grey cloud of yuck almost continuously. Ditto for Southern California.

When flying into Miami from the southeast, even as recently as the 70's, we would encounter a lighter but omnipresent layer of that same haze, often as far as a hundred miles out.

Emission controls are complex, can and do fail and are a pain in the butt but they do work -- look out the window the next time you fly into MIA, JFK or LAX. Maybe it is just me, but defeating exhaust emissions for convenience seems, well, selfish.

[NCMEDIC]

My Cummins was one of the very last ones made without DEF, and all the other environmental gadgetry was lost "in an unfortunate boating accident" a few years back. Had to install a tuner to continue to utilize the Beast.

No regrets.

At the end of the day, it's about reliability and none of the "do gooders" are going to come get me when I'm stranded on the side of the road because some of that junk malfunctioned. We now have a much simpler, more reliable TV.

[jcl]

"At the end of the day, it's about me" summarizes the marketing approach of the tuner industry. Personal benefits ahead of societal impact. Their industry wouldn't exist otherwise.

[Adiredneck]

I think there are more factors than those mentioned by those who think it "black and white". For example, if you live near LAX, JFK, Miami, etc. and are driving your diesel daily (and are never 150 miles away from your dealer) - don't get a tuner. If you don't choose to live in a metropolitan area, and only use your truck for the purposes that it was intended for - and don't have several thousand dollars and weeks to spend on the side of a highway - get one. The Cummins without the DEF complied with Federal standards - it was California CARB that required DEF. I've never brought my truck or Airstream to Cali, and don't see that as a likelihood in the future. And I choose *not* to repeat my experience of last month. Do as you wish...

[NCMEDIC]

Our daily drivers are both electric, which should help balance our carbon footprint. LOL

The truck is only used for towing, and deleting the DPF and EGR system increased both reliability and performance. It’s perfectly legal in my state.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by NCMEDIC

Our daily drivers are both electric, which should help balance our carbon footprint. LOL

The truck is only used for towing, and deleting the DPF and EGR system increased both reliability and performance. It’s perfectly legal in my state.

DPF and EGR deletes aren’t about carbon footprint. They are about air quality and public health.

Interesting that you claim that Federal laws aren’t applicable in some states. Did you mean that it is unenforced in your state?

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Adiredneck

I think there are more factors than those mentioned by those who think it "black and white". For example, if you live near LAX, JFK, Miami, etc. and are driving your diesel daily (and are never 150 miles away from your dealer) - don't get a tuner. If you don't choose to live in a metropolitan area, and only use your truck for the purposes that it was intended for - and don't have several thousand dollars and weeks to spend on the side of a highway - get one. The Cummins without the DEF complied with Federal standards - it was California CARB that required DEF. I've never brought my truck or Airstream to Cali, and don't see that as a likelihood in the future. And I choose *not* to repeat my experience of last month. Do as you wish...

Those factors you list only come into play once you decide it’s OK to emit higher levels of exhaust emissions, because of a lack of personal concern for environmental, societal, public health, or legal reasons.

The vehicle you have was certified to a standard. If you don’t value that feature, then buy a vehicle that isn’t as clean. But we don’t get to decide to follow just the rules that appeal to us. “Do as you wish” is a good motto for choosing an afternoon activity. Less so for deciding to flaunt laws. Modifying a vehicle to increase emissions is illegal. One day, it will be seen in a similar light as DUI, dumping our trailer tanks in a campsite because dump stations are for other people, or throwing trash out the window while driving.

And it isn’t about California as a location, it is about CARB standards, which originated in California, but which apply in far more states than California. Including New York.

[Moflash]

Originally Posted by perryg114

Yes these EPA gadgets are a liability. Some of them even shorten the life of the engine during the DPF regen cycle not the mention the fact you are putting a highly corrosive substance into your exhaust. A diesel truck is an expensive toy now days. Once they are out of warranty they can be a BIG liability to own.



Perry

Do u own one? Or just a troll?

[Can of beans]

I understand the frustration of the New diesel emissions systems,
I have to design installations for them at work. The systems suck.

personally I own a Gasoline truck. it pulls my 31' fine.
Diesels are faster, newer trailers are heavier, I get it.



but remember defeating your emissions systems is a crime.

several of the Tuner companies have paid fines because they sold "off road only delete kits". Clearly enforcement is not going to come after every person, or probably any one individual. another think to keep in mind however, is that you paid for a up-charge to get that diesel engine, you buy typically more expensive fuel, and your maintenance and service costs are higher. This is a choice any diesel truck owner made. sure you get a bit better mileage, anecdotally, and you can go up a hill quite a bit faster.